J-P
As no answer from you about the time needed to break in the SAL-RPM caps, I tried more than 5 hours !
Well after 2 days break in the SAL-RPM (48H), I still prefer the PANASONIC 10 uF SEP ! ... on both my ref and modded Subbu PCBs !
Could the SB Duet be less jittered than your SB Touch due to the last having an internal smps PS feeding its digital output chip ? ...which an external PS can not change if this internal smps is keeped as Art from Slimdevices testimonied (saying this little internal smps is a big jitter generator despite the digital output having its own Crystal !)
Well the Subbu (or the W8804) is very sensitive about the streamer. It is very interresting to see how more resolution and tempo can be added swapping the caps of the Wolfson by KZ Muse as I writted already !
My bet is your good layout worth an I2S version as the W8804 seems to be a limiting factor... or is it our SqueezeBox which are too much jiterred! 50 pico second of the Duet is not low enough as modding it change many things for the best !
So time to have a better spidf streamer or a I2S version of the Subbu instead a simple V4 with a better BOM like mine (according to me and on my system !) : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-48.html#post3981674 .
I surmise changing with just brand new LDOs and add an spidf pulse transformer would not suffice (even with a better BOM) for a V4 !
regards
Eldam
As no answer from you about the time needed to break in the SAL-RPM caps, I tried more than 5 hours !
Well after 2 days break in the SAL-RPM (48H), I still prefer the PANASONIC 10 uF SEP ! ... on both my ref and modded Subbu PCBs !
Could the SB Duet be less jittered than your SB Touch due to the last having an internal smps PS feeding its digital output chip ? ...which an external PS can not change if this internal smps is keeped as Art from Slimdevices testimonied (saying this little internal smps is a big jitter generator despite the digital output having its own Crystal !)
Well the Subbu (or the W8804) is very sensitive about the streamer. It is very interresting to see how more resolution and tempo can be added swapping the caps of the Wolfson by KZ Muse as I writted already !
My bet is your good layout worth an I2S version as the W8804 seems to be a limiting factor... or is it our SqueezeBox which are too much jiterred! 50 pico second of the Duet is not low enough as modding it change many things for the best !
So time to have a better spidf streamer or a I2S version of the Subbu instead a simple V4 with a better BOM like mine (according to me and on my system !) : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-48.html#post3981674 .
I surmise changing with just brand new LDOs and add an spidf pulse transformer would not suffice (even with a better BOM) for a V4 !
regards
Eldam
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So you used 2,2 µF SAL RPM and compared to 10 µF Pana ? Please understand we used 10 µF SAL RPM 122 (Korben has those too). Secondly you can only compare same value caps.
Two days breaking in should be enough. I suppose they did improve but you are not clear on that and as they're 2,2 µF you haven't done a right comparison.
I don't know about the SB blah blah but the Touch is a good device.I don't know the Duet at all. IMO the Touch is best value for money. Most others are either very expensive or they're just more expensive and less good and I don't want the traditional pc with screen in my living room as I think that is poor taste. So I have to do with the Touch. The SBT PSU is a clear improvement in performance.
Two days breaking in should be enough. I suppose they did improve but you are not clear on that and as they're 2,2 µF you haven't done a right comparison.
I don't know about the SB blah blah but the Touch is a good device.I don't know the Duet at all. IMO the Touch is best value for money. Most others are either very expensive or they're just more expensive and less good and I don't want the traditional pc with screen in my living room as I think that is poor taste. So I have to do with the Touch. The SBT PSU is a clear improvement in performance.
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I assume JP to be right for all here, I mostly agree about the living room as a french, will say in fact than hifi have no place in it like TV either ! So we like music, trade-off, equipment is hidden !
Well about the ESR, inductance (pitch legs) : I never found any concistency with that with test & error method ! What I found on many cases (not only about Subbu) is than often, the construction makes all the caps to have a different result... with a concistency in a same range (don't speak about capacitance or voltage but reference serie : Pabasonic FR, Nichicon Blah, etc !)
Of course ESR, inductance is important, but not so far : often better result with higher ESR, sometimes not.
I spend time more to adapt to my personal tastes and hifi to try to find an acceptable tonal balance which is my same goal : sometimes it's too tight, sometimes too dull, et, etc !
In the SAL RPM I found they have a concistency in sound rsesult when used on different pcbs at different position around PS and dac chips. I tried two different value 3.3 uF huge axial (huge inductance) one like the little radiall sal-rpm / they gave similar result. Ok it's not 10 uF but it talks to me. Why ?
