The problem with OSB is resonance. Make sure to brace all panel's.
And look around for it at 5-6 bucks a sheet!
I assume you are using the data from the last pic you posted? 544.668 Lt one? If so take a look at this:
Ang:2 Pi
Eg 2 volt
S1 = 306
S2 = 387.68
CON 1=27.30
S3=3780.24
Con 2=260.2
S4 =3000
Con 3=360.30
That's 417.316 Liters with more usable bandwidth.
Anyway back to the question about the schematic.
In your last response chart pic the driver. Your driver fires freely into the throat. Where as the one I posted has wood covering a portion of the driver.
The schematic is 2D representing 3D space.
So imagine the black lines as a horn in a solid object. The red circle is the driver (of course) and we are looking at it as if it is sitting top down (IE magnet up) firing into a "hole". Since it is a TH horn the green represent the rear of the driver in correlation to the mouth. (distance from)
If you notice in my schematic the driver is "outside" the mouth.
I assumed this would represent an angle to which it should be positioned.
I can assume only Akabak can simulate that? But that is a question for someone other than myself at this point. I am just learning Akabak.
And look around for it at 5-6 bucks a sheet!
I assume you are using the data from the last pic you posted? 544.668 Lt one? If so take a look at this:
Ang:2 Pi
Eg 2 volt
S1 = 306
S2 = 387.68
CON 1=27.30
S3=3780.24
Con 2=260.2
S4 =3000
Con 3=360.30
That's 417.316 Liters with more usable bandwidth.
Anyway back to the question about the schematic.
In your last response chart pic the driver. Your driver fires freely into the throat. Where as the one I posted has wood covering a portion of the driver.
The schematic is 2D representing 3D space.
So imagine the black lines as a horn in a solid object. The red circle is the driver (of course) and we are looking at it as if it is sitting top down (IE magnet up) firing into a "hole". Since it is a TH horn the green represent the rear of the driver in correlation to the mouth. (distance from)
If you notice in my schematic the driver is "outside" the mouth.
I assumed this would represent an angle to which it should be positioned.
I can assume only Akabak can simulate that? But that is a question for someone other than myself at this point. I am just learning Akabak.
that s4 is smaller than s3 and gives a terrible response with a huge peak at<20hz, are you sure you pasted that right?
its also 1694litres.
also, regarding the slot infront of the driver, do you just calculate the surface area of the union between the driver (red circle) and the horn? and thats your slot size?
its also 1694litres.also, regarding the slot infront of the driver, do you just calculate the surface area of the union between the driver (red circle) and the horn? and thats your slot size?
your design, while a fair bit smaller, doesnt seem to have a huge advantage over mine in the high end, and seems to have a somewhat rising response between 100 and 200hz. this at the expense of a bit over a DB of low end sensitivity, the dip between 40 and 100hz remains just as large. also how can i make s1-s2 < the radius of my driver? likewise with s3-s4?
also, the slot is still not clear to me, it is the area of the union made between the walls of the horn and the driver in the "schematic" view right? i must calculate that area, and have a slot infront of the driver that mimics it?
renovations and whatnot around the house have been pushing this toward the abckburner, but i really wanna get it built this week.
also, the slot is still not clear to me, it is the area of the union made between the walls of the horn and the driver in the "schematic" view right? i must calculate that area, and have a slot infront of the driver that mimics it?
renovations and whatnot around the house have been pushing this toward the abckburner, but i really wanna get it built this week.
As long as I am understanding your usage of the word UNION
Then you are correct in your thinking. This needs to be precise as possible.
As far the design.
Just a quick thing to lower the physical size. Also those upper peaks will not be there in the built version. Least from what I have seen in the 3 I have built and what others have posted from their builds. Though mine were not at 100 Hz but rather 150-200.
Even though HR seems to do a good job
at modeling a TH it isn't perfect. It is said that the dip between 40-100 will even out also. My TH's were pretty dang flat in that area so? Somewhere i read Danley talking about modeling with the peaks.
Search you can find it.
Then you are correct in your thinking. This needs to be precise as possible.
As far the design.
