poptart said:
I like to have system that produces moving music every time I listen.
You would be surprised how easily people can get fooled with the right recording and the right system. I have not tried something like that yet, but would be interested in doing so with some of the larger speakers. At close distance, the piano produces some sounds that are "felt" as well as "heard" You really need speakers to move enough air to do that. For smaller speakers, I just settle for what can be heard.phase_accurate said:
Totally agree. most piano performances can get clipped at some of the transient peaks. I don't think recording engineers are going to ask the performer to replay the whole thing just because of this. I once built a test "peak unlimiter" circuit, and the dynamics were such that the piano became more convincing. When I get the time, I will introduce that into my system some day if it does not effect other qualities.
audiotux said:
Did a search on "piano" through that page, the only two places that talked about it was a performer and two different keys the most left and the most right one, and some description of how the speaker produces the sound. Thanks for the link.
Re piano reproduction, and backtracking slightly, Carolina Audio (www.carolinaaudio.com) mentions using their version of the Jordan VTL as a monitoring speaker during their local piano competition.
Colin
Colin
I suspect that piano reproduction - like the piccolo - is good at discovering the nasty sharp spikes at several KHz in loudspeaker response. I have just put a couple of piano discs on to reassure myself that the Jordans do not suffer this problem - they don't.
This thread started with a request for loudspeaker designs for orchestral music. By good fortune and not a little planning, I was at the Royal Albert Hall a couple of evenings ago, one of the works on the program was Elgar's Enigma Variations. I use variation 14 as my test track for changes to the audio system so I have a depressingly accurate comparison for it. It seems unlikely that the first very low organ pedal note will ever come from loudspeakers at that volume in the average listening room; however the evening did remind me that the orchestra produces a lot of power in the range 500 Hz downwards, so I shall renew my efforts to implement line-level baffle step correction.
Andy
This thread started with a request for loudspeaker designs for orchestral music. By good fortune and not a little planning, I was at the Royal Albert Hall a couple of evenings ago, one of the works on the program was Elgar's Enigma Variations. I use variation 14 as my test track for changes to the audio system so I have a depressingly accurate comparison for it. It seems unlikely that the first very low organ pedal note will ever come from loudspeakers at that volume in the average listening room; however the evening did remind me that the orchestra produces a lot of power in the range 500 Hz downwards, so I shall renew my efforts to implement line-level baffle step correction.
Andy
RAndyB said:
Some people have used this software for baffle edge correction estimation. I think you will find it usefull.
http://www.tolvan.com/edge/
I have a two way design that uses the Jordan JX53 and JX125. The low frequency of the organs will astonish you. I use and organ disk to play on a friends system, a brand name I can't remember, and we quickly found out how faulty some of his drivers were.
Charles,
yes I have been to a BBC Promenade Concert; do I look smug from where you are sitting?
I shall admit to not promenading, I didn't enjoy standing when I was a young man, and now it is even more uncomfortable, anyway my daughter thinks she should sit when being treated by Dad! Perhaps this is too far off topic for Full Range forum, but - I think whoever was playing the Albert Hall Organ (not specifically listed in the program) could not resist pulling out a few more stops than was absolutely necessary; in the coda the organ did not just drown out the strings as expected, it even overwhelmed the brass; must try for an organ recital there sometime, should be rather more exiting even than Huddersfield Town Hall.
I have heard the 50% figure mentioned before, and am inclined to agree. Even with a 6db lift from 1KHz to 50Hz, the balance is a bit thin, although there may be other reasons for this, see below.
Don,
the Jordans do reproduce the sound of an orchestra well enough for my comfort. Referring back to the organ entry in Elgar Enigma 14, with BSC the pedal note does shake the air, the floor, the chair. That sort of lower bass is somewhat too strong in comparison with the double basses, bassoons, lower brass. Even so, the Jordans in these cabinets are, for me, at the price level, an adequate simulation of the concert hall in my 15ft by 12 ft by 9 ft room.
Please do not be persuaded that MDF is a good material for speaker cabinets, especially the large ones needed to make full-range drivers work well. The cabinets are transparent/resonant at an irritating narrow frequency band which I am sure is colouring the treble. Listening to Tallis's Spem in alium points this up rather too well.
Your wife approves of triangles? This design would be acceptable. I am hoping to hear JX92S in some other cabinets soon. After that I shall be able to post a comprehensive report of my project. Mail me direct for the unadorned details if you wish.
Andy
yes I have been to a BBC Promenade Concert; do I look smug from where you are sitting?
I shall admit to not promenading, I didn't enjoy standing when I was a young man, and now it is even more uncomfortable, anyway my daughter thinks she should sit when being treated by Dad! Perhaps this is too far off topic for Full Range forum, but - I think whoever was playing the Albert Hall Organ (not specifically listed in the program) could not resist pulling out a few more stops than was absolutely necessary; in the coda the organ did not just drown out the strings as expected, it even overwhelmed the brass; must try for an organ recital there sometime, should be rather more exiting even than Huddersfield Town Hall.
I have heard the 50% figure mentioned before, and am inclined to agree. Even with a 6db lift from 1KHz to 50Hz, the balance is a bit thin, although there may be other reasons for this, see below.
