el`Ol said:
I somehow recall that mica caps are used at frequencies higher than audio range, more in radios, that was a long time ago when I just started to understand what different capacitors do. So I guess it depends upon what the cap is used for in the design, what value, and what kind of cap was originally used. But this discussion would be off topic.
Visaton NoBox
I've been hearing a lot of good things about the Visaton B200 driver. Here is a relatively simple and promising design:
http://www.visaton.de/english/artikel/art_829_6_20.html
Russell
I've been hearing a lot of good things about the Visaton B200 driver. Here is a relatively simple and promising design:
http://www.visaton.de/english/artikel/art_829_6_20.html
Russell
Hi soongsc ,
the most amps will work well , forget the risetime !
but Pass Amps + Mangers are a Dreamteam . Risetime alone for itself
has nothing to do with good sound , also the bandwith alone for itself .
You can hear other capacitors or silver micas with slow or fast amps
or with other speakers , not alone with the Mangers .
Enjoy the music !
Jürgen
the most amps will work well , forget the risetime !
but Pass Amps + Mangers are a Dreamteam . Risetime alone for itself
has nothing to do with good sound , also the bandwith alone for itself .
You can hear other capacitors or silver micas with slow or fast amps
or with other speakers , not alone with the Mangers .
Enjoy the music !
Jürgen
to el Ol ,
wegen der Anstiegszeit und der Bandbreite gibt es eine interresante
Erklärung von Andreas Hoffmann auf www.octave.de unter dem
tread octave und manger passt das ? , bezieht sich aber auf alle
Verstärker oder Lautsprecher nicht nur manger allein !
Damit wird ersichtlich dass das mit der Schnelligkeit sehr ungenau
definiert war .
Grüße aus Baden
Jürgen
wegen der Anstiegszeit und der Bandbreite gibt es eine interresante
Erklärung von Andreas Hoffmann auf www.octave.de unter dem
tread octave und manger passt das ? , bezieht sich aber auf alle
Verstärker oder Lautsprecher nicht nur manger allein !
Damit wird ersichtlich dass das mit der Schnelligkeit sehr ungenau
definiert war .
Grüße aus Baden
Jürgen
audiotux said:
Hi J¨¹rgen
I was really wondering because after reading so many good reviews and looking at the concept, I was excited. But after listening to the Mangers, it did not seem to stand out that much. So the discussion started just to see whether there were anything that could have inhibited their performance.
Hi soongsc ,
like my new name ( no problem only joking )
i stated in direct !! comparison other speakers are bright and boomy or
very boomy ! Have you seen any Jordans , Fostexs , Lowthers ?
at the Hifi Show ? That has nothing to do with the Quality of that
speakers or the Mangers .
Enjoy your music !
Greetings from Germany
Jürgen
like my new name ( no problem only joking )
i stated in direct !! comparison other speakers are bright and boomy or
very boomy ! Have you seen any Jordans , Fostexs , Lowthers ?
at the Hifi Show ? That has nothing to do with the Quality of that
speakers or the Mangers .
Enjoy your music !
Greetings from Germany
Jürgen
audiotux said:
I saw many speakers that use Fostex, none that are full range or sound very good, no Lowthers, no Jordans. But these manufacturers only produce drivers and no speakers as I recall. Manger actually produces speakers and drivers. Just maybe the importer is not promoting it hard enough. If the drivers were not so expensive, I would have gotton a pair to play around with.
There are actually two technologies that I'd like to experience first hand, one is the Manger, the other is NXT. I use mostly Jordans because ever since I started to work on speakers I understood that the design concept was sound engineering pratices, and those provided the best sound at the time. I still try different drivers if the design information looks promising, but most still lack the detail resolution.
I compare speakers starting with feelings first. Can I feel what the performer is expressing? or do I just hear sound. Do I feel like I'm at the location of the performance? or do I feel the speakers are trying to bring the performer into my room. If I only have a short time to listen, then I pick piano performances that I previously often find well recorded and see if it sounds like a real piano. The reason I pick piano is that most systems do not seem to show realistic piano sound. It's amazing how different same piano performances can sound on different systems.
I once talked with an audio store manager, and he indicated music students are the most difficult people to sell audio equipment to, because no matter what they listen to, it always sounds like boxed music.
Hope to build up some test capability that will identify why speakers or systems do not sound realistic enough. Currently the only thing I can think of is first testing FR at different levels and see what happens. The traditional 1W is too large for small signal, and too small for large signal.
