Re: Re: LSBPS issues update
Bingo, that was it. The LM317 and the LM337 were reversed. Bizzare since I remember thinking to myself, when looking at the schematic initially, 'I musn't get them back to front' and then somehow did. Constant interruptions whilst working can do it every time! Or maybe new glasses.
Many thanks.
Russ White said:
Bingo, that was it. The LM317 and the LM337 were reversed. Bizzare since I remember thinking to myself, when looking at the schematic initially, 'I musn't get them back to front' and then somehow did. Constant interruptions whilst working can do it every time! Or maybe new glasses.
Many thanks.
Dac to Ballsie Wiring
For a single ended output
On the Dac I have (out)
Right Left
- G + + G -
On the Ballsie I have IN1 (also IN2 do I need to use both?)
+ + G - -
Out1 (also Out2 do I need to use both?)
+ SE GND -
a. What needs to go where. Is there a diagram somewhere
b. Also what would it be for Dual Mono
On another tack,
c. Would I get increased output from using a two DAC configuration, ignoring the Ballsie for a moment?
d. Would the dual DAC configuration benefit from using a separate transformer and LCPS to supply the digital for both modules and the analogue for both DAC's from another transformer and LCPS?
e. Does anyone have any kits for a valve output stage for the DAC's or perhaps transformer/valve output stage. (My ancient CD player has a valve power supply and a transformer / valve output and sounds very good.)
I'm currently using a TVC as passive pre and I'm seeing DC on the output of the Ballsie (minus extra filter caps) which you are not supposed to do with TVC's (OK it is very small.) Also gain is a bit low, even with Ballsie - which I may have connected up wrong hence above question.
Sorry about all the questions, just trying to get my head around everything.
For a single ended output
On the Dac I have (out)
Right Left
- G + + G -
On the Ballsie I have IN1 (also IN2 do I need to use both?)
+ + G - -
Out1 (also Out2 do I need to use both?)
+ SE GND -
a. What needs to go where. Is there a diagram somewhere
b. Also what would it be for Dual Mono
On another tack,
c. Would I get increased output from using a two DAC configuration, ignoring the Ballsie for a moment?
d. Would the dual DAC configuration benefit from using a separate transformer and LCPS to supply the digital for both modules and the analogue for both DAC's from another transformer and LCPS?
e. Does anyone have any kits for a valve output stage for the DAC's or perhaps transformer/valve output stage. (My ancient CD player has a valve power supply and a transformer / valve output and sounds very good.)
I'm currently using a TVC as passive pre and I'm seeing DC on the output of the Ballsie (minus extra filter caps) which you are not supposed to do with TVC's (OK it is very small.) Also gain is a bit low, even with Ballsie - which I may have connected up wrong hence above question.
Sorry about all the questions, just trying to get my head around everything.
Re: Dac to Ballsie Wiring
That is correct. But it is not single ended. The "+" is non-inverted signal the "-" is the inverted signal.
You need to you both, one for each channel. Right and left.
You only use one + and one - terminal per channel when using the DAC in standard stereo mode. When using it in mono mode you use both. Look at the Opus manual to see how to operate the DAC in mono mode. The ballsie has a small series resistance to help load the mono DAC evenly.
Yes you use both. For SE output you take SE and GND from each side. For balaced output (buffere and filtered by the ballsie) you take +,GND,- for each channel.
I am not sure the crux of this question. We have a few diagrams in the various manuals. I will work on getting the Ballsie manual completed. The most important parts of dual mono setup are covered in the Opus manual.
No you would get less, but that may not matter.
Not enough to worry about really, The Opus is basically tripple regulated (PS, DVREG, AVREG). I have actually run the whole thing (Opus, REC, Ballsie) on a single dual transformer and one LCBPS. The DAC and the REC are powered by the positive rail. The negative rail is only used for the ballsie.
I can be no help there. There is no output stage at all required so you could easily just go straight to a tube preamp if you want tube sound.
No worries.
Cheers!
Russ
rjbaldwin said:
That is correct. But it is not single ended. The "+" is non-inverted signal the "-" is the inverted signal.
rjbaldwin said:
You need to you both, one for each channel. Right and left.