Don,
the Jordans do reproduce the sound of an orchestra well enough for my comfort. Referring back to the organ entry in Elgar Enigma 14, with BSC the pedal note does shake the air, the floor, the chair. That sort of lower bass is somewhat too strong in comparison with the double basses, bassoons, lower brass. Even so, the Jordans in these cabinets are, for me, at the price level, an adequate simulation of the concert hall in my 15ft by 12 ft by 9 ft room.
Please do not be persuaded that MDF is a good material for speaker cabinets, especially the large ones needed to make full-range drivers work well. The cabinets are transparent/resonant at an irritating narrow frequency band which I am sure is colouring the treble. Listening to Tallis's Spem in alium points this up rather too well.
Your wife approves of triangles? This design would be acceptable. I am hoping to hear JX92S in some other cabinets soon. After that I shall be able to post a comprehensive report of my project. Mail me direct for the unadorned details if you wish.
Andy
I haven't been to a live concert for a long time. 
Envy you guys. The hall here are really just not up to par. The last time was either in Czech or Vienna.
I just put together a table top speaker trying out some different drivers that are compatible by analysis. I must say the JX53 really stands out in this category of aroun 3". Other drivers are not putting nearly as good sound field and resolution. Some sound good with pure vocals and background music. The JX53 gives you a sense that a stage exists. All use BSC, components are of same quality (commonly available). I'm going to be trying out different component quality to see what differences I hear.
It's really a pity that the JX125 and JX150 are currently not produced. Certainly hope they come back even better.
Envy you guys. The hall here are really just not up to par. The last time was either in Czech or Vienna.I just put together a table top speaker trying out some different drivers that are compatible by analysis. I must say the JX53 really stands out in this category of aroun 3". Other drivers are not putting nearly as good sound field and resolution. Some sound good with pure vocals and background music. The JX53 gives you a sense that a stage exists. All use BSC, components are of same quality (commonly available). I'm going to be trying out different component quality to see what differences I hear.
It's really a pity that the JX125 and JX150 are currently not produced. Certainly hope they come back even better.
RAndyB said:
Sobering and encouraging—and helpful, needless to say.
Rrright. I have read no less than four statements in the last three days dissuading me.
Triangles, polygons, prisms, polyhedra...matter of fact we're both inordinately fond of them!
It was good to hear from you; I was about to call to you out there in your garage to ask how it was going. I look forward to hearing more from you and appreciate the invitation. You'll hear from me presently.
Thank you,
Don
RAndyB said:
You don't look smug to me, either; as a born-but-ex-denizen of the California coast who is now perched on a knoll surrounded by 200 acres of woodland which is in turn surrounded by uncountable square miles of corn and bean fields (and a smidgeon more woodland), I would say that both of you look very, very far away.
soongsc said:I haven't been to a live concert for a long time.
Royal Albert Hall does not have a good reputation for acoustics, but it is:
big;
blessed with a wonderful pipe organ, just refurbished;
close to the hearts of many music lovers.
Probably the best acoustic I have heard in the recent past is Symphony Hall in Birmingham, it even has a double skin and huge movable screens to adjust the reverberation time.
soongsc said:
(Un)fortunately the speakers in the other room are beginning to break up, so I shall need to replace them, too. This second room, although a similar size, has no room for large cabinets. Sounds like a project just suited to JX53 satellites with a sub, would you not agree? The lady of the house does not yet know of this tentative plan, so I need support here, guys.
Regards,
Andy
RAndyB said:
I think I'll be able to show some pictures when we are ready. Currently different people get different impressions when they look at it. The box manufacturer says it's like a snail, my daughter says it's like a gold fish if you put it one way and a ghost when you put it another, I think it looks like a drop of water or a sea shell. If we can get it down to 80Hz, it will be good for large portions of music. I think we are going to call it "The Lullaby" or "The Serenade", maybe both will be used or whatever, depending on what is finally decided.
Line arrayed JX53 mounted in-wall might also be good. You will get very good dynamics with those.
Colin said:
Ahoy Colin! Are we going to get to see those pics?
I checked to see whether Bruce's 7.75-7.75-11 cross section might be a right triangle, and essentially it is (7.75 X 1.4142 = 10.96). Since such a cabinet could be built with only two angle cuts that would be of a standard 22.5 degrees, maybe ease of construction was another factor in the choice—but toe-in would also be different in the important one-side-to-the-wall positioning, which brings up something I've been wanting to bring up:
Equilateral cabinets, placed with one edge at the wall and parallel to it, will aim the drivers into the room at a 30 degree angle from the wall. Therefore if the two speakers are about 8 1/2 feet apart, their axes will cross at only about 2 1/2 feet out into the room. Sounds pretty tight for a lot of applications. Such angles should be just right in the application that you've described, though.
Right-triangle cabinets at 8 1/2 feet apart, since they will aim the drivers at 45 degrees, will place the axis crossing at about 3 feet into the room, maybe a little better in more typical arrangements.
BTW the toe-in suggested for the JX53 array system at the Jordan site is 60 degrees, which places the axis-crossing at a distance out from the wall .866 times the distance between the speakers: Speakers 10 feet apart, axis-crossing 8 1/2 feet out. (The equilateral cabinets would achieve that if they were in a corner with one side parallel to the side walls! Is that ridiculous or is it a possibility? Anybody have a comment?)
Thanks Colin and everybody for your help and you helpfulness,
Don
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