Any idea of a direct RCA module to avoid wires ?
Androa, what do you use for the wires between your BNC and the RCAs... it's important too : As I heard a difference I reduce it at a maximum and try to avoid it with RCas connectors ! I went for silvered copper for the RCAs with minimal length... but really want to do like I did with BNC : directly soldered on the PCB... so if any idea let me know about a ref on Mouser or Digikey !
Androa, what do you use for the wires between your BNC and the RCAs... it's important too : As I heard a difference I reduce it at a maximum and try to avoid it with RCas connectors ! I went for silvered copper for the RCAs with minimal length... but really want to do like I did with BNC : directly soldered on the PCB... so if any idea let me know about a ref on Mouser or Digikey !
thanks to answer, you 're my hero; it was just to verify your good memorie !
Hé you see I just ask you one question at one time ! I learn !
So no 1 uF BG N to sell , Maybe you can just give me one free
! You broke my dream !
Bottom of page 37 of this thread: pdf link above the two photographs.
No I mean the same acrylic Cornell Dublier caps you use as bypass in your PS with the big Pan FM ! I already wrote it adds a little irresistible je ne sais quoi when populated before the LDO in your core board.... Hummmm your memorie is selective !
have a good soirée !
PS JP : don't load it as you hate both my english (for good reasons) like my too long posts ! You will have head-aches... but it stays informativ for the others !
Hé you see I just ask you one question at one time ! I learn !
So no 1 uF BG N to sell , Maybe you can just give me one free
! You broke my dream !Bottom of page 37 of this thread: pdf link above the two photographs.
No I mean the same acrylic Cornell Dublier caps you use as bypass in your PS with the big Pan FM ! I already wrote it adds a little irresistible je ne sais quoi when populated before the LDO in your core board.... Hummmm your memorie is selective !
have a good soirée !
PS JP : don't load it as you hate both my english (for good reasons) like my too long posts ! You will have head-aches... but it stays informativ for the others !
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Eldam
Direct connection is always the best. Also at interconnects. Silver gold foil rca cable connected with screw sounded so differetnt Vs siver soldered that is hard to belive. Center pin must be screwed or crimped...solder gives away that magic of freedom and ultimate 3d presentation.
Rca connector ....hmm it will be hard to connect because of size...Maybe you can dril gnd on other side ...
You mean something like this?
http://kacsa-audio.hu/webshop/kacsa...connectors.c.156/rca_jack.c.162/rj140gt.p.248
You can buy from them or ebay.
I tried some different caps at C18....os con sp and muse KZ. Muse is better, more flesh at music. But.... replacing x7r with pps and again SEPC gives more relaxed sound. Similar as KZ but KZ still has a little more fuller sound but SEPC more resolution,
At FIM ..Nature concertos -Shenandoah.... water flow is excellent to hear ... at KZ, water is more *oilish* sounded. But wind is not so hissig more flowing.
I supplied material from farnell, and they don*t sell ASA caps any substitute? for C18
C17 is tantal 10uf and 0,1 x7r at my Dac
Can you describe difference in sound at position C21 vreg SAl vs SEP.
Direct connection is always the best. Also at interconnects. Silver gold foil rca cable connected with screw sounded so differetnt Vs siver soldered that is hard to belive. Center pin must be screwed or crimped...solder gives away that magic of freedom and ultimate 3d presentation.
Rca connector ....hmm it will be hard to connect because of size...Maybe you can dril gnd on other side ...
You mean something like this?
http://kacsa-audio.hu/webshop/kacsa...connectors.c.156/rca_jack.c.162/rj140gt.p.248
You can buy from them or ebay.
I tried some different caps at C18....os con sp and muse KZ. Muse is better, more flesh at music. But.... replacing x7r with pps and again SEPC gives more relaxed sound. Similar as KZ but KZ still has a little more fuller sound but SEPC more resolution,
At FIM ..Nature concertos -Shenandoah.... water flow is excellent to hear ... at KZ, water is more *oilish* sounded. But wind is not so hissig more flowing.
I supplied material from farnell, and they don*t sell ASA caps
any substitute? for C18C17 is tantal 10uf and 0,1 x7r at my Dac
Can you describe difference in sound at position C21 vreg SAl vs SEP.
