Sounds interesting freddi. For me, the 'midbass' is going to be between my sub and then the HF horns...so the range of about 150Hz-1kHz.
Does RCA-Fan's folded horn you've shown here cover something like that?
Does RCA-Fan's folded horn you've shown here cover something like that?
I find a short 15 straight horn down to 80 or lower is the best compromise because it is easiest to integrate in a home with a folded basshorn below it and a straight midhorn above it. When you fold the midbass horn it in most cases mucks up the midrange - the Sato with it's elegant curved path may be better in the midrange then the folded midbass horns I have but you still need to deal with the path length difference to the midrange horn.
my old Edgarhorn System 100 used a JBL2220H with 80 sq.in. throat and around a 20"x20" mouth with 20" path - went to about 500 fairly flat where the midhorn horn kicked in - analog vocals were nice. I'll dig up Bill Woods graph for the 70Hz hypex. An alternative I like would be a little Karlson type and playable without a sub. A K-tube slotted pipe tweeter is the way to go for that setup.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7111/2bkxs7.jpg
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/9727/115bkside1sr4.jpg
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7111/2bkxs7.jpg
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/9727/115bkside1sr4.jpg
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
There's no free lunch, if the tweeter in horn A would be mounted +_ above where the voice coil of the woofer would be, it would have to move back 1 meter in horn B. 🙄 Back to the drawing board. A straight horn with a big 12 or 15 inch woofer is getting more and attractive.
ok, now we are getting close !!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you need a bass/lower mid horn ideally flat from 150hz to 1khz.
Straight horn for a 12" or a 15" (no eq to get to 150hz).
Now we can argue over how big a mouth and how deep the horn is !!!!!!!!!!!!
Norman
So you need a bass/lower mid horn ideally flat from 150hz to 1khz.
Straight horn for a 12" or a 15" (no eq to get to 150hz).
Now we can argue over how big a mouth and how deep the horn is !!!!!!!!!!!!
Norman
Sounds like fun! 🙂
Well, the T18 sub has an 18"x18" footprint, so it would be nice if I could make something stackable...though an exact fit isn't necessary. The diagonal comes to just under 24.5".
Still, there's there are the options of using a curved horn (like the Sato), or a folded design as recently mentioned...as well as the horns that freddi mentioned earlier in this thread (which would work well in a corner in terms of diagonal placement).
Well, the T18 sub has an 18"x18" footprint, so it would be nice if I could make something stackable...though an exact fit isn't necessary. The diagonal comes to just under 24.5".
Still, there's there are the options of using a curved horn (like the Sato), or a folded design as recently mentioned...as well as the horns that freddi mentioned earlier in this thread (which would work well in a corner in terms of diagonal placement).
it could be useful to get hornresp , set it for an 18" wide horn and examine what might happen with a few drivers and changes in throat, path etc. T18 is a cool little size.
bass really doesn't couple well below (especially below 100hz).
Check out the manufacturer's data on the bent bass horns.
"A well thought out and well constructed double 12 bass horn with a 25hz taper rate and 18mm Baltic Birch (EAW).
A single cabinet shows the dip just above Fc from the small mouth. The 2x2 array shows, what, maybe 1.5dB improvement at 30hz, and maybe 3dB at 60hz. It almost makes its theoretical 6dB at 200hz. These are normalized for 1W, in actual use each 4R box would be on its own amp channel so the 2x2 curve would be 6dB higher (and 4W total going in).
We are NOT going to get the 6dB of increase in efficiency that the theory predicts (because the cabinets are made of wood), and it doesn't look like a block of four go any lower than a single either. "
Now we can apply boost to that, and it takes it better spread over 4 drivers instead of 1.
Anway, 150hz should be fine to make 2 boxes.
Flat to 150hz sitting on a floor, I'm thinking 24" x 24" (I'm guessing) and 1/2 octave lower than mouth for length (1/4 wavelength of 100hz), so 2.8' deep from mouth to cone.
You ok with that ?
There is something about a shorter horn path length due to a larger throat, but I'm not sure. I havn't seen papers or any comparisons, just what people have said.
I just think of an altec a5 or 7 not horn loading below 200hz very much.
Norman
Check out the manufacturer's data on the bent bass horns.
"A well thought out and well constructed double 12 bass horn with a 25hz taper rate and 18mm Baltic Birch (EAW).
