As far as I'm concerned this is BS. Those are rms ratings, and if the amplifier in question is given an undistorted 240 volt ac line it will exceed its ratings across the audio band.
The end 
I suggest the OP buy a Krell and enjoy super power along with a generous amount of IMD, forcing him to turn the volume down anyways.
Also: If this german guy tested these specific amps 7 years ago, why did the OP even buy them if the results were so poor? Looks like the jokes on him.
Put it up for sale, get what you really want, since that’s what you’ve been implying all along.
Pass has, at almost any given moment, amps on the market that are considered the best, or among the very best, in the world.
Needless to say, they don’t have to trick customers with false power ratings.
I suggest the OP buy a Krell and enjoy super power along with a generous amount of IMD, forcing him to turn the volume down anyways.Also: If this german guy tested these specific amps 7 years ago, why did the OP even buy them if the results were so poor? Looks like the jokes on him.
Put it up for sale, get what you really want, since that’s what you’ve been implying all along.
Pass has, at almost any given moment, amps on the market that are considered the best, or among the very best, in the world.
Needless to say, they don’t have to trick customers with false power ratings.
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You should read instead of judging.The end
Also: If this german guy tested these specific amps 7 years ago, why did the OP even buy them if the results were so poor? Looks like the jokes on him.
Put it up for sale, get what you really want, since that’s what you’ve been implying all along.
Pass has, at almost any given moment, amps on the market that are considered the best, or among the very best, in the world.
Needless to say, they don’t have to trick customers with false power ratings.
As stated I got these labreports (2 months approx,) after I bought these amplifiers. I first had X600's and now there was a chance for me to acquire their successors the 600.5's. I also stated that even if these labreports are correct I still would prefer to keep these amplifiers because even with my low impedence low efficiency Infinity's, the output is more then enough.
If had a pletoria of Thresholds (S/1000 series II, SA/1 optical bias, S/300 and S/500's and all my amplification I have apart from an aold Conrad Johnson Premier One b, is from Threshold in my second setup and from Pass Labs in my primary setup. So do not lecture me about the quality of Pass products in the past and nowadays.
I did not imply anything at all, that's in your head. I did not mention Krell or another manufacturer like Mark Levinson other than to say that I find those brands at the repairfacility more often than Threshold or Pass Labs so there's no reason to be so defensive.
I just wondered why the specified values especially in the 4 Ohm region are so far of the measured ratings which were made by an engineer that repairs highend audio for a living for more then 20 years. Of course he cab be wrong but the values that were given by Pass Labs regarding the powerratings are not clear regarding the circumstances:
Wayne Colburn says they were made through a 1 KHz sweep and not to be taken as continuous values and now Nelson Pass says these are RMS ratings across the full audio band and with a proper AC of 240 Volts they will even exceed the Pass Labs specified ratings.
So what is it? Or can't I ask these questions without starting a panic and having a Krell in mind supposedly?
Haha, that's a clear statement from the man himself. So I see this as an addendum to the PL specified ratings and not in accordance with this statement from Wayne Colburn:
"Due to the power levels if I remember correctly the 600 and 1000 were not certified for consumer use but commercial use in industrial applications.
We spec it as measured during a sweep at 1KHz it was not a sustained sort of measurement."
Why is it all ******** (BS) to you if I may ask?
That is not my opinion, if at all relevant. I think it is both good and in fact pretty brave of you to pursue this. Kudos!
Saying «the end», means I have faith in Nelson and when he says it is good, it most often is 🙂
As far as I know, there is no universally accepted method of testing the factual power output of amplifiers. At least not one accepted and followed by all. For example, my old KAV 300iL rated at 200 watts into 8 ohms, was really powerful. For a few seconds…
Saying «the end», means I have faith in Nelson and when he says it is good, it most often is 🙂
As far as I know, there is no universally accepted method of testing the factual power output of amplifiers. At least not one accepted and followed by all. For example, my old KAV 300iL rated at 200 watts into 8 ohms, was really powerful. For a few seconds…
Much appreciated your response. Well NP is probably the best in this industry especially for me that he always helps you when you have a question about Pass Lab products or former products like Threshold. That's a kind of customer service that's unique. Jeff Rowland is very kind also in this respect.
