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I listened to XL Frugal Horns (Alpair 10.3) recently. It did not have the magic that I've become used to with my mini-K's. It sounded very relaxed and non-fatiguing, though. Something I could listen to all day, but almost no soundstage. Would a K-aperture on the XLFH's bring out the magic?
I've found that the closest you can get to the soundstage and dispersion of a karlson type is open baffle, bipole, and some multi-ways with rear firing drivers. Horns sound great, but don't give you that "right there" feeling unless in a large well treated room, in comparison... at least in my opinion.
I think adding an aperture wouldn't be ideal, it would end up a bit funky unless you optimised it, and then you may as well build an all new speaker, really.
Yeah, I was just kidding - out of frustration I think.
Thanks for the additional info about how different types of speakers sound. It's a bitter pill to swallow knowing that I've hit a wall sound-wise with my Karlsonators. The upgrade path is not easy.
However, there is consolation in knowing that I chose the right speakers in my thread: ACA Speaker short list. I think some guys build lots of different types of speakers before they find ones that they like. I managed to do it the first time!
you can use high qts in sealed back Karlson (Karlson had a sheet where he recommended that for some speakers and sold one K12 unvented with instructions for venting for various drivers) - fwiw a Polk 6.5" in a K8 with vents sealed and subjectively it was acceptable. (could aperiodic venting help? - one guy had a high QTS 12" in a K12 and made an aperiodic vent for the back panel)
X- can you easily shut off the vent in your K15 simulator?
LaVoce has a $21.66 6.5" coax - its qts isn't much higher than what I measured for LCao F6 which in a Karlsonator 6 ( CSF061's fs is somewhat higher)
http://www.lavocespeakers.com/lavoce/assets/datasheets/LAVOCE_CSF061.20_6.5in_COAXIAL_A.a.pdf
LaVoce CSF061.20 6.5" Coaxial Speaker
X- can you easily shut off the vent in your K15 simulator?
LaVoce has a $21.66 6.5" coax - its qts isn't much higher than what I measured for LCao F6 which in a Karlsonator 6 ( CSF061's fs is somewhat higher)
http://www.lavocespeakers.com/lavoce/assets/datasheets/LAVOCE_CSF061.20_6.5in_COAXIAL_A.a.pdf
LaVoce CSF061.20 6.5" Coaxial Speaker
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On-axis is pretty hot-
Price isn't too bad though. If they had a 4 ohm I would be interested in running a set in my car (73 super beetle, rear shelf and front kick panels, so off-axis they would probably be pretty good) but that's another show
Attachments
ah that's that crazy one "optimized" for 45 degrees off axis. Looking at the AHE7166 in a closed box, things aren't helped a lot by going to 3rd order at 16 liters - 20 liters looks ok
with a pretty impulse. Rg has to be low for cap assisted closed boxes to work.
20 liter box - 900uF cap (would be 450uF typical for 8 ohm drivers)
with a pretty impulse. Rg has to be low for cap assisted closed boxes to work.
20 liter box - 900uF cap (would be 450uF typical for 8 ohm drivers)
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On axis hot may be magically transformed by the K aperture to be acceptably flat. This was the case with CHN-70 which had a large mid range hot “mesa” shaped response that sounds quite nice once inside a K aperture of a 0.47x Karlsonator. I’ll try to look at a sealed K12 sim for you Freddi. Bass is generally lacking with a sealed alignment though.
here's a 12" DVC MCM woofer I've had in a K12 - its specs are dead on and it was used by the late Marshall Leach in a sub sat system. If a similar woofer could be found which was somewhat
smoother on the top, then would make a sealed back chamber - punchy K12 which goes pretty low
Product Overview
Dual voice coils are suitable for use with passive subwoofer crossovers and may be paralleled for use with most subwoofer amplifier modules. It is also perfectly suitable as a conventional 4ohm or 16ohm woofer.
Poly treated paper cone
Rubber surround
Stamped steel basket
2” voice coil
42. 6oz. magnet :
Power Capacity: 100W/200W RMS/peak (per coil)
Sensitivity: 93dB (W/M)
Impedance: 8Ω (per coil)
Re: 5. 8Ω (per coil)
Le: 0. 59mH (per coil)
Frequency response: 25Hz~3KHz
Fs: 25Hz
Qts: 0. 30
Qes: 0. 32
Qms: 3. 13
Vas: 203. 81 (liters)
Xmax: 5. 0mm Dimensions:
Overall frame diameter: 11. 81”
Required cutout: 11. 00”
Mounting depth: 5. 47
mic laying on floor response - maybe the added resonator per MMJ Karlflex
could produce a smoother response (? - or does that only work with vented K ?)