Around the wolfson I tried many ref in many values with many types (20 to 30 different caps...) from few uf like 1 uF MKT or 2.2 uF : there is a concistency with higher capacitance value (few tonal difference and not where I try to improve the sound !) like 10 uF. With 20 uF instead (so far above 10 uF) I found the major difference is a projection of sound (soundstage) and magnyfing glass effect !
Never the ESR or inductance was a good indicator most of the time for tweaking this particular DAC ! Not the case for the W8804... An another story e.g. for C22 : Nichicon PLE 470/6.3V (5 mOhms ESR), discontinued OSCON SP 820/4V (less than 10 mO iirc !) : best result, so a certain concistency while a Panasonic SEPC will be far worst with its low ESR than the the SEP serie with its far more ESR !
I care a lot about tonal balance (subjective : the Hifi, each has a different) but also time delay with notes... I'm not involved with concept like clearness, etc, while sometimes it can match the others good qualities !
Not universal than the findings I maid, but certainly worth a try ! Without losing the idea of the difference between streamers (Wolfson in hardware is still sensible to each modification before it !) and of course Hifi/room !
But defintly the difference between 10 uf and 2.2 uf around the W8804 is not crucial here ! Believe me, try both the Panasonic SEP 10uF/25V like the Nichicon KZ Muse 20uf/100 V to understand what I speak about! And yes here I talk about two different capacitance values once more (but here not elswhere on the pcb : )!
If someone want to send me (I will re sent it) two 10 uF SAL, I will testimonie in a total honesty !
Some others than me have prefered Panasonic SEP 10 uF (I find very neutral and best trade offs) in C22 and around W8804 !
Of course the Sal can certainly give better result with different system !
But try, theory ok ! But empirical verification : important !
Well about the ESR, inductance (pitch legs) : I never found any concistency with that with test & error method ! What I found on many cases (not only about Subbu) is than often, the construction makes all the caps to have a different result... with a concistency in a same range (don't speak about capacitance or voltage but reference serie : Pabasonic FR, Nichicon Blah, etc !)
Of course ESR, inductance is important, but not so far : often better result with higher ESR, sometimes not.
I spend time more to adapt to my personal tastes and hifi to try to find an acceptable tonal balance which is my same goal : sometimes it's too tight, sometimes too dull, et, etc !
In the SAL RPM I found they have a concistency in sound rsesult when used on different pcbs at different position around PS and dac chips. I tried two different value 3.3 uF huge axial (huge inductance) one like the little radiall sal-rpm / they gave similar result. Ok it's not 10 uF but it talks to me. Why ?
Around the wolfson I tried many ref in many values with many types (20 to 30 different caps...) from few uf like 1 uF MKT or 2.2 uF : there is a concistency with higher capacitance value (few tonal difference and not where I try to improve the sound !) like 10 uF. With 20 uF instead (so far above 10 uF) I found the major difference is a projection of sound (soundstage) and magnyfing glass effect !
Never the ESR or inductance was a good indicator most of the time for tweaking this particular DAC ! Not the case for the W8804... An another story e.g. for C22 : Nichicon PLE 470/6.3V (5 mOhms ESR), discontinued OSCON SP 820/4V (less than 10 mO iirc !) : best result, so a certain concistency while a Panasonic SEPC will be far worst with its low ESR than the the SEP serie with its far more ESR !
I care a lot about tonal balance (subjective : the Hifi, each has a different) but also time delay with notes... I'm not involved with concept like clearness, etc, while sometimes it can match the others good qualities !
Not universal than the findings I maid, but certainly worth a try ! Without losing the idea of the difference between streamers (Wolfson in hardware is still sensible to each modification before it !) and of course Hifi/room !
But defintly the difference between 10 uf and 2.2 uf around the W8804 is not crucial here ! Believe me, try both the Panasonic SEP 10uF/25V like the Nichicon KZ Muse 20uf/100 V to understand what I speak about! And yes here I talk about two different capacitance values once more (but here not elswhere on the pcb : )!
If someone want to send me (I will re sent it) two 10 uF SAL, I will testimonie in a total honesty !
Some others than me have prefered Panasonic SEP 10 uF (I find very neutral and best trade offs) in C22 and around W8804 !
Of course the Sal can certainly give better result with different system !
But try, theory ok ! But empirical verification : important !
For sure peufeu, I'm finishing some units this week
I've got some ideas for this unit, I don't talk about tweaking
Regards
Phil
Hummm, what about tweaks Phil...? Not good enough ! After all you use my 3 caps Panasonic SEP choices in your last assembly GB ? ! Here it seems good enough !