You only use one + and one - terminal per channel when using the DAC in standard stereo mode. When using it in mono mode you use both. Look at the Opus manual to see how to operate the DAC in mono mode. The ballsie has a small series resistance to help load the mono DAC evenly.
rjbaldwin said:
Yes you use both. For SE output you take SE and GND from each side. For balaced output (buffere and filtered by the ballsie) you take +,GND,- for each channel.
rjbaldwin said:
I am not sure the crux of this question. We have a few diagrams in the various manuals. I will work on getting the Ballsie manual completed. The most important parts of dual mono setup are covered in the Opus manual.
rjbaldwin said:
No you would get less, but that may not matter.
rjbaldwin said:
Not enough to worry about really, The Opus is basically tripple regulated (PS, DVREG, AVREG). I have actually run the whole thing (Opus, REC, Ballsie) on a single dual transformer and one LCBPS. The DAC and the REC are powered by the positive rail. The negative rail is only used for the ballsie.
rjbaldwin said:
I can be no help there. There is no output stage at all required so you could easily just go straight to a tube preamp if you want tube sound.
rjbaldwin said:
No worries.
Cheers!
Russ
Thanks Russ, I had wired it up slightly wrongly.... sounds better now ;-)
Brian also mentioned via email, jumpering the Caps on the DAC to remove DC on the SE outputs of the Ballsie (for my TVC). I'm sure he will email and explain how to-do this, I will report back on how it all goes.
So what does the metronome do and do I want one? Currently
Mac->USB->-I2s->DAC->Ballsie->Pre Amp.
I think I may get an extra DAC and PS as well, mainly just because it has been so much fun so far. So thanks to you and Brian for doing all the hard work. Form my point of view it has definitely been worth it!
Brian also mentioned via email, jumpering the Caps on the DAC to remove DC on the SE outputs of the Ballsie (for my TVC). I'm sure he will email and explain how to-do this, I will report back on how it all goes.
So what does the metronome do and do I want one? Currently
Mac->USB->-I2s->DAC->Ballsie->Pre Amp.
I think I may get an extra DAC and PS as well, mainly just because it has been so much fun so far. So thanks to you and Brian for doing all the hard work. Form my point of view it has definitely been worth it!
Hi rjbaldwin,
If you use a TVC, why don't let it make the balanced to single-end conversion? This way Ballsie could be a "balanced" buffer for the DAC.
Plus, if you feed the TVC with the same DC offset on each end at the primary winding ,it should cancel out (provided it is equal DC).
That way you should have DC coupled balanced DAC: better S/N.
Sorry I don't know exactly the ballsie schematics.Correct me if I'm wrong
Bye,
M
PS: first make it play and then consider further tweaking
If you use a TVC, why don't let it make the balanced to single-end conversion? This way Ballsie could be a "balanced" buffer for the DAC.
Plus, if you feed the TVC with the same DC offset on each end at the primary winding ,it should cancel out (provided it is equal DC).
That way you should have DC coupled balanced DAC: better S/N.
Sorry I don't know exactly the ballsie schematics.Correct me if I'm wrong
Bye,
M
PS: first make it play and then consider further tweaking
Hi maxlorenz, I would have done it this way, but my TVC is single ended only - no inputs for balanced. A bit of an oversight from me when ordering. So currently I'm using the ballsie as it gives me a few more db. This morning if I get chance I intend to try it with and without Ballsie, play around with the filters and try and get to the setting I think give the best sound, at least for me.
First impressions suggest there seems to be quite a difference between slow roll off and normal roll off, just using the DAC jumpers. One gives you a much brighter, but I think slightly grainer?? sound with tighter bass - I'm thinking this is the quick roll off? (Not sure which it is though as I haven't yet figured out which is high and low on jumpers). The other setting is less treble, but perhaps more natural, although the bass seems a bit more diffuse. I'd be interested on anyone's comments about the optional filters for the Ballsie? (If you remove the jumper Russ/Brian is it no filter or just default? If so how do you combine it with the an optional Ballsie filter. Are then diagrams for the optional Ballsie filter? Also on the DAC I'm not sure what the de-emphasis jumper does?
I've got a pretty revealing system, apart from in the bass so it's a natural but detailed sound that I'm after (aren't we all).
(As a point of reference the system is Mac Mini to Dac and Ballsie with separate transformers for each. Wiring is what I had lying around, all stuck to an old shelf using bluetack...I do have a proper box honest...(but not as nice as Brians') -->
TVC --> Tube Buffer (247B power Supply / c-Core / 6n1p Valves)-->
Welborne 300B Terraplanes -->
Beauhorn B2.3 single driver no-crossover horn loudspeakers)
Test
1. With and without Ballsie
2. Main Dac filter settings
3. If I get the diagrams then the optional Ballsie filters
4. Dac without caps into Ballsie
By this time I will have used up the whole day... and be shouted at for not doing any of my other jobs...
