6h5c said:
What do you think of 2SK389? Unless I've got my numbers mixed up, it's a dual.
Better to stick to tried-and-trusted 2SK170?
Got it! So basically it's up to me to find out if there's any effect. I know all about audio impatience! I have learned it the hard way (my speakers took 200hrs to break in😡 ) I think you short-changed yourself though. After the 100hr mark the change is pretty radical from the beginnings which were a bit relentless and in-your-face. They get progressively sweeter and more relaxed (which is sort of a definition of musical). Having said this, I'm really enjoying opamp rolling and look forward to the next "best"! Could do without the long burn-in times though, but that goes with the territory.
shepperd said:
Hi Shepperd,
You are talking about this op-amp break-in an awful lot! I'm prepared to believe it's an audible effect and I have myself been accused of hearing things that aren't there, but... I wonder if you're getting a little carried away here my friend! I seriously don't think they break in *that* much. I'm still using 4 x LM4562 and they STILL sound a bit sterile. They always will, I'm sure of it. Just as OPA627 and OPA2134 will still sound a bit veiled, and LM6172 will sound rough. That said...
Do you like them now?
I'm thinking of changing one 4562 in my pre to 627 and seeing if I reach a happy medium between this "accurate/revealing" sound and the musical lush sound of 627. Might pop a couple in now actually!
Simon /hopes the flashing was the angry bus driver and not a camera
Simon, of all places to find a sceptic! albiet a polite one...600+pages of modding 10-15 year old mid-range cdp's and you ask me this! My friend I'll give you a very honest answer: I don't have the tiniest bit of expertize that you and 99% of the others have on this thread or on this forum but I do have 35 years of listening to all kinds of audio gear. I listen very intensely, very carefully, taking in all the factors such as wish-fulfillment, expectancy etc. I listen at different times of the day and night on all kinds of music. I hear the differences in caps, in cables and in resistors (I had some hand built ladder-type passives where you could switch between four types). So yes I hear very well when something is different and when it is changing character. My speakers were ghastly fresh out of the crate. They are marvelous now. Ok so in the beginning these opamps were very impressive but a bit over the top. They have changed quite dramatically in the last 24hours and are anything but sterile. They tromp all over the 2134 in terms of definition, detail, air and the 627's sound sluggish and too laid-back in comparison. Are they the last word? I really hope not because this is a lot of fun; opamp rolling instead of tube rolling! Sorry to be pompous but since I have the technical expertise of a Three year old, I have to rely on very subjective judgements. If you haven't gotten past the 100 hour mark, give it a chance! Do I like it? YES! but my system is changing
fairly often (in increments) so the last word will not be mine by any means. If you were writing that post while driving, it's no wonder the bus driver was angry and the camera flashed!
fairly often (in increments) so the last word will not be mine by any means. If you were writing that post while driving, it's no wonder the bus driver was angry and the camera flashed!
I trust you are hearing changes, I was only hinting that just maybe you were overstating them a little. Perhaps not. I do not have a vast experience, I'm only 25 years old! I too rely on reading others' advice and using their technical knowledge, and on subjective listening sessions, often over many weeks.
I have listened to the 4562s for over 100hrs, easily. There may have been some change to a more favourable sound but I have not found it to be massive.
As for driving, I was dropping a couple of mates off at a club. I used a bus stop to park and then pulled out in front of a bus, into the permenant bus lane. He wasn't happy.
I have listened to the 4562s for over 100hrs, easily. There may have been some change to a more favourable sound but I have not found it to be massive.
As for driving, I was dropping a couple of mates off at a club. I used a bus stop to park and then pulled out in front of a bus, into the permenant bus lane. He wasn't happy.
Ok, so now who is the noob? I just plugged a Brown Dog loaded with two OPA627bp into a socket in my preamp, and sound only came out of the left channel. Then I decided to do something ultra-stupid - I turned the whole thing around. Magic smoke hangs heavy in my room now. The preamp still works though lol. Might try a different one now, OP249 perhaps?? lol 
I'll get off my high horse! it was uncomfortable anyway
I didn't say the change was massive, but it was/is very appreciated. I guess like a lot of things in this fairly recent field (diying on this level) a lot depends on the equipment surrounding what ever we are talking about. My Marantz seems very sensitive to these upgrades and very revealing about them. It's only about 50% there compared to others (like Brent's "ultimate"). I think I have good old synergy on my side. Since I don't have the knowledge or ability to do quick, studied swaps and changes (following all the ideas and suggestions spoken of here) I can only do one at a time, which gives me a certain advantage. I really get to hear what happened. It's also very frustrating knowing that I'm missing most of what you lot are talking about!
Well at least I don't get the boot for total ignorance! (you should have seen me sweating and cursing changing the laser assembly!)