Just a quick thing to lower the physical size. Also those upper peaks will not be there in the built version. Least from what I have seen in the 3 I have built and what others have posted from their builds. Though mine were not at 100 Hz but rather 150-200.
Even though HR seems to do a good job
at modeling a TH it isn't perfect. It is said that the dip between 40-100 will even out also. My TH's were pretty dang flat in that area so? Somewhere i read Danley talking about modeling with the peaks.
Search you can find it.
ive heard alot of this before about peaks flattening out in the actual design, i read danleys little speech on it too. if that dip between 40 and 100hz fills in, then it should be a wicked design.
im probably going to go with my design, as it doesnt really cost more material wise, and this box is going to be far from permenant. not to mention ive always practiced the "fudge it bigger" principle (and whats 100 litres here and there?) when building subwoofers. besides ive already done panel sizes and a design for my model, and all my hornresp time these days is being sucked up by me trying to design something close in performance to a dr200 or omni top 12(got something as good as the omi 12, using a beta 12a driver, but trying to push that driver up to the dr200 sensitivity range is proving to be difficult! how anyone know how BFM makes his maesurements?(sorry for the OT)).
and i think we mean union the same way, i mean it in the grade 6 math venn diagram way.
im probably going to go with my design, as it doesnt really cost more material wise, and this box is going to be far from permenant. not to mention ive always practiced the "fudge it bigger" principle (and whats 100 litres here and there?
) when building subwoofers. besides ive already done panel sizes and a design for my model, and all my hornresp time these days is being sucked up by me trying to design something close in performance to a dr200 or omni top 12(got something as good as the omi 12, using a beta 12a driver, but trying to push that driver up to the dr200 sensitivity range is proving to be difficult! how anyone know how BFM makes his maesurements?(sorry for the OT)).and i think we mean union the same way, i mean it in the grade 6 math venn diagram way.
Omnitop huh.....
Close the damn ports (feedback makers) and .....
For a kappa 12 and PV22xt setup......
Loud as heck and blowup resistant.
s1 300
s2 2167
L12 45
VRC 28
LRC 20
FR40
tal 6
VTC 1200
Atc 130
The ATC assumes a central plug over the cone dustcap and on the back of the HF driver and is the area remaining for the sound to travel through around the plug and HF driver.
Couple it to a 1.2k compatable horn driver and you have a pretty decent top. Doesn't go too low unfortunately. The hard part is getting the 12 inch up to meet the horn unless you have 2" drivers.
Wrap the throat chamber around the horn driver so the 12" fires around it to the sides. A phase plug would be ideal as well.
The cabinet shound be 14" to 15" high inside max so they can couple together and the 5x15 horn lenses can be used with thier narrow side mounts removed. This allows retention of the quasi line array properties of the box.
You'll have an easier time with a pair of 10" drivers.
If you go piezo you may get distortion on live vocals including speaking but dj is fine. I had not tried Bill's piezo xover fix as it came out long after my complaining and conversion to PV22xt drivers. I'd love to know if anybody tried it though. (they cost me too many clients to try them again).
The 3 problems I found with the omnitop12 are 1) the chamber not having enough insulation, 2) the ports, 3) the shape of the throat. I'm still using 12 of them.
My site has been pulled down for now so photos are not available.
Close the damn ports (feedback makers) and .....
For a kappa 12 and PV22xt setup......
Loud as heck and blowup resistant.
s1 300
s2 2167
L12 45
VRC 28
LRC 20
FR40
tal 6
VTC 1200
Atc 130
The ATC assumes a central plug over the cone dustcap and on the back of the HF driver and is the area remaining for the sound to travel through around the plug and HF driver.
Couple it to a 1.2k compatable horn driver and you have a pretty decent top. Doesn't go too low unfortunately. The hard part is getting the 12 inch up to meet the horn unless you have 2" drivers.
Wrap the throat chamber around the horn driver so the 12" fires around it to the sides. A phase plug would be ideal as well.
The cabinet shound be 14" to 15" high inside max so they can couple together and the 5x15 horn lenses can be used with thier narrow side mounts removed. This allows retention of the quasi line array properties of the box.