First impressions suggest there seems to be quite a difference between slow roll off and normal roll off, just using the DAC jumpers. One gives you a much brighter, but I think slightly grainer?? sound with tighter bass - I'm thinking this is the quick roll off? (Not sure which it is though as I haven't yet figured out which is high and low on jumpers). The other setting is less treble, but perhaps more natural, although the bass seems a bit more diffuse. I'd be interested on anyone's comments about the optional filters for the Ballsie? (If you remove the jumper Russ/Brian is it no filter or just default? If so how do you combine it with the an optional Ballsie filter. Are then diagrams for the optional Ballsie filter? Also on the DAC I'm not sure what the de-emphasis jumper does?
I've got a pretty revealing system, apart from in the bass so it's a natural but detailed sound that I'm after (aren't we all).
(As a point of reference the system is Mac Mini to Dac and Ballsie with separate transformers for each. Wiring is what I had lying around, all stuck to an old shelf using bluetack...I do have a proper box honest...(but not as nice as Brians') -->
TVC --> Tube Buffer (247B power Supply / c-Core / 6n1p Valves)-->
Welborne 300B Terraplanes -->
Beauhorn B2.3 single driver no-crossover horn loudspeakers)
Test
1. With and without Ballsie
2. Main Dac filter settings
3. If I get the diagrams then the optional Ballsie filters
4. Dac without caps into Ballsie
By this time I will have used up the whole day... and be shouted at for not doing any of my other jobs...
On the DAC jumpers, the high setting is marked with a "+" at the top and bottom of the row of jumpers.
You should probably read the WM8740 data sheet to get a good idea what the jumper settings do, and how the actually effect things.
The Ballsie comes with filter caps (not installed) which simply form a low pass filter. If you install the caps, you have a filtered Ballsie. Personally, I find the filter unnecessary, but I included it for completeness since it is recommended in the data sheet circuits.
Now some important features/notes:
1) You will not have any DC offset from the SE outputs of the Ballsie whether you use the output caps of the DAC or not. So DC coupled or AC couple there will be no offset (or virtually none I should say).
2) The Wolfson data sheets are very easy to read. Even though the DAC is extremely easy to use. There is still a fair amount of research you will likely need to do yourself if you wish to tweak. This is why it is very much still a "DIY" endeavor. While I am very happy answering questions. I don't want to rewrite the data sheet.
3) DM0 has an internal pullup and it controls de-emphasis. High is 44.1Khz de-epmphasis. Low disables de-emphasis. Some (very very rare) CDs have a high freq emphasis. The de-eamphasis applies a filter to that nullifies this. If it is there the receiver will set a flag, you can use this flag disable/enable the de-emphasis. I just leave it off as if you have a CD that has it I will be shocked.
4) DM1 also has an internal pull-up. It sets the fast/slow roll-off. Low is for normal rolloff (steep) and high is for slow roll off. I set this low, as cleans up the most digital junk. But I have experimented with it both ways. Its very much a subjective thing I guess.
You should probably read the WM8740 data sheet to get a good idea what the jumper settings do, and how the actually effect things.
The Ballsie comes with filter caps (not installed) which simply form a low pass filter. If you install the caps, you have a filtered Ballsie. Personally, I find the filter unnecessary, but I included it for completeness since it is recommended in the data sheet circuits.
Now some important features/notes:
1) You will not have any DC offset from the SE outputs of the Ballsie whether you use the output caps of the DAC or not. So DC coupled or AC couple there will be no offset (or virtually none I should say).
2) The Wolfson data sheets are very easy to read. Even though the DAC is extremely easy to use. There is still a fair amount of research you will likely need to do yourself if you wish to tweak. This is why it is very much still a "DIY" endeavor. While I am very happy answering questions. I don't want to rewrite the data sheet.
3) DM0 has an internal pullup and it controls de-emphasis. High is 44.1Khz de-epmphasis. Low disables de-emphasis. Some (very very rare) CDs have a high freq emphasis. The de-eamphasis applies a filter to that nullifies this. If it is there the receiver will set a flag, you can use this flag disable/enable the de-emphasis. I just leave it off as if you have a CD that has it I will be shocked.
4) DM1 also has an internal pull-up. It sets the fast/slow roll-off. Low is for normal rolloff (steep) and high is for slow roll off. I set this low, as cleans up the most digital junk. But I have experimented with it both ways. Its very much a subjective thing I guess.