Peufeu,
Up to you Peufeu to test, i gave the link with my BOM, all the others parts are the official BOM ! Ask to J-P a set of pcb (PS+DAC) if you haven’t already
If you have the pcbs already, you can see this is a very well documented project: shematics, screens, BOM with some alternative choices were given. In my humble opinion this the example to follow… great work ! Ah Ok this the V3… even better, it was a followed project. I learned a lot with it. It was very pleasant at my simple unskilled level ! few parts, so easier to work on it. Also the shared work of some experienced diyers with a real technical background! Some share a lot like Gary. We agree on some changes not for some others, etc… while trying to understand where the difference were (hifi, streamer, etc !)
I have no technical background, just involved by the music ! Here mostly for Jazz and acoustic, classical music… For Pop & Rock, I really don’t care ! But in my case, the improvement is real with the limitation of my system of course.
I would like to know how those changes work, where I ear pleasant distorsion, a better harmonic presentation, all those things I can’t measure ! E.G. why some experienced people use bad inductance big smt with PPS/Acrylic instead COG 0603 case or smaller, etc !
Maybe it’s just sound better just on my system ! I would be happy to learn, to see where I’m wrong… I believe the audio measurement is a science… matching the results and the protocol to have a concistency seems to be very hard. If it was not, all the RF and Electrical Engineers could launch goods dacs, good amps, etc… It’s not the case!
Knowing of course that all the systems involved in a hifi and in the last one, the listining room needs compensation between them !
Something which could be fun is to swap so X7R for small decoupling by bigger PPS smt cases form ! The actual DAC pcb is too litle for that !
Peufeu,
Up to you Peufeu to test, i gave the link with my BOM, all the others parts are the official BOM ! Ask to J-P a set of pcb (PS+DAC) if you haven’t already
If you have the pcbs already, you can see this is a very well documented project: shematics, screens, BOM with some alternative choices were given. In my humble opinion this the example to follow… great work ! Ah Ok this the V3… even better, it was a followed project. I learned a lot with it. It was very pleasant at my simple unskilled level ! few parts, so easier to work on it. Also the shared work of some experienced diyers with a real technical background! Some share a lot like Gary. We agree on some changes not for some others, etc… while trying to understand where the difference were (hifi, streamer, etc !)
I have no technical background, just involved by the music ! Here mostly for Jazz and acoustic, classical music… For Pop & Rock, I really don’t care ! But in my case, the improvement is real with the limitation of my system of course.
I would like to know how those changes work, where I ear pleasant distorsion, a better harmonic presentation, all those things I can’t measure ! E.G. why some experienced people use bad inductance big smt with PPS/Acrylic instead COG 0603 case or smaller, etc !
Maybe it’s just sound better just on my system ! I would be happy to learn, to see where I’m wrong… I believe the audio measurement is a science… matching the results and the protocol to have a concistency seems to be very hard. If it was not, all the RF and Electrical Engineers could launch goods dacs, good amps, etc… It’s not the case!
Knowing of course that all the systems involved in a hifi and in the last one, the listining room needs compensation between them !
Something which could be fun is to swap so X7R for small decoupling by bigger PPS smt cases form ! The actual DAC pcb is too litle for that !
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If an upgrade is wished for the PSU then our new PSU can be used with quite good results. It was originally meant for use with the Squeezebox Touch but since it is a 5V power supply it can also be used with the V3 DAC (and every other device that needs 5V 3A max.). Voltage can be changed with changes to some components but I only tested it with 5V output voltage.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/264185-squeezebox-touch-psu.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/264185-squeezebox-touch-psu.html
Today i assembled one Subbu dac for my friend. I used his BOM last version material. I also assembled one my version... Ultima Subbu Dac. (work is still in progress)
First... SEP 10uf oscillated abnormaly at position C13 that i must turn sensitivity for 2 position higher to see it clearly (also 10Uf ceramic cap oscillated so esr is too low)... at position C8 is ok but line is still dancing a little. I change it to old Oscon not to low esr 47uf type to try polymer on that position and MUSE KZ instead Fine Gold that you see. I think at the end wil be Sal-rpm.
Here are some scope pictures comparisson between my Ultima Subbu and V3 last BOM .
Picture 1 famous C17 clock supply - ultima vs BOM
Picture 2 AVCC pin es9023 - ultima vs BOM
Picture 3 WM8804 pin 7 PVDD - ultima vs BOM
First... SEP 10uf oscillated abnormaly at position C13 that i must turn sensitivity for 2 position higher to see it clearly (also 10Uf ceramic cap oscillated so esr is too low)... at position C8 is ok but line is still dancing a little. I change it to old Oscon not to low esr 47uf type to try polymer on that position and MUSE KZ instead Fine Gold that you see. I think at the end wil be Sal-rpm.
