The battery ground tweak is another joke, I would suggest these people learn how signals travel firstly..... We manage low noise designs in the sane world of electronics why cant you in audio.....
I will look at the thread. But at the end of the day SQ, perceived or measured, is all I care about. I would have been happy to return the Jitterbug if it didn't help. So I'll keep a USB filter of some kind in my system. Best $50 ever spent. Want some more snake oil? The EVS Ground Enhancers work too!
BGT works by smoothing the ground as far as I can tell. Why is that a bad thing?
I had not heard of the 'battery ground tweak' so I googled it. It appears to be an ignorant 'development' from the 'groundside electrons' nonsense; take a daft idea and make it dafter. Actually, I'm not sure which is dafter: attaching a piece of wire to something, or attaching one side of a battery to something. The fact that people seriously claim that this 'works' just shows how gullible and ignorant (of electricity) some people are. The sad thing is that fans of this type of 'upgrade' will never understand how foolish it is, and why sensible people dismiss wild audio claims without evidence - indeed for this type of thing we are quite safe in dismissing it even in the unlikely situation that evidence was offered. True believers may now shout at me for being a closed-mind 'engineer', but the fact that the electric field is a conservative field is quite basic physics so anything which can only work with some other type of electric field (i.e. in some other universe) can be dismissed even when (but it never is) accompanied by evidence.
Ok, so what if it does genuinely change the sound? The most likely explanation is that the extra stray capacitance is injecting interference, and the resulting audio noise is misinterpreted as extra 'detail'. A battery (plus bypass cap!) will increase the stray capacitance - you could use a lump of any conductor, such as a potato or a box of damp earth.
Ok, so what if it does genuinely change the sound? The most likely explanation is that the extra stray capacitance is injecting interference, and the resulting audio noise is misinterpreted as extra 'detail'. A battery (plus bypass cap!) will increase the stray capacitance - you could use a lump of any conductor, such as a potato or a box of damp earth.
You might be correct about that worst case mechanism. But if that is what it does and nothing more, is that so bad? People spend small fortunes on amplifiers with a huge amount of even harmonic distortion to create "warmth" and that is accepted as normal and sensible.
And can you help me out with what you mean by "stray capacitance"? Are you just referring to the BGT or the ground enhancers, or both?
I have tried foobar plugins that add (relatively) HF noise and they seem to have a favorable effect, or at least an effect. Didn't really decide which sounded better.
And can you help me out with what you mean by "stray capacitance"? Are you just referring to the BGT or the ground enhancers, or both?
I have tried foobar plugins that add (relatively) HF noise and they seem to have a favorable effect, or at least an effect. Didn't really decide which sounded better.
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They are all pretty silly add ons designed for one purpose only to remove money, looked at the PGN , its allows you to use an external voltage, cant see anything about smoothing the ground plane. The EVS ground enhancers are another joke, they don't work or do anything apart from possibly act as antennas and inject rf into your system...
OK, getting back on topic. Don't give up Gino!
Gino asked if THD+N is the "king of the measurements"
Does IMD include peaks caused by THD? And does it go up with more noise? If so, it might unseat THD+N as the king!
Gino asked if THD+N is the "king of the measurements"
Does IMD include peaks caused by THD? And does it go up with more noise? If so, it might unseat THD+N as the king!
THD + N goes up with noise by definition. It is a practical impossibility to have HD without IM. USB isolators can be useful in a very small number of situations, assuming they're designed by actual engineers, but are generally mammary glands on a male bovine. The "audiophile" ones are pure snake oil. USB works for a few billion computers out there- audio data is data just like any other.
And the more unlikely the claim, the more insistent the claimant and the more certain that the claimant has no actual knowledge of the subject. 😀
This is pure gibberish.
And the more unlikely the claim, the more insistent the claimant and the more certain that the claimant has no actual knowledge of the subject. 😀
This is pure gibberish.
I would recommend the opposite, and give up with the silly esoteric ideas that don't work or are more likely to add problems such as extra noise.
Concentrate on good solid engineering practices that follow the rules of physics and you'll be better off.
Signals need a return path (there is no such thing as ground in electronics, there is a protective earth, but no ground, it is just a misused term for what is the main return plane that we also tend to use as a reference so it is usually around 0Vs give or take some ground bounce.
Signals are not little trains of electrons moving round a track they are electromagnetic waves that cause the electrons to jiggle and drift, the electrons actually move very very slowly when a signal is propagating down a track or wire, around 0.1mm a sec so it would take electrons 2+ hours to travel down a 1m cable and thus the signal if it relied on electrons.