LCBPS issue update
Guys,
It does look like I have the LM317 and LM337 reversed, I'll correct that later today. Meanwhile I was getting impatient so I hooked up SE outputs from the DAC module. The sound is really nice, very clear and transparent, excellent imaging. I also tried the fast and slow rolloffs, I haven't had time to do much listening but so far I like the fast rolloff better, seems more transparent. The difference between the two rolloffs is surprising. Thanks for all your help.
PJN
Guys,
It does look like I have the LM317 and LM337 reversed, I'll correct that later today. Meanwhile I was getting impatient so I hooked up SE outputs from the DAC module. The sound is really nice, very clear and transparent, excellent imaging. I also tried the fast and slow rolloffs, I haven't had time to do much listening but so far I like the fast rolloff better, seems more transparent. The difference between the two rolloffs is surprising. Thanks for all your help.
PJN
Power-on/off noise?
I've got my opus running and it sound great. But --
I've got a loud "click" noise when I'm powering the Opus on/off(louder when on), the click is louder on one channel.
I'm using dual mono configuration with the ballsie without any the filter caps. And I've sorted the outputs on the dac boards like kstlfido did.
I'll take some pictures tomorrow, any ideas in the meanwhile?
I've got my opus running and it sound great. But --
I've got a loud "click" noise when I'm powering the Opus on/off(louder when on), the click is louder on one channel.
I'm using dual mono configuration with the ballsie without any the filter caps. And I've sorted the outputs on the dac boards like kstlfido did.
I'll take some pictures tomorrow, any ideas in the meanwhile?
Re: Power-on/off noise?
A small click is nearly unavoidable unless you decide to rig output relays or some such scheme. They should be completely harmless.
One thing I have noticed in my testing is that if you feed both VA and VD from the same PS (one half of a LCDPS) then the "off" click seems to be less. I believe this is because the VA and VD voltage will decay at (nearly) the same rate. if you allow VD to remain high while VA is going low you can indeed get some nasty noises.
Personally, have only rarely ever gotten a barely perceptible "on" click, mostly the turn on is silent.
I hope that helps.
Cheers!
Russ
SoapSeller said:
A small click is nearly unavoidable unless you decide to rig output relays or some such scheme. They should be completely harmless.
One thing I have noticed in my testing is that if you feed both VA and VD from the same PS (one half of a LCDPS) then the "off" click seems to be less. I believe this is because the VA and VD voltage will decay at (nearly) the same rate. if you allow VD to remain high while VA is going low you can indeed get some nasty noises.
Personally, have only rarely ever gotten a barely perceptible "on" click, mostly the turn on is silent.
I hope that helps.
Cheers!
Russ
Well after a bit of fiddling I ended up with DAC sans capacitors and with Ballsie sans extra filter capacitors. The Ballsie didn't seem to detract from the music, added some useful gain, at least in single ended mode and added a little 'punch' I thought with my and with my 300B's. It also enabled me to remove the caps from the DAC - which seemed best whilst minimising DC into my TVC. This seemed to give the best results going into my system (see previous post) your mileage may vary.
It really is rather good ;-) Fast, tight bass, clear treble and good clarity. Depth seems good but I wasn't so sure about width, but (big BUT) - my speaker placement is not ideal for this, so you should take this with a pinch of salt. (Also it could be the DAC is accurately reproducing what is on the recording!)
Compared to top flght kit, the DAC perhaps lacks a little air or transparency and a touch of fluidity - at least in my system. This is only very slight and I am talking about a CD/DAC in the £5000 (GBP) bracket, even if it is an old one.
So, yes, computer based replay can get pretty close to high end stuff. Now if I could just capture that extra bit of transparency/fluidity I'd be completely happy.
In any event, given the cost, it is a no-brainer. Thank you very much Russ and Brian. I will now be spending Sunday afternoon drilling out the metal chassis I have for it... and I haven't had so much fun doing audio DIY in a long time.
It really is rather good ;-) Fast, tight bass, clear treble and good clarity. Depth seems good but I wasn't so sure about width, but (big BUT) - my speaker placement is not ideal for this, so you should take this with a pinch of salt. (Also it could be the DAC is accurately reproducing what is on the recording!)
Compared to top flght kit, the DAC perhaps lacks a little air or transparency and a touch of fluidity - at least in my system. This is only very slight and I am talking about a CD/DAC in the £5000 (GBP) bracket, even if it is an old one.
