Ah the French! Always needing the last word. One might conclude that the word silence doesn't exist in the French language .Hi Gary,
I modified my Subbu DAC following your guidance in the beginning of the thread, just the things that made more than a subtle difference. it took longer that I expended to burn in, but there was a definite change in the sound. At first vocals seemed farther back in the sound stage, but after burn in that is no longer the case. I am very pleased with this DAC, very deep, 3D, with great detail and clarity. Hard to beat at any price. Thanks for the pointers.
PJN
I modified my Subbu DAC following your guidance in the beginning of the thread, just the things that made more than a subtle difference. it took longer that I expended to burn in, but there was a definite change in the sound. At first vocals seemed farther back in the sound stage, but after burn in that is no longer the case. I am very pleased with this DAC, very deep, 3D, with great detail and clarity. Hard to beat at any price. Thanks for the pointers.
PJN
The french I don't know but me... perhaps !
Yes It exists, manys words in fact :
, orCharlie Chaplin,
Deep Cosmos but the bass from Orion (look for Mars sound org), or
Death , or
My ears are blown, or
Sleep, or
Silence, I can't hear myself not speaking, or
....
In fact I am astonished by the modyfied Subbu version I maid with a final choice with the Panasonic LE in C22 and all the others choice elswhere writted in the pdf page 37, I listen to it everyday and believe now it's far better than all the others I tested at home even the ones you maid in page 1 (subjectivly, at home, on my system).
I don't feel the hurge to listen the JG buffer as the sound is incredible like that (miss a little more bass in the 80-120 hz region subjectivly that's all !)
Just wanted to know if you test it ( as you said you bought also the acrylic caps to try it before the regs) , agree with me or not in relation to your system or taste and feel to actualise your first page if yes as it's maybe a pity that no more people test it or report (bad or good) about it ! It's not really to have the last word, but you said you prefer the SA cap but have no tested all my whole conf when you writted it !
Eldam,
I finished my experiments with caps for C21, C22, and C32. Everyone should remember that my build now deviates significantly from the BOM, so my results may not translate to others. I use a LT1764a for the DAC PS and I use a JG buffer. In my latest DAC build, I like the following:
C21 - Panasonic 25SEP10M
C22 - Nichicon 470uf 16v FP cap
C32 - 1uf BG NX or Wima 1u MKS2 (2.5mm pin pitch)
I did find that the pins I was using for swapping in parts did seem to affect the results for C21 and C32. Once I soldered those parts in, I had to relisten to C22 and I came to a slightly different conclusion. C22 didn't seem to be as affected by the pins that allowed quick swaps, perhaps because I use a bigger than BOM ceramic bypass cap (C36 - I use 10uf instead of the BOM 1uf).
I have not tried the acrylic caps that you suggest before the regs yet (C5 and C19). I did try a 1uf acrylic cap for C31, which is part of the Vneg supply. I thought it sounded worse than the 1uf X7r ceramic cap that is in the BOM.
Like you, I now find the sound so good that I'm not motivated to do further experiments. But I do have the caps and I may do the experiment one of these days.
---Gary
Thank you to come out of the silence
I tried too with acrylic at C31 and all the position near the chip dac : it was hard to solder because too big and i found the same result as you and come back too for X7r but all in 603 case for inductance (not sure for a better instead 804 case!)!
But before the regs acrylic stay gooder than the tantalum (not tried like you the 10 uF X7R but as some fellows found the tantalum better than x7r you should try the 1 uf acrylic cap instead the day you will have time !) and adds an irresistible "je ne sais quoi !"
Happy you find the same result as me for C21 with SEP but the 25 uF (this value act as a magnyfing glass and make the tonal balance bad in my system, 10 uF is better at home) !
Finally you come back to the FP R7 cap instead the AS (or SA IIRC?) United Chemicon at C22... and found it better than LE serie for high frequencies... interresting, each systems need its own set up !
If you had an another board I tell you to try as me the 1 uf X7R for C4, but agree with you : if music is good enough time comes to enjoy the music !
Happy as well you finally join us to try the Distinctive-1541 coreboard, I hope you will give us good advices for output stages soon.
Finally with all these good tunings, I ask myself how it could sound with an async usb instead of the more jittery spidf ?!