Thank you for the link :
what I call the ASA caps for c18 is this one : APSF160ELL101MF05S United Chemi-Con | Mouser . Don't know why none of the others caps I tried were better here... it's not only about the esr, but ihmo must stay superior to 20 M ohms as JP said there is a risk of oscillation if too low esr before or just around the LDOs. But near the DAC chip : the very low esr is not really involved in the result with my experiments : low as higher give good result if find mixed with the uper C18 above. I stay with 1 uf X7R as bypass for C22. I surmise the higher value like 10 uf Gary tried erase the character of different C22 instead of the lower 1 uf bypass. After many tries few things to change for me in relation to the official BOM
constructor ref of LE caps is in my pdf
I had bad result with KZ Muse, BG N, at C21, C22, C18, etc better for me near an oap, buffer. It gave me bad result :lake of definition... but each system needs its setup. But C32/C35 with 1 uF Black gate is better for me !
I didn't try the C21 with SAL. C21 with SEP add more softness and flesher background, more relaxing without lake of definition. 25 SEPC was tried : horrible tonal balance for me, sound throw up in the face. Tried many chemical here without sucess but the SAL.
caps used before the regs are : FCA1210C105M-G2 : important part of my tweaking at home.
what I call the ASA caps for c18 is this one : APSF160ELL101MF05S United Chemi-Con | Mouser . Don't know why none of the others caps I tried were better here... it's not only about the esr, but ihmo must stay superior to 20 M ohms as JP said there is a risk of oscillation if too low esr before or just around the LDOs. But near the DAC chip : the very low esr is not really involved in the result with my experiments : low as higher give good result if find mixed with the uper C18 above. I stay with 1 uf X7R as bypass for C22. I surmise the higher value like 10 uf Gary tried erase the character of different C22 instead of the lower 1 uf bypass. After many tries few things to change for me in relation to the official BOM
constructor ref of LE caps is in my pdf
I had bad result with KZ Muse, BG N, at C21, C22, C18, etc better for me near an oap, buffer. It gave me bad result :lake of definition... but each system needs its setup. But C32/C35 with 1 uF Black gate is better for me !
I didn't try the C21 with SAL. C21 with SEP add more softness and flesher background, more relaxing without lake of definition. 25 SEPC was tried : horrible tonal balance for me, sound throw up in the face. Tried many chemical here without sucess but the SAL.
caps used before the regs are : FCA1210C105M-G2 : important part of my tweaking at home.
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Suubu mesurement
JP, did you do any mesurements of parameters for SUBBU dac?
Noise thd...
I want to do it yesterday, but time is not my friend.
Me and my friend who has more mesurement equipment, were trouhght some parameters.
Remesure al the regulators...and starting to mesure snr,
There we got on one strange situation.
1 graph... on output of dac. bnc connected or not both gives same graph.
Forget 50-100hz noise because of open line wires, trafos... because dac is not instaled in case.
But at around 700hz and again in 1,2,3 harmonics til 2800hz, is present strange noise???
Metal cover didn*t solve the problem. We do some dac checking, all is ok.
Then i touch first regulator...ups noise is gone ...???
More precisely vhen i touch with finger or metal screwdriver bypass pin 4 on Wolfson supply rail ...U5 and U6 the noise is gone....2 graph
After checking MIC pdf... we get to graph where is shown that bypass cap can be til 10nF but startup will be longer and noise smaller. I tried and replace 470pf with 10nf at both regulators. Almost the same result. Noise is still present. I put ceramics before regulator out...nothing.
Lets go on. I tried also at other 2 regulators for ES9023 MIC3,6V and on clock supply 3,3v. After touching baypas cap noise get dramatically worse at all the spectrum. After measuremet supply pins at clock, after touching the cap we get hughe noise in rails...the same at es9023 position and input at PVDD and DVDD supply pins. Touching the input capacitor C9 and C12 not cause any problem or difference at both graphs.
3 graph is modified Dacmagic scope....If we could get rid of this nasty 700hz noise it is wery good noise performance. The hour was late so we couldnt do other thd mesurements.
Did anybody do mesurements for SUBBU DAC?? Can somebody do it? I am not abble to do it for a while.
JP, did you do any mesurements of parameters for SUBBU dac?