You'll have an easier time with a pair of 10" drivers.
If you go piezo you may get distortion on live vocals including speaking but dj is fine. I had not tried Bill's piezo xover fix as it came out long after my complaining and conversion to PV22xt drivers. I'd love to know if anybody tried it though. (they cost me too many clients to try them again).
The 3 problems I found with the omnitop12 are 1) the chamber not having enough insulation, 2) the ports, 3) the shape of the throat. I'm still using 12 of them.
My site has been pulled down for now so photos are not available.
first of, i think another big round of thanks is due, i feel like i kinda hijacked your guysè thread!
this will be used for DJing, but also hopefully for live sound, i was planning on using piezo arrays, but putting them along the side of the cabinet, and building 4(stacking a pair on either side), its only a copy insomuch, that it looks similar, i looked at his design, liked the simplicity and form factor, so i set out making something similar in hornresp. I cant seem to be able to simulate the horn mouth in conjunction with the drivers fr graph (the horn resp sim says pretty much nothing over 700hz, even though the driver is more than 100db/w sensitive on its own over 1khz), i thought of scaling them and laying them ontop of each other....i seem to have been able to achieve 100db+ sensitivity between 100 and 700hz(looking at the fr curve id guess around 102 or 103 between) but this is in 2 pi loading, and mains are usually on stands....
this is all on a budget, so i want to use beta12 drivers, as they have a good balance of powerhandling xmax and efficiency.
so many questions but i feel this would be better in a different thread, these horns are neither subwoofers nor tapped!
anyway, im going to be a stubborn kid and build my deisgn out of 3/4" OSB, as a 585 litre horn, throw some shelf braces in and cross it at 100. once again thank all you guys for your help, i now have far greater understanding of hornresp.
dont think youre off the hook yet though i still have my whole pa to design! this ones just a toy/proof on concept
this will be used for DJing, but also hopefully for live sound, i was planning on using piezo arrays, but putting them along the side of the cabinet, and building 4(stacking a pair on either side), its only a copy insomuch, that it looks similar, i looked at his design, liked the simplicity and form factor, so i set out making something similar in hornresp. I cant seem to be able to simulate the horn mouth in conjunction with the drivers fr graph (the horn resp sim says pretty much nothing over 700hz, even though the driver is more than 100db/w sensitive on its own over 1khz), i thought of scaling them and laying them ontop of each other....i seem to have been able to achieve 100db+ sensitivity between 100 and 700hz(looking at the fr curve id guess around 102 or 103 between) but this is in 2 pi loading, and mains are usually on stands....
this is all on a budget, so i want to use beta12 drivers, as they have a good balance of powerhandling xmax and efficiency.
so many questions but i feel this would be better in a different thread, these horns are neither subwoofers nor tapped!
anyway, im going to be a stubborn kid and build my deisgn out of 3/4" OSB, as a 585 litre horn, throw some shelf braces in and cross it at 100. once again thank all you guys for your help, i now have far greater understanding of hornresp.
dont think youre off the hook yet though i still have my whole pa to design! this ones just a toy/proof on concept
xstephanx:
for tops... yea, what screamers says. He's been there, done that, and has the battle scars to prove it...
I've done some playing around with tops myself, and come up with a reasonable top on the cheap, using mcm 55-1740's. They wouldn't stand up to what screamers puts them through however...
Screamers -- When do we get to see the final build with your whole setup?
for tops... yea, what screamers says. He's been there, done that, and has the battle scars to prove it...
I've done some playing around with tops myself, and come up with a reasonable top on the cheap, using mcm 55-1740's. They wouldn't stand up to what screamers puts them through however...
Screamers -- When do we get to see the final build with your whole setup?
Attachments
Cute little box there Jbell.
I'd may build a yellow one and I shall call it...."Tweety"
Right now I'm trying to figure out why the unglued taped prototype tests better than the properly built and glued boxes.
The only key differences are that the glued ones are painted inside (primed) and have the bracing. I also believe there is a QC variance in the 3015LF as they are probably made in china so I will swap drivers today and retest.