Instead of all this messing about, measure the noise if there is any and add a filter, a ferrite usually does the job.
What worries me is all these DAC's so badly designed that a little noise down a USB cable buggers up the sound, sais a lot for their design or maybe its all perception based and they are OK......
Concentrate on good solid engineering practices that follow the rules of physics and you'll be better off.
Signals need a return path (there is no such thing as ground in electronics, there is a protective earth, but no ground, it is just a misused term for what is the main return plane that we also tend to use as a reference so it is usually around 0Vs give or take some ground bounce.
Signals are not little trains of electrons moving round a track they are electromagnetic waves that cause the electrons to jiggle and drift, the electrons actually move very very slowly when a signal is propagating down a track or wire, around 0.1mm a sec so it would take electrons 2+ hours to travel down a 1m cable and thus the signal if it relied on electrons.
Instead of all this messing about, measure the noise if there is any and add a filter, a ferrite usually does the job.
What worries me is all these DAC's so badly designed that a little noise down a USB cable buggers up the sound, sais a lot for their design or maybe its all perception based and they are OK......
Firstly though you have to accept that bits are bits and trying to get that fact across is hard enough, in ALL other fields of electronics bits are treated as bits except in audio land where some would like us to believe they are not bits, don't know what they want them to be and haven't really had any sensible explanation yet 🙂
So, show me a layout on how to do a ADUM isolator/power injector done correctly please.
Marce mate, when us older guys are saying that we are noting subjective differences, it is after rigorous/multiple times multiple (sighted) AB comparisons....please don't discount that we have had a lifetime of listening to/and for, fine differences, often very fine differences, and usually very, very fine differences.
Hell, I (and others) are noting differences of 'iPod' playback according to the particular USB cable used during the data (Flac and Wav) transfer to the 'iPod'...('iPod' = old Android phone used as a player device...ie all RF functions shut down).
Dan.
Low blow... You might have more "knowledge" but that shouldn't allow you to dismiss everything you think won't work (and haven't/wont try). I have nothing invested in mentioning various "snake oil" treatments and it would be much easier if they did nothing. I don't think I have been overly pushy about it, just trying to have a normal discussion
I am trying to move on with the thread here in a friendly way but I have to ask, why exactly is BGT smoothing the ground "gibberish"?
I am trying to move on with the thread here in a friendly way but I have to ask, why exactly is BGT smoothing the ground "gibberish"?
Yes, bits are bits, but they are also an analog signal traveling along a wire. Something or other about this analog signal seems to affect measurements even though the bits are A-OK. Hence the discussion of filters, USB power lifters.
So you like the emperors news clothes.... anecdotal hearsay does not count.....
They are NOT analogue signals, they are a digital signal square wave made up of a fundamental frequency and numerous harmonics, an analogue signal is a time varying signal and can be any value between max voltage and zero volts a digital signal is one of two states 0 or 1 please try and accept this fact then you can move on.... When we do signal integrity we are looking at the signals as digital signals not analogue signals, because a square wave is made up of numerous analogue harmonics we don,t treat it as an analogue signal, but as a digital signal we want the BITS to get through.
My evidence, which I stated before, is that ADuM Isolator increases THD of a "digital" signal. This is proof that, on my equipment, bad USB signal has a negative effect. Just the fact that it has an effect proves that there is some relationship there. Just because (according to you) I don't understand exactly why and how it is happening doesn't mean it isn't happening.
It is interesting that you don't give any credence at all to the idea that forum members; subjective tests have at least a bit of validity. If you were to tell me that X amp has tighter bass and bloomy mids and amp Y has a sibilant treble I wouldn't expect someone would say "you don't know what you are talking about".
It is interesting that you don't give any credence at all to the idea that forum members; subjective tests have at least a bit of validity. If you were to tell me that X amp has tighter bass and bloomy mids and amp Y has a sibilant treble I wouldn't expect someone would say "you don't know what you are talking about".
I have done.... go seek, I have mentioned the thread in question many times, the rest of this is basic EMC engineering/Layout... plenty of information out there or if you want my input for a commercial device contact my workplace and they will give you a quote for my services🙂
I'm afraid they are both. They are digital signals riding an analog medium, in this case a wire. If they were digital they would have no overshoot or ringing, no high frequency hash from whatever source, and infinite slew rate, but they do.
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