Noise thd...
I want to do it yesterday, but time is not my friend.
Me and my friend who has more mesurement equipment, were trouhght some parameters.
Remesure al the regulators...and starting to mesure snr,
There we got on one strange situation.
1 graph... on output of dac. bnc connected or not both gives same graph.
Forget 50-100hz noise because of open line wires, trafos... because dac is not instaled in case.
But at around 700hz and again in 1,2,3 harmonics til 2800hz, is present strange noise???
Metal cover didn*t solve the problem. We do some dac checking, all is ok.
Then i touch first regulator...ups noise is gone ...???
More precisely vhen i touch with finger or metal screwdriver bypass pin 4 on Wolfson supply rail ...U5 and U6 the noise is gone....2 graph
After checking MIC pdf... we get to graph where is shown that bypass cap can be til 10nF but startup will be longer and noise smaller. I tried and replace 470pf with 10nf at both regulators. Almost the same result. Noise is still present. I put ceramics before regulator out...nothing.
Lets go on. I tried also at other 2 regulators for ES9023 MIC3,6V and on clock supply 3,3v. After touching baypas cap noise get dramatically worse at all the spectrum. After measuremet supply pins at clock, after touching the cap we get hughe noise in rails...the same at es9023 position and input at PVDD and DVDD supply pins. Touching the input capacitor C9 and C12 not cause any problem or difference at both graphs.
3 graph is modified Dacmagic scope....If we could get rid of this nasty 700hz noise it is wery good noise performance. The hour was late so we couldnt do other thd mesurements.
Did anybody do mesurements for SUBBU DAC?? Can somebody do it? I am not abble to do it for a while.
Attachments
Hi ANDROA, can you hear this distorsion or is it just annoying to see it on the scope measurement ?
If the distorsion is pleasant, maybe not a problem... e.g. sometimes you change a cap, it's worst on the scope but more pleasant to the ears because better match in relation to the whole hifi-system ?
Do you try the acrylic Cornell Dubliers caps before the Micrel ? And first of course the 4.7 tantalum before the Micrel LDOs than a majority seem to prefer with empiric listening in the relation to the allowed choice of the BOM with 10 uf X7R ? Found myself 1 uF acrylics were better at leat in my system and worth a try IMHO.
If the distorsion is pleasant, maybe not a problem... e.g. sometimes you change a cap, it's worst on the scope but more pleasant to the ears because better match in relation to the whole hifi-system ?
Do you try the acrylic Cornell Dubliers caps before the Micrel ? And first of course the 4.7 tantalum before the Micrel LDOs than a majority seem to prefer with empiric listening in the relation to the allowed choice of the BOM with 10 uf X7R ? Found myself 1 uF acrylics were better at leat in my system and worth a try IMHO.
Hearing or not hearing....dac must be technically good...so the measuremets must be in range of specs.
After that is finese tuning like you, I and all the others do.
On your picture I see PPS caps and I have also gave it. Sound is not so glass sounded and resolution is good. Do you change it to black Acryll type? What is difference in comparison to PPS?
Can you post a picture of yours today*s version of SUBBU dac...so SUPPLY and the DAC?
After all reading, i can*t follow anymore ... can you tell me when i have ASA cap 100uf at C18 what is best cap for C22....470uf/10V oscon SP, SEP, SEPC, LE?
In my town we order Mouser every 10days. When I get all the material that i couldn*t get it at Farnell.... i will change it and report.
Thank you.
After that is finese tuning like you, I and all the others do.
On your picture I see PPS caps and I have also gave it. Sound is not so glass sounded and resolution is good. Do you change it to black Acryll type? What is difference in comparison to PPS?
Can you post a picture of yours today*s version of SUBBU dac...so SUPPLY and the DAC?
After all reading, i can*t follow anymore ... can you tell me when i have ASA cap 100uf at C18 what is best cap for C22....470uf/10V oscon SP, SEP, SEPC, LE?
In my town we order Mouser every 10days. When I get all the material that i couldn*t get it at Farnell.... i will change it and report.
Thank you.
"Hearing or not hearing....dac must be technically good...so the measurements must be in range of specs.
After that is finese tuning like you, I and all the others do."
