So, is the SPL of the total system flat? Or did you adjust it so that the two halves have the same total DB value measured by something like a sound level meter? Also curious how this applies to room equalization.
Last edited:
No the total system response is not flat. The high slopes down. But total energy is equal between the 2 halves.
So that has to be taken into consideration. I have not found a ruler flat response to sound good, so I don't do it that way. Equal energy around the mid point could still come from different response shapes. Not necessarily an easy formula.
So that has to be taken into consideration. I have not found a ruler flat response to sound good, so I don't do it that way. Equal energy around the mid point could still come from different response shapes. Not necessarily an easy formula.
Pano, do you hear anything being traded off now that you have your desired tone balance?
So this is possibly one reason for a BBC type dip?
It seems there are so many factors to be considered.
SPL, polar, CSD, in-room, etc.
Recently I read an old Sumiko report "OCOS - The formula". Since the concept seemed in agreement with my own experence, I went and changed the input impedance of the amp for an active speaker. After a few trails, it seemed I also got a BINGO. I continued to be amazed how every little detail counts. It seems like working from the drivers up the line of signal flow is really rewarding.
So this is possibly one reason for a BBC type dip?
It seems there are so many factors to be considered.
SPL, polar, CSD, in-room, etc.
Recently I read an old Sumiko report "OCOS - The formula". Since the concept seemed in agreement with my own experence, I went and changed the input impedance of the amp for an active speaker. After a few trails, it seemed I also got a BINGO. I continued to be amazed how every little detail counts. It seems like working from the drivers up the line of signal flow is really rewarding.
Last edited:
You claimed that you have probably more products in studios than Harman (not Harmon). Harman is the parent company of brands like BSS, dbx, JBL, Lexicon, Soundcraft, Studer, etc. I've seen a lot of their products in studios. You'll find more detailed information about Harman at HARMAN - Premium audio and entertainment for automotive, home, and professional. Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, microphones, home theater and personal audio.
Harmon would be a White Van product.
[I never saw any of those in a professional studio.... 😉 ]
[I never saw any of those in a professional studio.... 😉 ]
Yes, some detail perhaps. It can sound a bit thick on some tracks. But I'm not running the tweeters at the moment. If I cut them in up high (8K) they will add the classic "air" and that should wipe away the dullness. It only needs a touch of tweeter, though. Bringing up the horns does add some detail, but will too often sound harsh, so that's not the solution.
Far from perfect, but I'm so glad to find the right tonal balance. It's a big deal.
That is an interesting test Pano! Can you describe in more detail how did that test? I'm using ARTA and HolmImpulse.
I've been following this thread for a while and I've found it informative even with much of the bickering.
So Sumaudioguy claimed from the start that measuring and designing around phase was a vital ingredient. After months of more general claims about phase, I find it interesting that he finally made a very specific claim about a measurable phenomenon. It turns out nobody can even measure his claimed phenomenon.
Sumaudioguy's reaction was to blame everyone else's measurement approach. That would be fine if he could pinpoint why these other approaches were lacking and why his approach was different. Instead he simply declines to explain and slinks away. For a person who seems to have worked in the industry (I'm a DIYer and consider myself a relative newb), I'm surprised he refuses to attempt to back his assertion.
My only conclusion is that his experience, while vast is better measured in quantity than quality or that he has a few screws loose.
I also find it interesting that he uses Iasys. From my research and limited experience it is a tool typically used for quick and dirty sound reinforcement setup. Its primary claim to fame is that it doesn't require any expertise to use. It analyzes the data for you. I find it interesting that Audiocontrol doesn't publish white papers explaining exactly what their "fuzzy logic" routines are to come to these conclusions. I would assume Sumaudioguy could explain this to us. I think he owes it to the discussion.
So Sumaudioguy claimed from the start that measuring and designing around phase was a vital ingredient. After months of more general claims about phase, I find it interesting that he finally made a very specific claim about a measurable phenomenon. It turns out nobody can even measure his claimed phenomenon.
Sumaudioguy's reaction was to blame everyone else's measurement approach. That would be fine if he could pinpoint why these other approaches were lacking and why his approach was different. Instead he simply declines to explain and slinks away. For a person who seems to have worked in the industry (I'm a DIYer and consider myself a relative newb), I'm surprised he refuses to attempt to back his assertion.
My only conclusion is that his experience, while vast is better measured in quantity than quality or that he has a few screws loose.
I also find it interesting that he uses Iasys. From my research and limited experience it is a tool typically used for quick and dirty sound reinforcement setup. Its primary claim to fame is that it doesn't require any expertise to use. It analyzes the data for you. I find it interesting that Audiocontrol doesn't publish white papers explaining exactly what their "fuzzy logic" routines are to come to these conclusions. I would assume Sumaudioguy could explain this to us. I think he owes it to the discussion.
I'm sorry. I just like to try to take in all sides to a debate even as I become skeptical of a certain view. I was becoming skeptical of him, but decided to give him the benefit of the doubt that he might be legit. I certainly wasn't in a position to refute him myself. I guess he has done that on his own.
I was just joking 😀
Im all for him trying to prove his opinion, he has never done it and I doubt he actually can.