So let's wait what the engineer has to say about his specs and then lets call it the day.
It's simple enough to test. You measure the AC line without the amplifier, and then you measure
it again with the amp at full power. Keeping in mind that this is best done by observing the peak
AC line voltage since the power supply draws off the peak, so you start with 240*1.41 = 338V for
unloaded peak. The peak figure you get with the amp at full power will tell the tale.
it again with the amp at full power. Keeping in mind that this is best done by observing the peak
AC line voltage since the power supply draws off the peak, so you start with 240*1.41 = 338V for
unloaded peak. The peak figure you get with the amp at full power will tell the tale.
How stable your AC line is you mean?
And when you have a big Variac would that help?
you're not reading replies at all, at least not ones giving you proper meat
since you're having Real McKay in front of you, all you need is to open the lid, look inside, measure rails and use common sense
now, if that is not enough, what sort of answer you expect, to fulfill your sense of curiosity?
since you're having Real McKay in front of you, all you need is to open the lid, look inside, measure rails and use common sense
now, if that is not enough, what sort of answer you expect, to fulfill your sense of curiosity?
Not so much stability as low impedance. If the amp doesn't meet power spec then you look
to see how much the line is dropping vs unloaded. If the peak drops 10%, then you expect
something like 20% off maximum output power from the amp, which is approximately the
case here for the 8 ohm figure. 10% off a 338V peak is 304V. The drop in your example
is probably worse than that, as there is some margin built into the amplifier's supply.
A Variac is not required. I use a 3 KVA Powerstat from Superior Electric, but a stiff AC line
source can give you some good estimates.
Does it really matter? Probably not, as there is enough capacitance in the supply to deliver
on musical peaks before the rails fall.
Me? I listen at 1 watt levels, which is why my ears still work at 71...
to see how much the line is dropping vs unloaded. If the peak drops 10%, then you expect
something like 20% off maximum output power from the amp, which is approximately the
case here for the 8 ohm figure. 10% off a 338V peak is 304V. The drop in your example
is probably worse than that, as there is some margin built into the amplifier's supply.
A Variac is not required. I use a 3 KVA Powerstat from Superior Electric, but a stiff AC line
source can give you some good estimates.
Does it really matter? Probably not, as there is enough capacitance in the supply to deliver
on musical peaks before the rails fall.
Me? I listen at 1 watt levels, which is why my ears still work at 71...
The rails should be 65V, which is 16 volts more than max output for 1200 watt peak @ 8 ohms.
yup, damn big honkin secondaries of 47Vac each
as far I'm informed, several of them were thrown at Greedy Boyz, one of earlier BAF
and catch was - they're so heavy that in the end no one was willing to take them, so Vladimir did took them home, simply to not leave leftovers in BAF premises
as far I'm informed, several of them were thrown at Greedy Boyz, one of earlier BAF
and catch was - they're so heavy that in the end no one was willing to take them, so Vladimir did took them home, simply to not leave leftovers in BAF premises
Can you than also explain why there is a CE sticker, but lack of compliance in EN61000-3-2?
I'm reading them all but maybe I have a hard time understanding them properly. Yes I know how to measure the rails but apart from a 28A Superior Electric 1256DU Powerstat, five 60 Watts 3,7 Ohm powerresistors and a Fluke 27, I have no system to measure those huge wattage's as (german) Audio magazines have and professional repairfacilities. So tell me what to do Zen Mod.
To the OP -
My impression is that you want to understand how/why certain measurements are chosen. However, some of you tone, IMO, suggests a level of animosity. I can't tell if that's from frustration due to your (maybe) lack of understanding or not. Heck, you've purchased some pretty fabulous amps and seem to love them. It's fun to understand how they're rated and if they'll 'really' put out that amount of power in a meaningful way. Bragging rights for amplifiers like that may be half the fun. I can't imagine a real use case for all that power, but I'm not that creative.
Either way, perhaps saying things like... I'm still not sure I understand why you... vs. why didn't you ... .would work a bit better.