I don't know as the final listening tool and goal are my ears... which I suppose are technaly good as I have no better tools to replace it ! i surmise also a DAC is not a Space ship and I 'm not agree with this sort of sentences ! Measurement in the science is to test an assertion not the contrary. Oh man all the bad DACS I heard with good scopes screen ! Prefer a good distorsion if it adds to the musicality ! All our systems are full of distorsions ! You don't listen your scope and I know famous designer who are exactly thinking the opposite of your sentence. They check the scope also but why do you believe than some men like T. Loesch e.g. buyed a big stock of Sanyo SP caps before they diseapper with the futur line and the change of dielectric and technology ? They are better one on the scope, but they know what the musicality mean : it allows defaults to serve this goal, and this not a chance if they choose parts by parts in relation to the others and just check the scope where they found its more important IHMO ! Why does this thread exist ? JP/Subbu maid already the work before but here we go further than the scope, some prefer third distorsion to more accurate tones, some others second order distorsion to stop harchness...
just above i give you a ref : this is the acrylic caps, same as my photograph (the other photograph is tantalum).
I always answer to your question twice above recently and in the pdf !
I can do it one more time, no problem : PS : genuine BOM one with panasonic 4.7 and 2 x 0.1 Wimas of the BOM (not the grey Vishays) but the 4.7 uF of the out which I replace for a standard Black Gate of 47 uf (yes 10 x greater value but of course lower than the inputs ones of the other board). All others MKT and tries with it gave me worser results.
None of the two photographs describe my coreboard DAC but the description in the PDF (bottom page 37 of this thread). On the three choices I gave for C22 in relation to my entire tweaking before in the pdf to match to different personnality of system the SP is the winner, but sometimes the very good resolution of treble of the LE can make it a better choice in relation to the disc played (so it is on my second Subbu). But in a desert island the SP win both for its analogic mate side, darkerer background without really loss of resolution and its lively bass-mid bass and accurate tonal balance at home. I would like to have a Staxx headphones to have a more universal answer but haven't unluckikily ! i surmise the LE to be a better choice for some others DACs as I advise recently for the TDA1541; just a swap can easily answer to this !
i would appreciate your future testimonie about two caps please : C32 for the 2.5 mm pitch you will find at Mouser and for C22 the 470 or 560 uF R7 polymer serie of the FP range of Panasonic (at 30 uf they gave me bad result, but Gary appreciate it at C22 and try like many things and almost all my tweaks but the better last unlickily - for the discussion because he's right to stop if the result match him tastes... hearing music stay a better hobby than to write even if we have all the hapiness to have the JP/Subbu because they write and share as we do to allow a modest more turn of wheel.
i hope that helps.
After that is finese tuning like you, I and all the others do."
I don't know as the final listening tool and goal are my ears... which I suppose are technaly good as I have no better tools to replace it ! i surmise also a DAC is not a Space ship and I 'm not agree with this sort of sentences ! Measurement in the science is to test an assertion not the contrary. Oh man all the bad DACS I heard with good scopes screen ! Prefer a good distorsion if it adds to the musicality ! All our systems are full of distorsions ! You don't listen your scope and I know famous designer who are exactly thinking the opposite of your sentence. They check the scope also but why do you believe than some men like T. Loesch e.g. buyed a big stock of Sanyo SP caps before they diseapper with the futur line and the change of dielectric and technology ? They are better one on the scope, but they know what the musicality mean : it allows defaults to serve this goal, and this not a chance if they choose parts by parts in relation to the others and just check the scope where they found its more important IHMO ! Why does this thread exist ? JP/Subbu maid already the work before but here we go further than the scope, some prefer third distorsion to more accurate tones, some others second order distorsion to stop harchness...
just above i give you a ref : this is the acrylic caps, same as my photograph (the other photograph is tantalum).
I always answer to your question twice above recently and in the pdf !
I can do it one more time, no problem : PS : genuine BOM one with panasonic 4.7 and 2 x 0.1 Wimas of the BOM (not the grey Vishays) but the 4.7 uF of the out which I replace for a standard Black Gate of 47 uf (yes 10 x greater value but of course lower than the inputs ones of the other board). All others MKT and tries with it gave me worser results.