I will try the 2 mm Mks2 definitly !
Cheers
Eldam
I tried too with acrylic at C31 and all the position near the chip dac : it was hard to solder because too big and i found the same result as you and come back too for X7r but all in 603 case for inductance (not sure for a better instead 804 case!)!
But before the regs acrylic stay gooder than the tantalum (not tried like you the 10 uF X7R but as some fellows found the tantalum better than x7r you should try the 1 uf acrylic cap instead the day you will have time !) and adds an irresistible "je ne sais quoi !"
Happy you find the same result as me for C21 with SEP but the 25 uF (this value act as a magnyfing glass and make the tonal balance bad in my system, 10 uF is better at home) !
Finally you come back to the FP R7 cap instead the AS (or SA IIRC?) United Chemicon at C22... and found it better than LE serie for high frequencies... interresting, each systems need its own set up !
If you had an another board I tell you to try as me the 1 uf X7R for C4, but agree with you : if music is good enough time comes to enjoy the music !
Happy as well you finally join us to try the Distinctive-1541 coreboard, I hope you will give us good advices for output stages soon.
Finally with all these good tunings, I ask myself how it could sound with an async usb instead of the more jittery spidf ?!
I will try the 2 mm Mks2 definitly !
Cheers
Eldam
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Hi all,
I decided to box up my second subbu. Been upgrading my amps and shigaclone the last few weeks and decided to compare my two subbu dacs again. I added a filter and boxed it in aluminum similar to subbu #1. Both have 1uf for C35. I think other differences are evident from photos. Im not sure there's a clearcut winner. there are minor differences to my ears but both are very, very fine. Thanks again to all the obsessive modifiers here.
I decided to box up my second subbu. Been upgrading my amps and shigaclone the last few weeks and decided to compare my two subbu dacs again. I added a filter and boxed it in aluminum similar to subbu #1. Both have 1uf for C35. I think other differences are evident from photos. Im not sure there's a clearcut winner. there are minor differences to my ears but both are very, very fine. Thanks again to all the obsessive modifiers here.
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At first I preferred the Salas. But after several upgrades to the dac boards, I need to test again. I've only compared the two separate dac's since upgrades. Maybe this weekend I can swap out dac boards and compare them. Regards.
hi Freeman,
Thank you for the thanks...
Your two Subbu are too close that's why maybe you hear not too big difference ! What are your speakers, did you try with a headphone and had the same sensation between both DAC ?
Please copy my design on pdf page 37... as the english is a shame to read, jump to the conclusions...
Give you a gift, make one totally different : I suggest you a mix if you haven't not Black-gate or old SEP from Sanyo : C32 : the 1 uf MKS2 2.5 mm pitch JP & Garry appreciate; C22 : Pan LE serie (constructor ref on the pdf), C21 : 10 uf SEP (not SEPC !), caps before the two ldo reg of both dac chip and XO : acrylic 1 UF , C4 : 1 uf X7R 604 case not bypassed by MKS2, if you have one : Black Gate 47 uf on the PS // to the output 4.7 cap or standalone (try both after the coreboard is finished).
You can go further too and change all the caps before all the regs as i do and change also the two main caps of the wolfson.
I suggest you to keep the board of the first picture and change the second one to compare genuine to the moddified.
I don't use JG buffer yet !
maybe you gave us your ref already : what is the cheaper ref of the left Box ? Mouser ?
thanks for sharing
cheers
Thank you for the thanks...
Your two Subbu are too close that's why maybe you hear not too big difference ! What are your speakers, did you try with a headphone and had the same sensation between both DAC ?
Please copy my design on pdf page 37... as the english is a shame to read, jump to the conclusions...
Give you a gift, make one totally different : I suggest you a mix if you haven't not Black-gate or old SEP from Sanyo : C32 : the 1 uf MKS2 2.5 mm pitch JP & Garry appreciate; C22 : Pan LE serie (constructor ref on the pdf), C21 : 10 uf SEP (not SEPC !), caps before the two ldo reg of both dac chip and XO : acrylic 1 UF , C4 : 1 uf X7R 604 case not bypassed by MKS2, if you have one : Black Gate 47 uf on the PS // to the output 4.7 cap or standalone (try both after the coreboard is finished).