Nothing official untill I can get 3 finished boxes outside.
One problem with piezos is quality. I suggest you get your piezos from speakerhardware.com, tested and or assembled from them. If I didn't WASTE, 200 bucks on piezos I wouldn't suggest this. Unfortunately the Motorola Piezos CTS are the best but a bank of them cost's as much as a good 2" driver!!!!!!!!!!!!.
For DJ, good piezos are fine. For live, use compressors on your vocals or you'll be very sorry.
I'd may build a yellow one and I shall call it...."Tweety"
Right now I'm trying to figure out why the unglued taped prototype tests better than the properly built and glued boxes.
The only key differences are that the glued ones are painted inside (primed) and have the bracing. I also believe there is a QC variance in the 3015LF as they are probably made in china so I will swap drivers today and retest.
Nothing official untill I can get 3 finished boxes outside.
One problem with piezos is quality. I suggest you get your piezos from speakerhardware.com, tested and or assembled from them. If I didn't WASTE, 200 bucks on piezos I wouldn't suggest this. Unfortunately the Motorola Piezos CTS are the best but a bank of them cost's as much as a good 2" driver!!!!!!!!!!!!.
For DJ, good piezos are fine. For live, use compressors on your vocals or you'll be very sorry.
ok, thats good advice screamer, partsexpress has this goldwood compression driver ive been looking at, its only good to about 16khz, but i could always throw in a little piezo box for the really high highs if i find them too lacking. says 100 watts rms, 105db sensitivity, and 1.2khz-16khz! for $24 a pop! the magnet is pretty big too.
its under 2" compresison drivers for some reason...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=270-186
what do you think about that? one of those mounted vertically in the middle of the mouth?(mainly directed at screamer)
jbell, nice little horn! hows the FR on them? at that price/size id be happy building 8 and taking as many as i need....although if they cant take screamers abuse, i dont know how theyre going to like the idea of loud EDM(electronic dance music, for the old folks) being played through them all the time.
screamer, im going to look at your design and see if i can use it/tweak it to work with a cheaper driver.
BACK ON TOPIC THOUGH!( i keep derailing you guys!)
i hear alot of people say that a 3015LF is the best bang for your buck in a tapped horn, i hear alot of people even saying that ssecond to the b&c tbx, its the best driver for a tapped horn. in canada however, these drivers cost me about 220 a pop, wheras i could get almost 4 cheaper 15s with 4mm xmax for the same price almost.
if i dont mind having say, 8 sub cabs, would i see a big loss in output from using the cheaper drivers? these would also be a little cheaper to replace when i blow them up(as im sure being an amateur dj, i will). thermal powerhandling is low, and id be surprised if they took the rated RMS, but they reach full excursion in the passband with only 50 or so watts anyway(ive done a c9ouple tentatitve models).
i can get these guys locally pretty damn cheaply
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-384
i want to have 4 sub cabs at least(which i will eventually expand to 8), so with the cash i can spend the most expensive driver i can throw in 4 of em would be an eminence beta, which doesnt really seem to have much of an advantage over the goldwood model apart from a SLIGHTLY higher xmax and more thermal power handling(which i wouldnt need anyway, as the drivers run out of gas before they hit 100 watts). however if a pair of 3015lf is still gonna blow 8 goldwoods or 4 beta 15s out of the water, im fine with just doing that.
its under 2" compresison drivers for some reason...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=270-186
what do you think about that? one of those mounted vertically in the middle of the mouth?(mainly directed at screamer)
jbell, nice little horn! hows the FR on them? at that price/size id be happy building 8 and taking as many as i need....although if they cant take screamers abuse, i dont know how theyre going to like the idea of loud EDM(electronic dance music, for the old folks
) being played through them all the time.screamer, im going to look at your design and see if i can use it/tweak it to work with a cheaper driver.