A single cabinet shows the dip just above Fc from the small mouth. The 2x2 array shows, what, maybe 1.5dB improvement at 30hz, and maybe 3dB at 60hz. It almost makes its theoretical 6dB at 200hz. These are normalized for 1W, in actual use each 4R box would be on its own amp channel so the 2x2 curve would be 6dB higher (and 4W total going in).
We are NOT going to get the 6dB of increase in efficiency that the theory predicts (because the cabinets are made of wood), and it doesn't look like a block of four go any lower than a single either. "
Now we can apply boost to that, and it takes it better spread over 4 drivers instead of 1.
Anway, 150hz should be fine to make 2 boxes.
Flat to 150hz sitting on a floor, I'm thinking 24" x 24" (I'm guessing) and 1/2 octave lower than mouth for length (1/4 wavelength of 100hz), so 2.8' deep from mouth to cone.
You ok with that ?
There is something about a shorter horn path length due to a larger throat, but I'm not sure. I havn't seen papers or any comparisons, just what people have said.
I just think of an altec a5 or 7 not horn loading below 200hz very much.
Norman
If you seal off the back of an Altec A7 or JBL 4560 (only like 18" deep and four square foot mouth) size front horn and place on a floor it will be strong down to 120 -150 cycles and usable 120 to 1.2K (or higher) loaded with a good horn driver like Electro Voice EVM15L
http://kalkan0.free.fr/JBL%204560%20PLAN.jpg
http://kalkan0.free.fr/JBL%204560%20PLAN.jpg
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hi POOH - -wonder why 15L beats the 2220H for extension? - here's 15L's 20vrms distortion in the little (13.5" deep by 20.5" wide by 27" tall) 115BK K-coupler - its a good non-horn solution imo and usable from ~70-1K2 or so http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/8564/115bk20vrmswjs9.jpg
4560 horn cab...........
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - The high-pass crossovers for upperbass.
"The 4560 would give you with a correct driver ~120Hz but it will be only 200Hz of horn loading and the rest below will run as a direct radiator. If you put in this type of enclose a driver with lover resonant frequency you get even lower response from it but it has no relation to horn loading. Most of the popular Altec horns are even shallower then the 4560. For instance audio people stick into the Altec 5-9 the 515B with Fs hear 20Hz and they happy to get “bass” out of this speakers. In reality the horn loading in there do not go lower then 200-250Hz and the rest is juts sound of mass-centric direct radiator driver boosted with a port. "
and
"5.11 shows that trying to cheat the length can really raise the Fc of the horn, even with the mouth area kept constant. Fig.5.11D scaled up is what some of the old theater bass horns resembled (think Altec A7, JBL 4560)."
That pic is from Olsen.
So, I wouldn't cheat the length, but it's your creation, not mine.
Norman
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - The high-pass crossovers for upperbass.
"The 4560 would give you with a correct driver ~120Hz but it will be only 200Hz of horn loading and the rest below will run as a direct radiator. If you put in this type of enclose a driver with lover resonant frequency you get even lower response from it but it has no relation to horn loading. Most of the popular Altec horns are even shallower then the 4560. For instance audio people stick into the Altec 5-9 the 515B with Fs hear 20Hz and they happy to get “bass” out of this speakers. In reality the horn loading in there do not go lower then 200-250Hz and the rest is juts sound of mass-centric direct radiator driver boosted with a port. "
and
"5.11 shows that trying to cheat the length can really raise the Fc of the horn, even with the mouth area kept constant. Fig.5.11D scaled up is what some of the old theater bass horns resembled (think Altec A7, JBL 4560)."
That pic is from Olsen.
So, I wouldn't cheat the length, but it's your creation, not mine.
Norman
When you seal the back of a 4560 size horn , put an EVM15L in it, place it on the floor it will have usable response from 120 to 1.2K. That's what happens regardless of Olson or "Romy."
I have 4 foot long horns that don't have that bandwith so length doesn't always determine what happens in reality.
Fred - my experiance with the 22020 JBL in 816 horns tells me the EVM15L has a wider range. I never compared the two in the same horn.
I have 4 foot long horns that don't have that bandwith so length doesn't always determine what happens in reality.
Fred - my experiance with the 22020 JBL in 816 horns tells me the EVM15L has a wider range. I never compared the two in the same horn.