I didn't say the change was massive, but it was/is very appreciated. I guess like a lot of things in this fairly recent field (diying on this level) a lot depends on the equipment surrounding what ever we are talking about. My Marantz seems very sensitive to these upgrades and very revealing about them. It's only about 50% there compared to others (like Brent's "ultimate"). I think I have good old synergy on my side. Since I don't have the knowledge or ability to do quick, studied swaps and changes (following all the ideas and suggestions spoken of here) I can only do one at a time, which gives me a certain advantage. I really get to hear what happened. It's also very frustrating knowing that I'm missing most of what you lot are talking about!
Well at least I don't get the boot for total ignorance! (you should have seen me sweating and cursing changing the laser assembly!)
I do think system synergy is important. I think, for example, my combination of "sluggish" 627s in CD63 and my quite revealing and almost clinical speakers (at the time) was synergistic to some extent. My speakers are better now and I think this system is quite easy to hear some changes with.
Just put another OP249 in and this is not a great chip. Just worth trying as I had them. It sounds quite vague, distortion at the frequency extremes perhaps manifesting itself as a lack of clarity and detail. At least the midrange is less piping.
Quagmire might like this chip as it doesn't focus on the details, but the musical whole (making excuses for it??).
At this point I do wonder how many and what op-amps this Dixie Chicks album went through
Just put another OP249 in and this is not a great chip. Just worth trying as I had them. It sounds quite vague, distortion at the frequency extremes perhaps manifesting itself as a lack of clarity and detail. At least the midrange is less piping.
Quagmire might like this chip as it doesn't focus on the details, but the musical whole (making excuses for it??).
At this point I do wonder how many and what op-amps this Dixie Chicks album went through
Now LM6172 have gone back in, lol. Definately quite detailed but I don't think it's as clean as 4562.
edit: pulling me in to listen... why has nobody else tried this chip? Might be good in combination with something else 😉
edit2: now running LM6172 & OPA2134, this is rather good...playing the overbright 6172 with the "rolled off" 2134. Not sure yet though... still LM4562 in cd63.
edit3: not bad but can't resolve the finest nuances as clearly as 4562.
I don't think any op-amp is good enough. I need to go discrete.
edit: pulling me in to listen... why has nobody else tried this chip? Might be good in combination with something else 😉
edit2: now running LM6172 & OPA2134, this is rather good...playing the overbright 6172 with the "rolled off" 2134. Not sure yet though... still LM4562 in cd63.
edit3: not bad but can't resolve the finest nuances as clearly as 4562.
I don't think any op-amp is good enough. I need to go discrete.
Hi Guys,
Long time, no listening to my whinging 🙂
I could be in a position to get my hands on a CD67.
Looking at the manual for both the 67 and 63, it looks to my eyes that I could use the toroidal transformer from the 63KI and put it in the 67. There only seem to be minor differences in the voltage.
I like the fact that the 67 has multiple 5V regs and since I have had disastrous effects with changing the power supply, I like the thought of just replacing the regs and leave it at that.
Overall, is it a good idea to do this? Please let me know quick, as the CD ends soon in an auction.
Thanks,
Simon (Oz)
Long time, no listening to my whinging 🙂
I could be in a position to get my hands on a CD67.
Looking at the manual for both the 67 and 63, it looks to my eyes that I could use the toroidal transformer from the 63KI and put it in the 67. There only seem to be minor differences in the voltage.
I like the fact that the 67 has multiple 5V regs and since I have had disastrous effects with changing the power supply, I like the thought of just replacing the regs and leave it at that.
Overall, is it a good idea to do this? Please let me know quick, as the CD ends soon in an auction.
Thanks,
Simon (Oz)
Simon I hope I didn't jinx you! Did you put the 627's backwards?
I did that, got almost no signal, but nothing fried. Don't think they appreciated it though! You're probably right; the best opamp is none. WAY beyond my humble skills though. Last night I listened to a bunch or nice cd's and the 4562's sounded mighty good; very tactile, spacious, fast and MUSICAL! What do I know? Until the next better comes along I'm enjoying these. Do you also agree that by-passing these is probably a waste of time? (above posting of mine) Ps I KNOW I bought some double crown chips once but I can't remember where they went!!! Not in my old 63' which a neighbor has. I compared the two machines recently. Even before the 4562 change the my modded 67 made a total meal of the 63. I am super excited at the prospect of having my (even older) Sony sent to Brent for hot-rodding. I'll never get it back but at least I can hear it in the same system as mine (same amp, spkrs, wires) TOTALLY OFF TOPIC (so dunce me); I sold that Sony with a set of really ancient IC's, Straight Wire Maestro's. Boy are they good!