None of the two photographs describe my coreboard DAC but the description in the PDF (bottom page 37 of this thread). On the three choices I gave for C22 in relation to my entire tweaking before in the pdf to match to different personnality of system the SP is the winner, but sometimes the very good resolution of treble of the LE can make it a better choice in relation to the disc played (so it is on my second Subbu). But in a desert island the SP win both for its analogic mate side, darkerer background without really loss of resolution and its lively bass-mid bass and accurate tonal balance at home. I would like to have a Staxx headphones to have a more universal answer but haven't unluckikily ! i surmise the LE to be a better choice for some others DACs as I advise recently for the TDA1541; just a swap can easily answer to this !
i would appreciate your future testimonie about two caps please : C32 for the 2.5 mm pitch you will find at Mouser and for C22 the 470 or 560 uF R7 polymer serie of the FP range of Panasonic (at 30 uf they gave me bad result, but Gary appreciate it at C22 and try like many things and almost all my tweaks but the better last unlickily - for the discussion because he's right to stop if the result match him tastes... hearing music stay a better hobby than to write even if we have all the hapiness to have the JP/Subbu because they write and share as we do to allow a modest more turn of wheel.
i hope that helps.
Androa - I'm very interested in your measurement results. Please keep us up to date. I did pull out my oscilloscope and measured the power supply voltages from all the regulators and they are very clean with no oscillation. But I don't have the kind of spectrum analyzer that you used to measure very low level noise.
Regarding the choice of capacitors, I agree with Eldam that UCC ASA capacitors sound very good for C3 and C18. I've used both 100uf and 220uf for these capacitors. I use 10uf MLCC X7R as the bypass capacitors. In the DAC that I built using 100uf, I had the best results with 560uf 6.3v UCC APSE capacitors - part # APSE6R3ELL561MF08S. I also like the Nichicon FP 470uf 16v capacitors. They give the impression of slightly more bass than the UCC APSE. Sometimes this can sound too dark. In the latest build I find the sound is still changing a bit so I'm reserving final judgement. I keep swapping between the DAC with the UCC caps vs. the Nichicon caps and still haven't reached a final decision.
Despite repeated requests from Eldam, I have not tried the LE caps he likes for C22 or the acrylic capacitor bypass for C3 / C18. I have the acrylic caps but not the LE caps so I need yet another order to Mouser. Sorry to keep Eldam waiting - I can feel his impatience across the ocean!
---Gary
Can you hear this little wind which announce this tsunami of questions comming from France ?No problem Gary and we have all different system... so (but I surmise your medium to be on a very good quality because your speaker and amp (not as sure about you bass and mid bass...because the size !). You use the buffer ; I'm ashamed no to have test the EUVL-JG buffer yet ! In fact I need 2 Sussumu resistors, so I'm waiting for my next big enough need at Mouser ! And I surmise I will test the two values for shunt resistor : the one of JG and the one of EUVL. But a punchy and no noisy PS for it stay a challenge, like the 4 aluminium bypass caps... very high local ESR... but sure these two are not beginners !
Finally agree with you, when it's good we find more times for hearing music... hé I listen often these times this "little guy" from your countrie: Aron Copland: Apalachian springs, Billy the Kid, ... a great pleasure... he's a genius !
I 'll really like to have a direct RCAs plugs to avoid the wires...
That is a very right statement IMO but we're talking -105 dB here am I right ? I did measure but since results were OK I haven't kept results. In fact this project was finished quite a while ago. I would have to redo everything but to be honest I don't feel for that. I can't keep up with all the parts that have been changed too. Our initial version was without pecularities AFAIK except for an odd oscillation issue with C17 (with 1 µF X7R). I deliberately choose not too low ESR parts to avoid oscillation of the regs which has been challenged by using very low ESR parts. I used ceramic caps close to the power supply pins as compensation. Meanwhile I have been using SEPC 470 µF for C22 myself too
.I won't join the "tuning by cap selection" discussions anymore though. I feel some can fill a lifetime with that and although differences can be heard my experience is that results of today can differ from tomorrows results. In other words, it can depend on the person (and his/hers mood of that day) testing...
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Well, finally you didn't keep time to try something else as you mentionned.
You know, no shame to fill the life with an hobby if it's not the only one ! How does your plane look now ?