From what i understand, you need a 75 Fc horn to get a good usable horn for the 150 -1.500 Hz range, same frequency cutoff x 2 apllies here. One of the reasons i am trying to get +- 50 - 500 Hz out of a folded W bin. Solve one problem, get another....
2220H (something like a paper dustcap D130) did ok and at the time was recommended by Bruce - this might be my only graph - the horn had a 20x20 mouth, 8x10 throat, 20 inch path, and nominally, 100Hz hypex expansion.
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/479/be100k43wjpg4sh1.jpg
Is there a reasonable drop in substitute today for 15L? - i have SP15A but don't know if they can be reconed into a 15L plus reconing/shipping can be pretty expensive.
12pe32 is a nice little horn driver.
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/479/be100k43wjpg4sh1.jpg
Is there a reasonable drop in substitute today for 15L? - i have SP15A but don't know if they can be reconed into a 15L plus reconing/shipping can be pretty expensive.
12pe32 is a nice little horn driver.
I suppose its fine to have a 200hz horn if you want a 150hz xo roll off
remember it should be 6db down at xo point, if using LR crossover
a simple calculation will tell you how big the difference really is
I would be more worried about upper response
remember it should be 6db down at xo point, if using LR crossover
a simple calculation will tell you how big the difference really is
I would be more worried about upper response
A horn needs to be built (to perform correctly) for the room placement including wall/floor material, distance from wall and floor, driver, expansion rate, rate profile, back chamber and of course if it will fit through the door. It also should be determined in advance the operating range, SPL capabilities, and what other horns are going to be used with it. It's not really all that complicated once the plan is realized. In my example I show where a small short horn with a 15" driver will cover the range stated. I don't know of what text book or web page that will show this all I can do is say the text book formula's and other peoples conjecture isn't always the truth in practice.
re: RCA-Fan's little folded 70Hz hypex - here's a graph with a JBL D120 (lower trace was a Fostex blh) it might be cool with a 12pe32 for some purposes - what is the actual sensitivity of the little T18? what driver is used?
here's one - looks like the builder made it wider than spec - that might have helped with some drivers
http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1185028&p=36108661&viewfull=1#post36108661
here's one - looks like the builder made it wider than spec - that might have helped with some drivers
http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1185028&p=36108661&viewfull=1#post36108661
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The EV 15L (for Lead guitar) curvalinear ribbed cone allows for very extended HF response, but the upper end is not very clean, and LF cause a fair amount of distortion.
I was way happier using the EV 15B in horn loaded applications.
That said, for low mid to 1200 Hz the EV 10M had preferable top end, and when I used it in the same cabinet I had been using 12L in it had more LF, lacked the 400 Hz midrange peak, and had better upper extension.
Considering that most old EV may have been thrashed to the point the cones are getting mushy, I'd be inclined to go with the Eminence drivers with similar specs for much less money.
Art
I have experienced this with several other cheap 'semi pro' woofers
even with adequate Xmax, bass makes them distort 😱 (bass guitar😛)
not sure what causes it, but suspect a sloppy magnet system
I have 15B in two of these - sounds pretty good with a Transylvania Power Co. K-tube and DE25 - the long Faeber-type K-tube seems to have no real advantages other than to poke though a horn http://imageshack.us/a/img189/2654/kklongtubeup.jpg
15L looked pretty clean to me in the Acoustic Control little Karlson box at 20vrms - K's are generally cleaner than small horn (other than the distributed slit port which looks bad under sine conditions)
on the cheap, could a Delta 10 make a horn driver? - its got a rather nasty peak before HF rolloff but is kicky in a K10. for little Karlsons, I'm looking at some of the B&C 10"
although qts is moderate, a Commonwealth 12 might make a decent horn driver (?) - I've run one in a K12 Karlson. btw - for size and articulation, I prefer K's over horns. YMMV
15L looked pretty clean to me in the Acoustic Control little Karlson box at 20vrms - K's are generally cleaner than small horn (other than the distributed slit port which looks bad under sine conditions)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
on the cheap, could a Delta 10 make a horn driver? - its got a rather nasty peak before HF rolloff but is kicky in a K10. for little Karlsons, I'm looking at some of the B&C 10"
although qts is moderate, a Commonwealth 12 might make a decent horn driver (?) - I've run one in a K12 Karlson. btw - for size and articulation, I prefer K's over horns. YMMV
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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