I did that, got almost no signal, but nothing fried. Don't think they appreciated it though! You're probably right; the best opamp is none. WAY beyond my humble skills though. Last night I listened to a bunch or nice cd's and the 4562's sounded mighty good; very tactile, spacious, fast and MUSICAL! What do I know? Until the next better comes along I'm enjoying these. Do you also agree that by-passing these is probably a waste of time? (above posting of mine) Ps I KNOW I bought some double crown chips once but I can't remember where they went!!! Not in my old 63' which a neighbor has. I compared the two machines recently. Even before the 4562 change the my modded 67 made a total meal of the 63. I am super excited at the prospect of having my (even older) Sony sent to Brent for hot-rodding. I'll never get it back but at least I can hear it in the same system as mine (same amp, spkrs, wires) TOTALLY OFF TOPIC (so dunce me); I sold that Sony with a set of really ancient IC's, Straight Wire Maestro's. Boy are they good!
SimontY said:
😀
You need to get rid of dual opamps. Try AD8610 (DAC) + AD8510 (filter) . Still works for me! Or OPA124, also very nice.
It's easy! Just pick some with the most yellow bars
.The green ones are the ones I have 'in stock' at the moment 😀.
Ray
Very nice as I was looking for this list yesterday night, found it page 2 but the old one.
Thanks Ray it's usefull!
I think I'll have a try for AD8599 in the CDP and LM4562 in preamp part of my integrated.
Thanks Ray it's usefull!
I think I'll have a try for AD8599 in the CDP and LM4562 in preamp part of my integrated.
AD826 rarely gets a mention. Single version is AD817.
It's fast, with a high slew rate and the quickest settling time of them all. PSRR is worse than many and it needs a cap across +V/-V to sound its best. I used the 1uF/100V stacked films I was talking about earlier.
It has a very detailed sound with very clean HF. The mids are very detailed and the image is very broad. Bass is deep and tight. Never gets confused.
It's a bit like a bi-polar version of the AD825 internally.
It lacks a bit of warmth and mid-bass punch compared to the AD825 but is cleaner in the highs.
You have to be careful where you use it, as it draws huge bias currents through its inputs. You can end up with enormous DC offsets in some circuits. You wouldn't use it in a headphone amp or you might cook your cans. I tried it in my old pre-amp once and the DC-coupled input meant you'd get a rumble as you turned the volume pot.
In the CD63/67 filter the bias currents are equalised (assuming reasonable matching of the resistors) but it's always worth checking. You can easily find an extra 20mV appears on the output.
It's one of the better ones.
But yes, they all do one thing better than each other and that's why I want to try the discrete stage. I think much of the negative effects of the op-amp that we hear are down to the huge amounts of feedback.
It's fast, with a high slew rate and the quickest settling time of them all. PSRR is worse than many and it needs a cap across +V/-V to sound its best. I used the 1uF/100V stacked films I was talking about earlier.
It has a very detailed sound with very clean HF. The mids are very detailed and the image is very broad. Bass is deep and tight. Never gets confused.
It's a bit like a bi-polar version of the AD825 internally.
It lacks a bit of warmth and mid-bass punch compared to the AD825 but is cleaner in the highs.
You have to be careful where you use it, as it draws huge bias currents through its inputs. You can end up with enormous DC offsets in some circuits. You wouldn't use it in a headphone amp or you might cook your cans. I tried it in my old pre-amp once and the DC-coupled input meant you'd get a rumble as you turned the volume pot.
In the CD63/67 filter the bias currents are equalised (assuming reasonable matching of the resistors) but it's always worth checking. You can easily find an extra 20mV appears on the output.
It's one of the better ones.
But yes, they all do one thing better than each other and that's why I want to try the discrete stage. I think much of the negative effects of the op-amp that we hear are down to the huge amounts of feedback.
May I ask you all a favor?
Make a kind of sheet about your system: picture and spec, level of price for it in a decent shop.
Maybe I can figure better what do want from your CDP.
Make a kind of sheet about your system: picture and spec, level of price for it in a decent shop.
Maybe I can figure better what do want from your CDP.
Glenn2 said:
don't know if this was answered or not but
2sk389 are matched(dual) 2sk170's
much better on input's😀
allan
6h5c said:You need to get rid of dual opamps. Try AD8610 (DAC) + AD8510 (filter) . Still works for me! Or OPA124, also very nice.
It's easy! Just pick some with the most yellow bars
The green ones are the ones I have 'in stock' at the moment 😀.
Ray
That's a really cool list Ray, but I can't see any obvious correlation between perceived sound quality and specs there! At least not at a glance. Sorry this is OT but... my preamp sounds nice with LM6172 followed by OPA2134. Two gain stages, although one might purely be a buffer at present. To my ears 2134 sounds a touch flat and boring and 6172 sounds eager at the top and bottom and these two chips balance themselves out well. It's very easy to hear some of the more difficult to decipher lryics, such as some Dire Straits ones that are often not so obvious. I think mixing op-amps can be a way to get the most out of them. At least I'll banish them from my cd63 soon 😉
edit: OP249 has, for the list, mediocre specs. And it sounds mediocre to me too. A winner for the objectivists there! And 2604 sounds poor and doesn't look good on paper either.