You can go further too and change all the caps before all the regs as i do and change also the two main caps of the wolfson.
I suggest you to keep the board of the first picture and change the second one to compare genuine to the moddified.
I don't use JG buffer yet !
maybe you gave us your ref already : what is the cheaper ref of the left Box ? Mouser ?
thanks for sharing
cheers
Thanks, Eldam. This is the box I ordered from mouser.
1455T2202BK Hammond Manufacturing | Mouser.
Regards.
1455T2202BK Hammond Manufacturing | Mouser.
Regards.
Here is my latest work.
Sound is ok but i will tell some more in a few days. I tried some mods but about that later.
Can you tell me if sound changes a lot after 50-100hours?
Attention... multiple bypass at clock at last picture is not recomended.
On es9023 supply pins Yes.
Sound is ok but i will tell some more in a few days. I tried some mods but about that later.
Can you tell me if sound changes a lot after 50-100hours?
Attention... multiple bypass at clock at last picture is not recomended.
On es9023 supply pins Yes.
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Yes, the DAC needs some time. It changes from bright to natural sounding (some call it dark !).
As sent by you in PM I understood you has oscillating MIC regs with paralleling caps on the XO supply. Please give us more info as it seems fashion to do so (results are contrary to my experiments which indicated only 1 cap is enough).
BTW you should have used old fashioned leaded solder IMO.
As sent by you in PM I understood you has oscillating MIC regs with paralleling caps on the XO supply. Please give us more info as it seems fashion to do so (results are contrary to my experiments which indicated only 1 cap is enough).
BTW you should have used old fashioned leaded solder IMO.
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I will report all my ideas when dac get burn in.
Solder is mixing...*old* solder dia 0.5mm for big elements , for small smd and ssop part 0.3mm silver solder. The job is more precise ...without big blobs. BTW when using solder oil with smd or ssop ist much easier to do, even with silver solder or non leaded, which has highest melting temperature.
Solder is mixing...*old* solder dia 0.5mm for big elements , for small smd and ssop part 0.3mm silver solder. The job is more precise ...without big blobs. BTW when using solder oil with smd or ssop ist much easier to do, even with silver solder or non leaded, which has highest melting temperature.
Thank you to share !
I can't here difference with the different SMT caps in C17 for the clock : my best version has finally just 0.10 and 0.100 or 1 uf // ... don't remenber, have to read again my notes. The other has the three caps (MARCE+KORBEN69 inputs) : good soldering job on your photographs at C17... I had great difficulties...
Marce mentionned than multi caps is better at High Fhz. Is 50 M Hz very high ? Maybe not enough to hear the difference I don't know. I saw also than the Gnd leads of C17 is far from the Gnd pad which is at the opposite because the Crystal is maid like that : maybe it has an influence also ?! Marce is an expert in High frequancies design boards and maid also one personal boards inspired by the SUBBU design, he works a lot and don't know if he had time to finished it yet but I personnaly be happy if he could give us him listening impressions or anothers hints as well !
In my work, some caps needed more burn in like the Pan LE serie who came softier after 50 to 100 hours but not all. I surmise SALs need it but don't use it personaly... not yet. I use two Blak Gate in my cooked Subbu one on the PS : 47 uf // to the official 4.7 at the output of the PS (your town taste, try // or not) and one at C32 : they need to be reburned after a long break and play better at the beginning after many hours...
What are the 4N7 outcaps ? My experience is the Wima KP (pure polypropylen) give good result. Some on others project seems to like MKT Cornell Dublier also.
I have a second subbu with the other choice of the BOM here : good grey Vishay... IIRC : but here I have not tested side by side the two boards with just the different output caps so can not tell. IHMO it's important !
Hé in the left low corner your wolfson have one Sanyo cap and one SAL ???? and the // 0.1 uF seems to be a Philips ? Try with one PS with the official MKS2 here, same for the cap after the bridge : try without, with MKS2 and Philips. On this PS the green Vishay Rodenstein you use at 1 nao on your PS gave me bad results : awfull with the 4.7 uf cap like the O.1 uf (both positions after the bridge and // output).
