I understand the loop rule in circuits where there is a return path. But look at it like this:
A metal goes from M3+ to M2+ by gaining an electron. That electron is now in the ion and accounted for. What you are proposing means that 100% of current goes back to the reference electrode through the solution. But how do you account for the new electron in the metal? If 100% of current goes back, and the metal still gets an extra electron, you are creating electrons.
No you don't. You only understand the rule when you realise that there are no exceptions - except the trivial exception of electrostatics.vladimirb0b said:
A battery, whether charging or discharging, is a normal circuit element and so fully subject to Kirchoff's laws. You push electrons into one terminal and the same number of electrons comes out of the other terminal; the circuit insists on that. You need to start from that fact, and then work out whatever electrochemistry is consistent with that. Don't try to start with the chemistry, as chemistry is fully subject to the laws of physics. You don't have isolated electrodes in a solution; you have two electrodes in a circuit.
I now understand how the battery doesn't contradict Kirchoff.
People keep saying there has to be a loop but won't tell me what it is. Can you directly refute my reasoning, particularly the second of those quotes? I am trying as hard as I can to find a proper 100% loop that can still change the charge of an ion.
People keep saying there has to be a loop but won't tell me what it is. Can you directly refute my reasoning, particularly the second of those quotes? I am trying as hard as I can to find a proper 100% loop that can still change the charge of an ion.
There is always a return path, otherwise there is no current flow, just electrostatic waves if there is a potential difference between two points.
I'm not a chemist, much like I'm not an electrician.
But here goes.
Charge (or battery voltage) is an accumulation of opposite charges either side of a boundary. Those charges came from within the source (battery or capacitor) that was one half of the circuit. The charges initially moved to create the voltage/charge.
Connect an external circuit and the current will flow. It flows from the source and returns to the source. That flow and return is around the external circuit and the internal circuit. There's your loop/circuit.
But here goes.
Charge (or battery voltage) is an accumulation of opposite charges either side of a boundary. Those charges came from within the source (battery or capacitor) that was one half of the circuit. The charges initially moved to create the voltage/charge.
Connect an external circuit and the current will flow. It flows from the source and returns to the source. That flow and return is around the external circuit and the internal circuit. There's your loop/circuit.
To Quote Ralf Morrison, from "THE FIELDS OF ELECTRONICS"
Kirchoffs circuit laws...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff's_circuit_laws
Kirchoffs circuit laws...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff's_circuit_laws
I have a grasp now of the battery charge and discharge. What I am talking about is aqueous electrochemistry. Way off topic, I know, but might as well try again.
I have attached a picture of the setup in question as I understand it now. I mislabeled the ion charges but it makes no difference for the example. Please let me know where the loop is.
If there is no reaction at the right side electrode, charge conservation is not possible via the reasoning a few posts back about creating electrons
If you add a ground along with or instead of the right side electrode, the charge conservation problem still exists
I have attached a picture of the setup in question as I understand it now. I mislabeled the ion charges but it makes no difference for the example. Please let me know where the loop is.
If there is no reaction at the right side electrode, charge conservation is not possible via the reasoning a few posts back about creating electrons
If you add a ground along with or instead of the right side electrode, the charge conservation problem still exists
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Before trying again and dragging this even further off topic, get a basic freshman chem book, read carefully the chapters on electrochemistry, and work the problems.
OK, I can put it back on topic 
Vaguely remember someone posting about this but not going to read the whole thread.
I bought two of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002IWEDSS/
There should be enough room there to cut any wires that need to be cut.
Vaguely remember someone posting about this but not going to read the whole thread.I bought two of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002IWEDSS/
There should be enough room there to cut any wires that need to be cut.
Is it just me? I seem to have lost the plot/point of this thread... Though it is entertaining. Still wondering where Max's flash memory tangent was supposed to be leading us...
A long winding road similar to Dantes' epic adventure, where bit identical files sound different due to some reason, one is stored on HD compared to stored on SSD, my favourite was files ripped using a linear PSU sounded better than same files ripped using a SMPS. We have had many a happy discussion around the same theme.
USB Data cable -> USB Cable quality -> USB Noise affecting analog sound -> USB Filters -> Jitterbug is BS -> EVS and battery ground tweak -> battery chemistry fail -> electrochemistry fail
Am I missing anything?
Err... Common sense..?
Good comparison!I can see a loop too. Maybe we are both imagining it?
Would this be a good time to draw people's attention to so-called displacement current? In some senses what happens inside a battery is not that different from what happens between the plates of a capacitor. In both cases dogmatic naive people may claim there is no current, but in reality the definition of current has been extended beyond mere flow of charges.
We are getting into one of those arguments where someone asks a question but doesn't know enough to understand the right answer so rejects it in favour of the wrong answer. These often arise when people try to understand complex things (like battery insides) before they have fully grasped (and accepted) simple things (like circuits). This discussion about batteries is incidental to the main point about the foolishness of adding random bits of conductor to audio grounds; I guess that arises from an inability to grasp the nature of potential difference (if only we always called it that, instead of voltage, much of the confusion would disappear) and the purpose of a 'ground'.
Would this be a good time to draw people's attention to so-called displacement current? In some senses what happens inside a battery is not that different from what happens between the plates of a capacitor. In both cases dogmatic naive people may claim there is no current, but in reality the definition of current has been extended beyond mere flow of charges.
We are getting into one of those arguments where someone asks a question but doesn't know enough to understand the right answer so rejects it in favour of the wrong answer. These often arise when people try to understand complex things (like battery insides) before they have fully grasped (and accepted) simple things (like circuits). This discussion about batteries is incidental to the main point about the foolishness of adding random bits of conductor to audio grounds; I guess that arises from an inability to grasp the nature of potential difference (if only we always called it that, instead of voltage, much of the confusion would disappear) and the purpose of a 'ground'.
An audiophile could waste all their free time auditioning the countless hi-fi products that claim this or that.
A better plan would be to only look a products that measure well or pass blind tests.
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