BACK ON TOPIC THOUGH!( i keep derailing you guys!)
i hear alot of people say that a 3015LF is the best bang for your buck in a tapped horn, i hear alot of people even saying that ssecond to the b&c tbx, its the best driver for a tapped horn. in canada however, these drivers cost me about 220 a pop, wheras i could get almost 4 cheaper 15s with 4mm xmax for the same price almost.
if i dont mind having say, 8 sub cabs, would i see a big loss in output from using the cheaper drivers? these would also be a little cheaper to replace when i blow them up(as im sure being an amateur dj, i will). thermal powerhandling is low, and id be surprised if they took the rated RMS, but they reach full excursion in the passband with only 50 or so watts anyway(ive done a c9ouple tentatitve models).
i can get these guys locally pretty damn cheaply
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-384
i want to have 4 sub cabs at least(which i will eventually expand to 8), so with the cash i can spend the most expensive driver i can throw in 4 of em would be an eminence beta, which doesnt really seem to have much of an advantage over the goldwood model apart from a SLIGHTLY higher xmax and more thermal power handling(which i wouldnt need anyway, as the drivers run out of gas before they hit 100 watts). however if a pair of 3015lf is still gonna blow 8 goldwoods or 4 beta 15s out of the water, im fine with just doing that.
The sealed version of my top box did a football stadium (12), the ported sounds much better. I posted the hornresp params, so you can see what the response looks like for the ported. I used 4 of my big TH's to go with these tops. Both designs are brain dead simple to build.
Speakerhardware.com is a great place for 3015lf's.
Here's some background, if search hasn't already turned this up.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127908&highlight=
Speakerhardware.com is a great place for 3015lf's.
Here's some background, if search hasn't already turned this up.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127908&highlight=
In case anybody's been curious...I've been a bit....ahhh....errr ....busy An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
First impressions..
I think my horn is a hair too short.
Alone they sound O.K. In a batch of 3 they kick %&*(.
The best way to describe a TH for live sound would probably be...
Muscle car. Muscle cars plod and sputter along and seem to struggle a little in normal slow traffic, as soon as the road opens up and you hit the gas....VROOOOM!. Smooth, silky, and powerfull.
That's about as close as I can get to describing a bunch of TH boxes. I wowed a couple of high end jazz players with good ears debuiting them tonight. We had to go outside and listen to them through the double doors over 100 feet away, clear as a bell.
I think I'll take the rest of the night off......
Xstephanx
Those drivers will probably work. Don't worry about 16k.... most people can't hear above 12k anyway.
If you are going to be loud....don't skimp on the subs.
Blowing up 8 cheap drivers a few times and getting stuck with boxes that were made to only work with them will suck big time.
If you want bang for the buck with lowest bass and only 4 boxes, look into the 18" tapped horns on the web.
We tested dance music on a batch of 3 15" tapped tonight as half my normal go out system and it was most excellent. I would not dare to do dance music on less than 6 total 15" tapped.
Here ya go on the OT12 kappa loaded PV22xt's in stock BFM boxes. Basically OT12 HUMMERs, military version.
The stock ot12 with the throat fillers will probably be fine for what you are doing. Use real HF horns and tri amp the whole mess.
Those drivers will probably work. Don't worry about 16k.... most people can't hear above 12k anyway.
If you are going to be loud....don't skimp on the subs.
Blowing up 8 cheap drivers a few times and getting stuck with boxes that were made to only work with them will suck big time.
If you want bang for the buck with lowest bass and only 4 boxes, look into the 18" tapped horns on the web.
We tested dance music on a batch of 3 15" tapped tonight as half my normal go out system and it was most excellent. I would not dare to do dance music on less than 6 total 15" tapped.
Here ya go on the OT12 kappa loaded PV22xt's in stock BFM boxes. Basically OT12 HUMMERs, military version.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The stock ot12 with the throat fillers will probably be fine for what you are doing. Use real HF horns and tri amp the whole mess.
Cash bieng a BIG problem, I'll use them for now untill I can get more 4015's. I don't like the 3015. As a matter of fact I don't like any neo drivers anymore. They seem to congregate around speaker repair shops as fast as cheap dj speakers do.
It would seem that a number of very expensive cabinets (no names mentioned) keep coming in every few months with blown neos while the conventional heavy beasts keep going.
I believe it has to do with both the supply of neo and the heat transfer cababilities of the speaker's magnet design.