Androa, You can ask your questions here and share your subjective listening impressions, I will pleased to share my personal tastes as it's never universal... fellows here have strong personnalities (JP the Knight with strong sword, Gary the silent rock, Eldam the springfull terrorist of caps...) But we are all gentlemen here, have all the love of sharing and DIY...and different ears and hifi systems also : so subjectives umpressions and talking are important. Thank
@ JP , hi... finally did you try my mods or discovers anothers good combinations ? can you sell me a 1 BG N at reasonable price please ? Or give me a tip for a replacement close to it (not the MKS2...) : SAL ?
I can't here difference with the different SMT caps in C17 for the clock : my best version has finally just 0.10 and 0.100 or 1 uf // ... don't remenber, have to read again my notes. The other has the three caps (MARCE+KORBEN69 inputs) : good soldering job on your photographs at C17... I had great difficulties...
Marce mentionned than multi caps is better at High Fhz. Is 50 M Hz very high ? Maybe not enough to hear the difference I don't know. I saw also than the Gnd leads of C17 is far from the Gnd pad which is at the opposite because the Crystal is maid like that : maybe it has an influence also ?! Marce is an expert in High frequancies design boards and maid also one personal boards inspired by the SUBBU design, he works a lot and don't know if he had time to finished it yet but I personnaly be happy if he could give us him listening impressions or anothers hints as well !
In my work, some caps needed more burn in like the Pan LE serie who came softier after 50 to 100 hours but not all. I surmise SALs need it but don't use it personaly... not yet. I use two Blak Gate in my cooked Subbu one on the PS : 47 uf // to the official 4.7 at the output of the PS (your town taste, try // or not) and one at C32 : they need to be reburned after a long break and play better at the beginning after many hours...
What are the 4N7 outcaps ? My experience is the Wima KP (pure polypropylen) give good result. Some on others project seems to like MKT Cornell Dublier also.
I have a second subbu with the other choice of the BOM here : good grey Vishay... IIRC : but here I have not tested side by side the two boards with just the different output caps so can not tell. IHMO it's important !
Hé in the left low corner your wolfson have one Sanyo cap and one SAL ???? and the // 0.1 uF seems to be a Philips ? Try with one PS with the official MKS2 here, same for the cap after the bridge : try without, with MKS2 and Philips. On this PS the green Vishay Rodenstein you use at 1 nao on your PS gave me bad results : awfull with the 4.7 uf cap like the O.1 uf (both positions after the bridge and // output).
Androa, You can ask your questions here and share your subjective listening impressions, I will pleased to share my personal tastes as it's never universal... fellows here have strong personnalities (JP the Knight with strong sword, Gary the silent rock, Eldam the springfull terrorist of caps...) But we are all gentlemen here, have all the love of sharing and DIY...and different ears and hifi systems also : so subjectives umpressions and talking are important. Thank
@ JP , hi... finally did you try my mods or discovers anothers good combinations ? can you sell me a 1 BG N at reasonable price please ? Or give me a tip for a replacement close to it (not the MKS2...) : SAL ?
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No problem wth sharing infos. I like that very much
The blue one was first test board.
Mistakes...
multiple bypasing for clock.... after mic NO GO...after other LT regulators i didn*t have so huuuuge oscillation.
After testing ...10uf tantal + 100nF x7r ..line on scope is almost completely straight. second best 4,7uf tantal and third one 1uf x7r ...after aded 0,1uf start oscillating. after aded 4,7uf or 10uf x7r ... enormous big oscilation.
Os con SP 10uf on position C13. Small noise in line...with Sal-rpm and 1uf +0.1uf x7r almost nothing. The same at C8 position Sal-rpm +1uf+0,1uf x7r
C22 first version 470 SEPC .... sound is a little to bright, not so 3d sound, bass has kick but i mis some sub frequencies.
Oscon SP 470uF gives me more balanced sound. I will see in a few days.
All suply pins are decoupled with 0.1uf direct on pins.
C35,34 plus on pins ....on pins 0.1uf C34 1uf x7r and on C35 1uf wima mks. I don*t have black gate...has anybody on sale 1 piece?
Input C4 iz 0603 1ufx7r plus ero1830 pulse cap 22nF , green was wima 0,1uf mkp
Output are styroflex KSP cap. I used it in earlier projects....are good no problem.