Of course it can depend on the person and sometimes just one person, here at homr many personns are agree like some visitors (I keep your advise to have a reference). I believe a more trully sentence is :
Some moods are better than others and after that minimal level some match best with your system, so it depends more about the system than the person. That's why I tried to do like you in your BOM and gave just 3 choices at C22 (unluckily SEPC is not one od the third anymore) trying to imagine what 3 different personnality of system can do for people! Unluckily too much choices at many location is more confusing than anythingelse to see all the different versions... And not all the people have the rigo(u)r you, Gary or I have !
If 2 or 3 PCBs left, our life time give the envy to few more people to find a pcb : see GB section.
Cheers,
good luck and time on your new project
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+1
By the way : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...ead-building-subbu-dac-v3-se.html#post3689793
Did you stay with chemical Panasonic FM on C22, C35 or grey 4n7 Vishay for the output
Save your time and go for the advises here and the time shared by people like me or Gary. It will you save your time both with better future listening My pleasure :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-37.html#post3923285 (read the pdf) : this is my last modification.
For the PS board : the BOM with the 4.7 FM cap for the ref and a 47 uf Black gate instead the 4.7 uf output cap. Bypass of the big FM are the Cornell Dubliers acrylic of the BOM and the 0.1 input and output cap are the Wimas of the BOM.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-37.html#post3923285 (read the pdf) : this is my last modification.
For the PS board : the BOM with the 4.7 FM cap for the ref and a 47 uf Black gate instead the 4.7 uf output cap. Bypass of the big FM are the Cornell Dubliers acrylic of the BOM and the 0.1 input and output cap are the Wimas of the BOM.
Yes I know, you work like a computer : one input and one output at once ! And I know my english is horrible to read when it's your mother language as you but hope it's understandable in a "same same but different" way like in India !
I'm very ashamed with my DIY english and apologize. I was describing in the pdf my system and all the transformation to allow people to understand each modification and how it sounds to help them to imagine the result with their own sound system !
I'm not believing on a absolute top rank of caps, btw I gave 3 of my preferd choice for C22 and tried to have just one conf for all the caps around not to waste the time of others like I did (but for me it's a pleaure as I'm a simple man). I like when people like Gary give all the details like him speakers or amp to allow to understand him own work : I think it is a very serious how to do !
I believe a system must be clearee with all the devices of the chain. I already wrote it's a hard sport to have a neutral BOM as you success to do.
Here it's tweaking but if you try it or like it, just use it for a BOM or a V4... Or if Gary like it : no problem to refresh the first page with my informations.
To be enterely honnest : I don't know if the JG buffer work with it but in the same spirit than you did (without buffer) I believe it's a very good conf (the pdf one). Unluckily two caps are so hard too source as discontinued: even you don't answer then I ask for a BG N of 1 uf. So it's a modyfied BOM not for all ! But... it's also better than the genuine BOM then swapping the two discontinued cap by the second choice on C22 and using your choice for C32 on your BOM... and of course using all my conf caps around it !
Quote of the week :
but hope it's understandable in a "same same but different" way like in India !I'm very ashamed with my DIY english and apologize. I was describing in the pdf my system and all the transformation to allow people to understand each modification and how it sounds to help them to imagine the result with their own sound system !
I'm not believing on a absolute top rank of caps, btw I gave 3 of my preferd choice for C22 and tried to have just one conf for all the caps around not to waste the time of others like I did (but for me it's a pleaure as I'm a simple man). I like when people like Gary give all the details like him speakers or amp to allow to understand him own work : I think it is a very serious how to do !
I believe a system must be clearee with all the devices of the chain. I already wrote it's a hard sport to have a neutral BOM as you success to do.
Here it's tweaking but if you try it or like it, just use it for a BOM or a V4... Or if Gary like it : no problem to refresh the first page with my informations.
To be enterely honnest : I don't know if the JG buffer work with it but in the same spirit than you did (without buffer) I believe it's a very good conf (the pdf one). Unluckily two caps are so hard too source as discontinued: even you don't answer then I ask for a BG N of 1 uf
. So it's a modyfied BOM not for all ! But... it's also better than the genuine BOM then swapping the two discontinued cap by the second choice on C22 and using your choice for C32 on your BOM... and of course using all my conf caps around it ! Quote of the week :
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