1100uF might be right for the coils in parallel
what I don't know is how smooth the response can be made by varying
cavity depth, proportions and baffle tilt - a test mule might be needed
smoother on the top, then would make a sealed back chamber - punchy K12 which goes pretty low
Product Overview
Dual voice coils are suitable for use with passive subwoofer crossovers and may be paralleled for use with most subwoofer amplifier modules. It is also perfectly suitable as a conventional 4ohm or 16ohm woofer.
Poly treated paper cone
Rubber surround
Stamped steel basket
2” voice coil
42. 6oz. magnet :
Power Capacity: 100W/200W RMS/peak (per coil)
Sensitivity: 93dB (W/M)
Impedance: 8Ω (per coil)
Re: 5. 8Ω (per coil)
Le: 0. 59mH (per coil)
Frequency response: 25Hz~3KHz
Fs: 25Hz
Qts: 0. 30
Qes: 0. 32
Qms: 3. 13
Vas: 203. 81 (liters)
Xmax: 5. 0mm Dimensions:
Overall frame diameter: 11. 81”
Required cutout: 11. 00”
Mounting depth: 5. 47
mic laying on floor response - maybe the added resonator per MMJ Karlflex
could produce a smoother response (? - or does that only work with vented K ?)
1100uF might be right for the coils in parallel
what I don't know is how smooth the response can be made by varying
cavity depth, proportions and baffle tilt - a test mule might be needed
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this other Lavoce 6.5cx graph is "normal"
http://www.lavocespeakers.com/lavoce/assets/datasheets/LAVOCE_CSF061.20_6.5in_COAXIAL_A.a.pdf
http://www.lavocespeakers.com/lavoce/assets/datasheets/LAVOCE_CSF061.20_6.5in_COAXIAL_A.a.pdf
Give me me 2-3 days guys - a bit busy lately. I have never heard a proper 1955 K-15 before. Need to do that one of these days. Freddi says the dynamics, especially in drum kits is intense.
Perceval,
If you can get me the TS parameters for the AHE7166 in Akabak format that would be helpful.
Perceval,
If you can get me the TS parameters for the AHE7166 in Akabak format that would be helpful.
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No problem, X... don't want to give you trouble. Whenever you can... or maybe you can't because I don't have Bl nor Mms, is that a deal breaker? We could try to guess those... otherwise, I'll have to buy a pair and use DATS on them.
Def_Driver 'AHE7166' | AHE 7166 Qts 0.94, 3.0mm xmax, 100w 90.3dB
Sd=132.1cm2
fs=78Hz
Mms=xxg
Qms=3.94
Qes=1.23
Re=3.4ohm
BL=x.xTm
Le=0.11mH
Vas=7.5L
Def_Driver 'AHE7166' | AHE 7166 Qts 0.94, 3.0mm xmax, 100w 90.3dB
Sd=132.1cm2
fs=78Hz
Mms=xxg
Qms=3.94
Qes=1.23
Re=3.4ohm
BL=x.xTm
Le=0.11mH
Vas=7.5L
It's good to dream...
There's yet the chance that a single driver running 30Hz to 20kHz might be invented... someday... maybe.
I think you should be looking at something like a FAST setup.
A TL sub, used as a column to sit the mini-k's on top sporting smaller drivers to reach up high.
Then, there will be room modes in your 5x4 room... you'll have peaks and cancellations galore. So, flat? might not happen... unless you heavily plaster room treatments all over and use EQ and DRC room correction extensively.
Then, you'll have a chance to get them flat!
But... it is good to dream! I do it too!
Found a good one that would suit my needs and could be handed over to a 2 way ontop to reach 20kHz - great dimensions for my room too - thread is here Karlson Cabinet
I forgot about that massive tapped horn Freddi has.
I think you may not really need 20Hz extension - that’s home theatre style rumble and maybe the lowest notes of a full size cathedral organ pipe. 40Hz is all you need for music (low note on bass) and room gain gives you 30Hz for free. Go with the much more compact Karlflex posted above the tall sub you linked.
Really, looking for a 20Hz Karlson sub is really not needed. Unless you listen to a lot of organ music. If you want home theater movie sound effects and rumble, get a $100 cube shaped HT sub with built in plate amp.