From what little I've read, I'd still very much like to see your engineer's full report, and I'm still not sure why you haven't posted it. From my POV, saying, let me check on 'topic X' with them is not a great look. Either post the full report for review or say you won't. Note, we could just as easily ask pointed questions about the engineer's report. You post that we shouldn't think abut sagging AC... why not?
You're asking fairly pointed and bordering on accusatory questions re: PL, but you haven't posted the report from which you back your premise for contention. However, with Wayne's and Nelson's posts, I now fully understand the generalities around PL's specs., and I can make some informed guesses re: why the engineer's report and PL's measurements differ.
It's also important to note that just saying "RMS" does mean a sustained measurement for a short period of time. Unless you site a particular standard / test process, equating RMS with a sustained measurement is not very meaningful (to me).
Ask thoughtful questions. You'll likely get polite answers. Once you understand the answers, then I think you'll have a more informed opinion re: how the amplifiers were tested and advertised. You don't have to agree with anything, but at this point, I think you're laking understanding.
my
Cheers!
A quick search indicates that IEC 61000-3-2 applies to equipment with a rated current up to 16 A – for equipment above 16 A see IEC 61000-3-12. I'm less familiar with these standards, but would appreciate your thoughts re: relevance. In other words ... I dunno, but maybe that helps, maybe not.
My impression is that you want to understand how/why certain measurements are chosen. However, some of you tone, IMO, suggests a level of animosity. I can't tell if that's from frustration due to your (maybe) lack of understanding or not. Heck, you've purchased some pretty fabulous amps and seem to love them. It's fun to understand how they're rated and if they'll 'really' put out that amount of power in a meaningful way. Bragging rights for amplifiers like that may be half the fun. I can't imagine a real use case for all that power, but I'm not that creative.
Either way, perhaps saying things like... I'm still not sure I understand why you... vs. why didn't you ... .would work a bit better.
From what little I've read, I'd still very much like to see your engineer's full report, and I'm still not sure why you haven't posted it. From my POV, saying, let me check on 'topic X' with them is not a great look. Either post the full report for review or say you won't. Note, we could just as easily ask pointed questions about the engineer's report. You post that we shouldn't think abut sagging AC... why not?
You're asking fairly pointed and bordering on accusatory questions re: PL, but you haven't posted the report from which you back your premise for contention. However, with Wayne's and Nelson's posts, I now fully understand the generalities around PL's specs., and I can make some informed guesses re: why the engineer's report and PL's measurements differ.
It's also important to note that just saying "RMS" does mean a sustained measurement for a short period of time. Unless you site a particular standard / test process, equating RMS with a sustained measurement is not very meaningful (to me).
Ask thoughtful questions. You'll likely get polite answers. Once you understand the answers, then I think you'll have a more informed opinion re: how the amplifiers were tested and advertised. You don't have to agree with anything, but at this point, I think you're laking understanding.
my
Cheers!
A quick search indicates that IEC 61000-3-2 applies to equipment with a rated current up to 16 A – for equipment above 16 A see IEC 61000-3-12. I'm less familiar with these standards, but would appreciate your thoughts re: relevance. In other words ... I dunno, but maybe that helps, maybe not.
Above 16A in EU is a whole different think. 16A by itself is 3680W max (230*16)
I am aware of the IEC 61000-3-12, although if I am not mistake that would be a three phase system.
The IEC connector on the back in to compliant with 61000-3-12 as well.
So again I still haven't seen the answer, why there is a CE but no compliance with 61000-3-2.
Because this device will be under 61000-3-2, not 61000-3-12
1.chill
2. learn tech. side of things
3. work on your social skills
or :
1. just chill ; crank the amps, shut off anything connected to WWW
I've this from Superior Electric,
Thanks for your answer I will relay this to the engineer that made the measurements.
And I agree a 20% drop in the AC value will explain the 500 Watts reading at 8 Ohms. So something is wrong with the 4 Ohm reading and I hope the engineer can shed some light on it.
Does it matter? Well does anything matter when:
"Later, the sun will cool to a white dwarf, and after that the universe will
experience heat death." ;-)
1 Watt on a horn loudspeaket I reckon.
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