Here are some scope pictures comparisson between my Ultima Subbu and V3 last BOM .
Picture 1 famous C17 clock supply - ultima vs BOM
Picture 2 AVCC pin es9023 - ultima vs BOM
Picture 3 WM8804 pin 7 PVDD - ultima vs BOM
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C8/C13 : I like very much the KZ Muse 20 uF but objectivly speaking : KZ Muse 10/100 V has a better tonal balance and no harchness anymore (though loosing little of its fantastic clearness in the bass the 20 uF has while staying dynamic and lively on my system).
C8/C13 have no problems at home... but : C2 is the same than C3 : a UCC PSA serie (the same as the other one on your pcb : negativ mark in blue !)
I will swap the C22 on the two pcbs by a SEP > 470/ uF (did you putt a SEPC ?) or an old SP Oscon : >520uf /4V ... Of course also the Nichicon PSE serie 470 uf/6.3 V. I don't like at all the red Nichicon you use in any place... any !
C21 : stay with the 10 uF SEP like on your photograph.
Second board is the non moved reference to compare : i have still to pick the 1 uF BG at C32 as I have only one !
On my photograph : the UCC are the PSA serie low profile ! You can see the two KZ Muse 10 uF ! In your shoes i will test the two values of KZ 10 uf like te he 20 uf to understand what can do this dac chip in the bass without buffer... for the hobby ! (you listen to it between two scope screens or just check with scope ?)
important : C32 :the MKS2 2.5 mm pitch (1 uF) or better (for me) : Black Gate 1 uF !
You are not too far much from my personal BOM, could you give it a chance ? c2/c3/c18 must be the UCC 100 uF of the first BOM of JP/Subbu with the official BOM (further GB parts have littles changes in relation to the official genuine BOM)
photograph of the PS used ? Important !
C8/C13 have no problems at home... but : C2 is the same than C3 : a UCC PSA serie (the same as the other one on your pcb : negativ mark in blue !)
I will swap the C22 on the two pcbs by a SEP > 470/ uF (did you putt a SEPC ?) or an old SP Oscon : >520uf /4V ... Of course also the Nichicon PSE serie 470 uf/6.3 V. I don't like at all the red Nichicon you use in any place... any !
C21 : stay with the 10 uF SEP like on your photograph.
Second board is the non moved reference to compare : i have still to pick the 1 uF BG at C32 as I have only one !
On my photograph : the UCC are the PSA serie low profile ! You can see the two KZ Muse 10 uF ! In your shoes i will test the two values of KZ 10 uf like te he 20 uf to understand what can do this dac chip in the bass without buffer... for the hobby ! (you listen to it between two scope screens or just check with scope ?)
important : C32 :the MKS2 2.5 mm pitch (1 uF) or better (for me) : Black Gate 1 uF !
You are not too far much from my personal BOM, could you give it a chance ? c2/c3/c18 must be the UCC 100 uF of the first BOM of JP/Subbu with the official BOM (further GB parts have littles changes in relation to the official genuine BOM)
photograph of the PS used ? Important !
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Hi I like this approach a lot but could you post a list of changes with part numbers and type numbers (for instance C21 - 100 µF 25V panasonic FC etc) for both your Ultima version and the BOM version in one document with scope screen shots. I ask this because I see you did not use tantalum caps around the regs as well. Hard to compare but better is better ! You see we put a lot of time in this but it is nice to see someone puts time in improving it and showing scope screens. I simply could not try all available capacitors .... I hope you also listen to the V3
Let me know how SAL-RPM compares.Eldam, you really do need a "pincet"
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I can't work according your approach but I can work like Androa does it. Still V3 can't be used right now in my setup as I went digital amps (DDX). I will do some stuff with V3 again though but first the SBT PSU Group Buy needs to start.
@ Androa: did you use exact the same PSU's on both the DACs ?
@ Androa: did you use exact the same PSU's on both the DACs ?
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ears are a deceiving instruments when you try to do things like playing tennis with it, read a book (not an audio one !) or smell with it !
Ah, pincette = petite pince ! Well maybe this is the name, I don't know !
The first pcb on the left was my first smt soldering in my life... the one of the right picture was my second pcb of my life less a bottle of Bordeaux (still without "pincette") !
DDX, the one of HIfimyDIY ? or a diy one ?
Why not just putt an amp in the same pcb than the V3 : it sounds good ? add it a buffer for speaker (that some call an amp) et voilà ? !