Honestly, Im pretty sure most of what he posted was legit in his mind. Of course when someone starts to diss other professionals openly in the same field you know something isnt exactly right.
Its just not on this topic that I found his opinion to be interesting but extremely stubborn, like there is no room differing design theories.
There are two other threads where he posted "against the grain" opinion. He talked about 16 ohm drivers being superior to 8 ohm drivers and he talked about using a thick felt ring between the horn and the CD.
Like you Im definitely not the expert and I want to learn as much as possible.
Im all for him trying to prove his opinion, he has never done it and I doubt he actually can.
Honestly, Im pretty sure most of what he posted was legit in his mind. Of course when someone starts to diss other professionals openly in the same field you know something isnt exactly right.
Its just not on this topic that I found his opinion to be interesting but extremely stubborn, like there is no room differing design theories.
There are two other threads where he posted "against the grain" opinion. He talked about 16 ohm drivers being superior to 8 ohm drivers and he talked about using a thick felt ring between the horn and the CD.
Like you Im definitely not the expert and I want to learn as much as possible.
I think SUM had mentioned some good points. I don't think he owes anybody convincing explanation. As a matter of fact, I have asked for specific data in many discussions with explanation why it's important, never got the necessary data. This means whenever we read a paper, we just have to be aware of such unkowns, and move on with what we wish to accomplish.
I wasn't hard. Once I had the crossover more or less where I wanted it, I just ran pink noise. Looking at the SPL on a meter the top and bottom 1/2 were adjusted to give me the same SPL. It worked. No weighting for the SPL meter.
But remember! My crossover is right at 635Hz, so the spectrum is cut in half on my system. With other crossover points it won't be so easy. And I did add 2dB to the bass by ear after that. However I ended up taking it back to +1dB or 0dB after extended listening.
I could post a pink noise file that has been filtered in 1/2 at 635Hz, if you like. That may give you some idea of what's going on in your system.
I can't speak directly to those other situations, but in this situation, he offered that all drivers of a certain ilk exhibit a specific phase trait when measured. He was rather confident it was both measurable and audible. A few people attempted to measure this and it didn't appear.
I don't think he owes me anything. I don't even know his name and he doesn't know mine. I think he owes it to himself. He put much effort into making what you consider to be good points (I'm agnostic only because of giving him the benefit of the doubt...there is refuting evidence already). Yet his only response is that nobody else knows how to measure this. That doesn't add up. If he cares that people hear his points he should do himself a favor and back them up.
And I'm truly interested. I'm not looking for a fight. I simply find his actions intriguing.
There were a few points I thought was good was because I understood what he was talking about. Regarding that phase issue, I did not totally understand so I didn't follow.
Using ARTA's spectrum analyzer mode, I did a pink noise measurement and displayed the results in 1/3rd octave bands. At that point what we would be looking for is the area under the curve (or bands) of all the bands before 635 Hz is equal to the area after 635 hz. Right? I guess I'm trying to understand what we are measuring here.
Yes, that file would be helpful. So, I play one half through the whole system and measure it using a meter (ARTA has one) and then measure the other half and compare the SPLs. Is that correct?
Thanks for your help.
Yes, that file would be helpful. So, I play one half through the whole system and measure it using a meter (ARTA has one) and then measure the other half and compare the SPLs. Is that correct?
Thanks for your help.
That is correct. You are not looking at the chart, just the overall SPL of each half.
Tones to follow.
Tones to follow.
Here are the pink noise files. There are two, 1 in each zip file, along with a text file.
These are both uncorrelated stereo pink noise filtered at 635Hz, 24dB/Octave
44.1KHz - 16bit. 30 seconds including a 2 second fade in.
Average level is -16dB RMS below full scale.*
The high pass file should sound louder than the low pass version because it contains more energy in the sensitive regions of human hearing.
This file can be used to help set system tonal balance. As both files contain the same energy, they should register at the same SPL (no weighting).
NOTE: The original wave high pass wave file is -16dB. Compressing it to MP3 caused a loss of 0.25dB. This did not happen with the corresponding low passed file, so please take this into account. High Pass is -16.25dB RMS.
Please remember! If your frequency response is junk, this won't fix it. It's just a measurement of how much energy is in each 1/2. Kind of a 2 band EQ.
These are both uncorrelated stereo pink noise filtered at 635Hz, 24dB/Octave
44.1KHz - 16bit. 30 seconds including a 2 second fade in.
Average level is -16dB RMS below full scale.*
The high pass file should sound louder than the low pass version because it contains more energy in the sensitive regions of human hearing.
This file can be used to help set system tonal balance. As both files contain the same energy, they should register at the same SPL (no weighting).
NOTE: The original wave high pass wave file is -16dB. Compressing it to MP3 caused a loss of 0.25dB. This did not happen with the corresponding low passed file, so please take this into account. High Pass is -16.25dB RMS.
Please remember! If your frequency response is junk, this won't fix it. It's just a measurement of how much energy is in each 1/2. Kind of a 2 band EQ.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! Will try this at home tonight and report back. Should be a fairly simple test.
The current response is slightly tilted up towards the bass. Sounds right to me in the room. Let's see what this tells us.
The current response is slightly tilted up towards the bass. Sounds right to me in the room. Let's see what this tells us.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.