This is just a gut feeling, but might it be because piano is a very large instrument? Why would a little speaker give the same impression of size and complicated sound radiation into a room as a real piano? Perhaps the speaker would need to be the same size as the piano for us to be able to close our eyes and really sense it's in front of us. If you close your eyes and walk around you can sense a large obstacle before you walk into it by the sound, but smaller objects you might bump into.
Just an idea
Perhaps not so much the physical size of a piano, but the fact that it is a percussion instrument, therefore transients might be more difficult to recreate.poptart said:This is just a gut feeling, but might it be because piano is a very large instrument? Why would a little speaker give the same impression of size and complicated sound radiation into a room as a real piano? Perhaps the speaker would need to be the same size as the piano for us to be able to close our eyes and really sense it's in front of us. If you close your eyes and walk around you can sense a large obstacle before you walk into it by the sound, but smaller objects you might bump into.
Just an idea
Dumbass said:
I think that is it.
In addition, the time/phase relationship between the transient and the following resonance characteristics make up the tone of the piano. So if the speaker is not performing right, the transient and resonance do not sound like they are from the same instrument.
poptart said:
This is just a gut feeling, but might it be because piano is a very large instrument? Why would a little speaker give the same impression of size and complicated sound radiation into a room as a real piano? Perhaps the speaker would need to be the same size as the piano for us to be able to close our eyes and really sense it's in front of us. If you close your eyes and walk around you can sense a large obstacle before you walk into it by the sound, but smaller objects you might bump into.
Just an idea
Yes, dynamics of the piano is difficult to reproduce, and is also difficult to record. But if you listen to a live performance in a concert hall, the piano does not sound big, but it is clearly different than what is heard on most speakers.
It really takes some time to listen to such live performances and appreciate the skill of the performer to be able to feel the difference.
If you're a long way away from a piano in a hall the piano is like a small source, so I can see how size wouldn't have anything to do with it. I was thinking of the hard to please piano student in an audio store mentioned earlier. If you're sitting at a piano it's very large and different sounds are coming from the top and bottom, wrapping around the piano reflecting/diffracting etc. I don't think a little speaker in your face is ever going to sound like that no matter how good the transient response is.
audiotux said:
This article explains that speed of an amplifier is the capability to deliver current at high frequencies. "Fast" transistor amps were easy to blow up, so most of the transistor amps developed today are even "slower" than valve amps. My friend uses Black Devil amps from Experience Electronics, a very risky design from the eighties that has nothing but melting fuses to prevent overpower and a far overdimensioned power supply.
poptart said:
Of course for piano students, if they are just listening from a player's point of view, then they will not hear the right thing because the recording is not done from that point of view. But a speaker should be able to reproduce what the recording engineer is trying to reveal, and also what the performer is trying to let the audience hear. Some of the famous pianists have a few pianos that they choose from before a performance based on the acoustics of the hall. So can it sound the same. From a pure dynamic range point of view, yes! From a linearity point of view, difficult. How much effort do manufactures want to put into acomplishing this? Depends on customer demand. Are there designers out there trying to acomplish this? Yes! I take my hat off to those whom are not afraid to actknowledge the current limitations, and I respect those that really try to improve the performance.
I certainly don't mean to insult anyone who is working on something like that, I should have thought about that before I said it. It's was just a feeling, and I'm just a regular guy with an interest in audio, not a speaker designer. I'm sure experiments must take place with blind folded piano players led to one of two piano benches, one in front of a real piano and one in front of a speaker. I'd still be very surprised if any were fooled by the speaker, but I'd be very interested to read about the experiment and what the "clues" were that let our brains determine what we're listening to.
I know this is off the topic of the thread, sorry.
Hi all ,
nice piano thing , have a link to pianos , amplifiers ,speakers , unsw .
see Jeff Days review of the Evans Audio Disign on www.six moon .com
click on audioreviews , sroll down to audioreviews and you find the review
of the Tom Evans Linear A , go to : the amplifier/speaker interface there it is !
Greetings from Germany
Jürgen
nice piano thing , have a link to pianos , amplifiers ,speakers , unsw .
see Jeff Days review of the Evans Audio Disign on www.six moon .com
click on audioreviews , sroll down to audioreviews and you find the review
of the Tom Evans Linear A , go to : the amplifier/speaker interface there it is !
Greetings from Germany
Jürgen
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