You work in a bio bank and want to go with DDX everywhere ? (joke)
Without kidding (just try two kz Muse 10 uF to compare apple to apple like you like... have you not two sal 10 uF to sell : buying ten is expensive !)
Ah, pincette = petite pince ! Well maybe this is the name, I don't know !
The first pcb on the left was my first smt soldering in my life... the one of the right picture was my second pcb of my life less a bottle of Bordeaux (still without "pincette") !
DDX, the one of HIfimyDIY ? or a diy one ?
Why not just putt an amp in the same pcb than the V3 : it sounds good ? add it a buffer for speaker (that some call an amp) et voilà ? !
You work in a bio bank and want to go with DDX everywhere ? (joke)
Without kidding (just try two kz Muse 10 uF to compare apple to apple like you like... have you not two sal 10 uF to sell : buying ten is expensive !)
J-P
I have listened to V3. Last BOM V3 has similar sound type as dacs that i have made in past. I will not write down all the parts for my version because it is not finished yet.
Parts for second (friends) dac are identical as in BOM last edition GB from Korben except SP in position C13.
Before reg i don*t like 1uf (Ceramic is tinner sounded as PPS) because the high midrange is to pronounced and bass is to quick and not so deep. (10uf +100nf+10nf is my choice) After reg i have tantal 4,7uf...but different colour)
Eldam ... if you have ceramics in clock...you can listen to oscillation ...also with SEP on position C13 if you wish. Leave Muse on that position.
I wrote a lot of time...first mesurement than listening. So you could also do in that way.... because you are dancing in a cirrcle for a long time.
I know have 2 more dacs in comparison that i don*t imagine and dream about sound...
Northstar Essensio, moded by my friend an Audio-gd 17.32. ( on position OS2 and filter1 because all settings have different sound)
PS was the same at both dacs... but to put the doubth about PSU down they are now connected to 5,5V batteries. For medium currents ...to 500mA it is for my ears still one of the best choice.
In next weeks...salas vs AMBs11 vs TPS7A... and on AVCC belleson and TPS7A....maybe on clock i will try LP38798.
I will like to do my work clean... not as in E... pictures. Aesthetic is for me also one think to care about.
I have listened to V3. Last BOM V3 has similar sound type as dacs that i have made in past. I will not write down all the parts for my version because it is not finished yet.
Parts for second (friends) dac are identical as in BOM last edition GB from Korben except SP in position C13.
Before reg i don*t like 1uf (Ceramic is tinner sounded as PPS) because the high midrange is to pronounced and bass is to quick and not so deep. (10uf +100nf+10nf is my choice) After reg i have tantal 4,7uf...but different colour
)Eldam ... if you have ceramics in clock...you can listen to oscillation ...also with SEP on position C13 if you wish. Leave Muse on that position.
I wrote a lot of time...first mesurement than listening. So you could also do in that way.... because you are dancing in a cirrcle for a long time.
I know have 2 more dacs in comparison that i don*t imagine and dream about sound...
Northstar Essensio, moded by my friend an Audio-gd 17.32. ( on position OS2 and filter1 because all settings have different sound)
PS was the same at both dacs... but to put the doubth about PSU down they are now connected to 5,5V batteries. For medium currents ...to 500mA it is for my ears still one of the best choice.
In next weeks...salas vs AMBs11 vs TPS7A... and on AVCC belleson and TPS7A....maybe on clock i will try LP38798.
I will like to do my work clean... not as in E... pictures. Aesthetic is for me also one think to care about.
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Although we think alike let us please stay friendly to those that have a different way of working. No one can beat the enthusiasm of Eldam. Continue the good work and fill the gaps I left. You have a good basis (the layout and design are proven to be OK) and understand your efforts are appreciated. Many will follow recommendations without even doubting so I would like to ask to do it documented just to avoid misinformation.
I must admit that I really would like to make a modified version with SPDIF transformer onboard Let's say that I could make such a version with your changes (right footprints for the cap combinations etc.) also incorporated but only if you document stuff. No hard promise but maybe a nice thought to keep you going 
BTW if you would like to try the new PSU, I have some left that are ready built and can switch owner for a reasonable price. Send me PM if you want one for trying out.
I must admit that I really would like to make a modified version with SPDIF transformer onboard
Let's say that I could make such a version with your changes (right footprints for the cap combinations etc.) also incorporated but only if you document stuff. No hard promise but maybe a nice thought to keep you going BTW if you would like to try the new PSU, I have some left that are ready built and can switch owner for a reasonable price. Send me PM if you want one for trying out.
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