As long as you are not going into combat with them they are fine.
Id equate it to a learjet vs an A10, I'll take the A10's.
It would seem that a number of very expensive cabinets (no names mentioned) keep coming in every few months with blown neos while the conventional heavy beasts keep going.
I believe it has to do with both the supply of neo and the heat transfer cababilities of the speaker's magnet design.
As long as you are not going into combat with them they are fine.
Id equate it to a learjet vs an A10, I'll take the A10's.
nice boxes screamer! looks like someones a little mroe dedicated to making sawdust than i am. you also have a really good point, that if i blow up 8 shitty subs, then i just have a bunch of usueless boxes, but this voice in my head keeps going "get more drivers, build more boxes, thermal power handling isnt an issue with TH!"
so 3015lf really seems to be the only driver you guys reccomend then.
after shipping/currency conversion/duties, a 3015lf from speakerhardware is going to cost almost as much as if i baught it locally, and itll be way fastrer if i buy locally.(yeah living in canada DOES kinda suck sometimes)
on the other hand, its good that the compression drivers are up to snuff, ill continue working on my tops till i get bored(or i end up with a drawing and dimensions), then ill face the sub problem again. i might pick up one of those goldwood 15s, and see what kind of abuse they can take, if theyre good for the rated power, then thats an aweful lot of displacement at low cost(if i had 8 of them), and if i can get all they got at less than 100 watts a cab( as hornresp predicts) then blowing them up may not be an issue.
how do i model multiple subs? say i wanted to model the comvbined response/output of 8 cabs.
so 3015lf really seems to be the only driver you guys reccomend then.
after shipping/currency conversion/duties, a 3015lf from speakerhardware is going to cost almost as much as if i baught it locally, and itll be way fastrer if i buy locally.(yeah living in canada DOES kinda suck sometimes)
on the other hand, its good that the compression drivers are up to snuff, ill continue working on my tops till i get bored(or i end up with a drawing and dimensions), then ill face the sub problem again. i might pick up one of those goldwood 15s, and see what kind of abuse they can take, if theyre good for the rated power, then thats an aweful lot of displacement at low cost(if i had 8 of them), and if i can get all they got at less than 100 watts a cab( as hornresp predicts) then blowing them up may not be an issue.
how do i model multiple subs? say i wanted to model the comvbined response/output of 8 cabs.
xstephanx
use Akabak or just model at .5 Pi which is within a db of 4 cabs.
Then add another 5 db for the next 4.
Or double the driver and cabinet specs and run that at .5 Pi.
screamersusa
Understand what you mean about the neo's. The only thing I have found I like them in so far is 2 way cabinets down to 80 Hz. At 25lbs per cab it is a cinch to lug them around.
I am torn when it comes to making
a decision about what sub I should build next. First there is my TH Mini clone that has the output level of the 3015 except it only goes to 48Hz. BUT is 1/3 the size. So 6 cabs for the space of 2. Then there is the 4015. And then there is TBX100. Which performs lower at a slight Db advantage or them all. Both the B&C drivers cost more. Also came up with a dual Lab 12 that can hit the 145 plus mark but is the roughly the same size that Lab sub. BIG.
I am not planning on starting a build until the end of February so i still have time to decided.
use Akabak or just model at .5 Pi which is within a db of 4 cabs.
Then add another 5 db for the next 4.
Or double the driver and cabinet specs and run that at .5 Pi.
screamersusa
Understand what you mean about the neo's. The only thing I have found I like them in so far is 2 way cabinets down to 80 Hz. At 25lbs per cab it is a cinch to lug them around.
I am torn when it comes to making
a decision about what sub I should build next. First there is my TH Mini clone that has the output level of the 3015 except it only goes to 48Hz. BUT is 1/3 the size. So 6 cabs for the space of 2. Then there is the 4015. And then there is TBX100. Which performs lower at a slight Db advantage or them all. Both the B&C drivers cost more. Also came up with a dual Lab 12 that can hit the 145 plus mark but is the roughly the same size that Lab sub. BIG.
I am not planning on starting a build until the end of February so i still have time to decided.