PS red wima 0,1 mkp and panasonic FM 2200uF green wima is mkp 1000pf for C7
I will wait day or 2 for sound changing and try Sepc 470uf again.
The blue one was first test board.
Mistakes...
multiple bypasing for clock.... after mic NO GO...after other LT regulators i didn*t have so huuuuge oscillation.
After testing ...10uf tantal + 100nF x7r ..line on scope is almost completely straight. second best 4,7uf tantal and third one 1uf x7r ...after aded 0,1uf start oscillating. after aded 4,7uf or 10uf x7r ... enormous big oscilation.
Os con SP 10uf on position C13. Small noise in line...with Sal-rpm and 1uf +0.1uf x7r almost nothing. The same at C8 position Sal-rpm +1uf+0,1uf x7r
C22 first version 470 SEPC .... sound is a little to bright, not so 3d sound, bass has kick but i mis some sub frequencies.
Oscon SP 470uF gives me more balanced sound. I will see in a few days.
All suply pins are decoupled with 0.1uf direct on pins.
C35,34 plus on pins ....on pins 0.1uf C34 1uf x7r and on C35 1uf wima mks. I don*t have black gate...has anybody on sale 1 piece?
Input C4 iz 0603 1ufx7r plus ero1830 pulse cap 22nF , green was wima 0,1uf mkp
Output are styroflex KSP cap. I used it in earlier projects....are good no problem.
PS red wima 0,1 mkp and panasonic FM 2200uF green wima is mkp 1000pf for C7
I will wait day or 2 for sound changing and try Sepc 470uf again.
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It seems my choice for SAL-RPM is not a bad one Too low ESR is a high risk with MIC regs (see datasheet which warns for using ceramic output caps)...whatever theory may say on decoupling high frequency devices. The ear combined with book wisdom are not always the best instruments. I only had it once with 1 uF X7R and changed C17 to 4.7 µF tantalum. I changed back because people reported that 1 µF X7R was a better choice. I used 1 µF X7R for C17 again on a next DAC I built and did not have oscillation which is odd. I later thought it might be dependent on what make and type XO is used. It can not be the MICs or the beads as I always use the same make and type. The Fox Xpresso are excellent XOs but they behave different from Euroquartz types. They draw way more current. I use both types randomly so I never tracked back what the problem exactly was. Anyhow, your tests show that paralleling caps for C17 is not wise to do. Thanks for testing.
You could try out Wima MKS2 1 µF in 2.5 mm pitch for C32. I like those best FWIW. Panasonic SEPC 470 µF for C22 also take some days to sound optimal. I see you used 180 µF SEPC for the recommended 100 µF caps. Interesting, I never used those there.
I like your choice for styroflex, one of the best caps for this purpose. I only have them in "naked" version so I did not use them. Your build looks very good except you did not use the Molex connectors. They really come handy when trying out DACs and I never experienced degradation of sound quality. Being an electro fundamentalist I also recommend these:
Too low ESR is a high risk with MIC regs (see datasheet which warns for using ceramic output caps)...whatever theory may say on decoupling high frequency devices. The ear combined with book wisdom are not always the best instruments. I only had it once with 1 uF X7R and changed C17 to 4.7 µF tantalum. I changed back because people reported that 1 µF X7R was a better choice. I used 1 µF X7R for C17 again on a next DAC I built and did not have oscillation which is odd. I later thought it might be dependent on what make and type XO is used. It can not be the MICs or the beads as I always use the same make and type. The Fox Xpresso are excellent XOs but they behave different from Euroquartz types. They draw way more current. I use both types randomly so I never tracked back what the problem exactly was. Anyhow, your tests show that paralleling caps for C17 is not wise to do. Thanks for testing.You could try out Wima MKS2 1 µF in 2.5 mm pitch for C32. I like those best FWIW. Panasonic SEPC 470 µF for C22 also take some days to sound optimal. I see you used 180 µF SEPC for the recommended 100 µF caps. Interesting, I never used those there.
I like your choice for styroflex, one of the best caps for this purpose. I only have them in "naked" version so I did not use them. Your build looks very good except you did not use the Molex connectors. They really come handy when trying out DACs and I never experienced degradation of sound quality. Being an electro fundamentalist I also recommend these:
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No problem wth sharing infos. I like that very much
The blue one was first test board.