So, yes, computer based replay can get pretty close to high end stuff. Now if I could just capture that extra bit of transparency/fluidity I'd be completely happy.
In any event, given the cost, it is a no-brainer. Thank you very much Russ and Brian. I will now be spending Sunday afternoon drilling out the metal chassis I have for it... and I haven't had so much fun doing audio DIY in a long time.
I just noticed in a previous Post that someone mentioned the Metronome, or 'home made' version of which, added transparency? Not sure as I don't know what the Metronome does, some sort of re-clocker? Also not sure if it would be of much use in my USB-->I2S-->DAC (or indeed if it needs an extra Transformer / Power Supply.)
Russ, could you advise please, sorry being a bit dense, early Sunday Morning here... and if you feel it would be worthwhile in my setup I will purchase the necessary bits and test them out and report back here. You can tell I'm enjoying this... I hope...
Russ, could you advise please, sorry being a bit dense, early Sunday Morning here... and if you feel it would be worthwhile in my setup I will purchase the necessary bits and test them out and report back here. You can tell I'm enjoying this... I hope...
rjbaldwin said:
Let me guess: you enjoy a touch of exaggeration with your coffee on a Sunday morning
rjbaldwin said:
Recently I went through the experience of adding an ASRC to my USB AD1852 . Difficult to say whether it adds to transparency but it certainly changes the sound in a dramatic way. I seem to like it but apparently there are a lot of detractors.
One thing it does not do is make your digital rig sound closer to a good turntable.
Hi rjbaldwin,
I'm tasting my Sunday morning coffee here so I will participate
I don't think it is necessarily an exaggeration...
Sunday morning has perhaps the best mains AC you can get
PC as source CAN be HiEnd, IMHO. Sorry I didn't get what OS do you play with.
Linux and MAC being best in that regard.
Did you know Soundcheck's thread about the multiplicity of improvements given by Linux?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93315&highlight=
ASRC is good for SPDIF; I have a Monarchy Audio DIP upsampler feeding an M-audio superDAC and the benefits, again IMHO, are evident. With PC you can use software to change sample rate, I think, when reading Linux audio's thread and then the USB module reclocks it (?). Am I wrong? I'm running -ecdesigns- USB/DI2S module which reclocks BCK with a low jitter clock-shiftregister reclocker (NOS DAC) and this move brings lots of improvement in clarity, detail and fluidity. I can imagine it could be worthy also for OS DACs...
Apart that, no PS is so good that it could not become better...
And no output buffer is so good that it could not become better either I still can't play with discrete outputs but my experience has been that OS DACs tend to sound detailed but lacking bass and depth (probably a by-product of the former), a little sterile, and match well with warm sounding opamps like OPA627, which has better bass/midbass than LM4562 (and company) but lacks its transparency...
Enough of this audiophile relapse...
Good luck and enjoy!
M
PS: I have all the necessary now to make my "beta opus" work or see what went wrong. It is a thorn in the shoe for my self-esteem...
I'm tasting my Sunday morning coffee here so I will participate
I don't think it is necessarily an exaggeration...
Sunday morning has perhaps the best mains AC you can get
PC as source CAN be HiEnd, IMHO. Sorry I didn't get what OS do you play with.
Linux and MAC being best in that regard.
Did you know Soundcheck's thread about the multiplicity of improvements given by Linux?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93315&highlight=
ASRC is good for SPDIF; I have a Monarchy Audio DIP upsampler feeding an M-audio superDAC and the benefits, again IMHO, are evident. With PC you can use software to change sample rate, I think, when reading Linux audio's thread and then the USB module reclocks it (?). Am I wrong? I'm running -ecdesigns- USB/DI2S module which reclocks BCK with a low jitter clock-shiftregister reclocker (NOS DAC) and this move brings lots of improvement in clarity, detail and fluidity. I can imagine it could be worthy also for OS DACs...
Apart that, no PS is so good that it could not become better...
And no output buffer is so good that it could not become better either
I still can't play with discrete outputs but my experience has been that OS DACs tend to sound detailed but lacking bass and depth (probably a by-product of the former), a little sterile, and match well with warm sounding opamps like OPA627, which has better bass/midbass than LM4562 (and company) but lacks its transparency...Enough of this audiophile relapse...
Good luck and enjoy!
M
PS: I have all the necessary now to make my "beta opus" work or see what went wrong. It is a thorn in the shoe for my self-esteem...
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