Mistakes...
multiple bypasing for clock.... after mic NO GO...after other LT regulators i didn*t have so huuuuge oscillation.
After testing ...10uf tantal + 100nF x7r ..line on scope is almost completely straight. second best 4,7uf tantal and third one 1uf x7r ...after aded 0,1uf start oscillating. after aded 4,7uf or 10uf x7r ... enormous big oscilation.
Os con SP 10uf on position C13. Small noise in line...with Sal-rpm and 1uf +0.1uf x7r almost nothing. The same at C8 position Sal-rpm +1uf+0,1uf x7r
C22 first version 470 SEPC .... sound is a little to bright, not so 3d sound, bass has kick but i mis some sub frequencies.
Oscon SP 470uF gives me more balanced sound. I will see in a few days.
All suply pins are decoupled with 0.1uf direct on pins.
C35,34 plus on pins ....on pins 0.1uf C34 1uf x7r and on C35 1uf wima mks. I don*t have black gate...has anybody on sale 1 piece?
Input C4 iz 0603 1ufx7r plus ero1830 pulse cap 22nF , green was wima 0,1uf mkp
Output are styroflex KSP cap. I used it in earlier projects....are good no problem.
PS red wima 0,1 mkp and panasonic FM 2200uF green wima is mkp 1000pf for C7
I will wait day or 2 for sound changing and try Sepc 470uf again.
What do you advise finaly for C17 ?
One of the problem like I already write elsewhere is you started with a C18 SEPC... bad imho ! Stay with the good ASA polymer caps of the official BOM here.
I suggest you to read my pdf page 37 to understand the difference of sound in all the caps and arrengement I tried to try to match to your own tastes.
For C22, I think your SP should better with C18 changed. You can also try polymer LE serie at C22 : you will have a more detailed & lightly but not hard treble at the price of the loss of the analogic mate side of the Sanyo SP. This last has a more punchy bass than the LE, is strangly deeper because less details but its treble is a little dry as the tones in this range stay correct (strings, harmonica). It's a trade off that's why I gave the two choices in the pdf file and explained why. One hard test is the Cello suit from Bach played by Rostropovitch... well you can love both caps but the large range in fhz with cello is hard to follow. Here I have a preference to the SP, because the little acid crisp stay with less details in the high and the low end has a better match... what the FIP live with Musica Nuda and its solist bass confirm (correct tonal balance withh low reverb). third choice is SEP (less tighty and thin) than the SEPC, then in forth position the SEPC. Gary like himself the FP R7 serie from Pan. and another one I can't rememnber but testimonied above in the thread : IIRC it's the same as C18 maybe : an ASA cap.
Find myself than the C32 1 uf MKS2 add a a good emphasis but is a no go at home because the too tighty mid-bass (like a lake of harmonics) : I prefer a Black gate here even a simple 1 uf 2 mm pitch as I have nothing else better... gary seems to be agree here but with a small margin with the 2.5 mm pitch Wima MKS2 !
You should try the acrylic caps before the LDO regs : 1 uF, some say tantal wa sbetter here than 10 uf X7R! I just tried tantal but with acrylic here : no return is possible : but just before the ldos not after ! ( I didn't tried after but followed the JP advises about oscilations and the datasheet)
Of course you will not live anymore with another choice for C21 than a 10 uf SEP 25 Volt... not an sepc/f for the reasons you mentioned.
please replace your 0.1 uf at the output PS to try the MKS2 or a blue philips if you have. Is your green Vishay a MKP or a MKT... I just aware of the green MKT !
Well with all that mods I have a more analogic result in relation to the official one without lake of details and 3 choices with C22 to adapt in relation to the HIFI devices around the DAC.
need to say that's it's without the JG buffer, which seems to add for some more 3D soundstage and maybe minimize all the work above... don't know !
Have you the ref of the styroflex (Mouser/digikey ?)
@ JP, do you see my demand about the BG N above ? (hope you don't do your Monthy knight attitude against me, the price of the coconuts increase
hé nice photographs : is it organ pipes ? Here I use just the trough conductive holes of the vias and bend the caps leads in the bottom of the pcb to improve electrical contact : i just put a match below the body caps to improve the force contact... but stopped to smoke long time ago !
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