Hi,
So we have finally achieved the same as in studio, if some ejit turns on the main monitors and the nearfields on the console at the same time.
It does a few interesting things, I have used this some times during mixes (punching the nearfields in for a short time without muting the mains) as the nearfields can add some extra clarity by being so close (despite all the drawbacks) to analyse more closely what is played back (others have used 'can's put on/off in the same.
But I never would suggest that such a setup is intended in the recording or realistic.
In fact, very little I should think can be further from realism and truthful reproduction of the recording.
OF COURSE. there are many speaker arrangements that add more speakers for certain effects. The best case can be made for a centre speaker, a certain amount has been made for "pseudo quad" rear speakers, I find they help to restore the "in the audience" feel (instead of way behind the audience) for live recording (e.g. Eagles Hotel California live) but they do not work at all for good minimalistic recordings that have excellent hall ambience, it confuses the recoded space.
So perhaps what we really need is a pair of really good mains plus Amp and a small multi-channel "Effect Amp" that can add delay, EQ, level adjustments and can drive some "FX Rears" (Pseudo Quad), "FX Forward Sides" (Watson), "FX Centre" (centre speakers) and "FX Bipole" (Bose Direct/Reflecting) and some add in woofers to place near the listening position to combat room modes?
Ciao T
So we have finally achieved the same as in studio, if some ejit turns on the main monitors and the nearfields on the console at the same time.
It does a few interesting things, I have used this some times during mixes (punching the nearfields in for a short time without muting the mains) as the nearfields can add some extra clarity by being so close (despite all the drawbacks) to analyse more closely what is played back (others have used 'can's put on/off in the same.
But I never would suggest that such a setup is intended in the recording or realistic.
In fact, very little I should think can be further from realism and truthful reproduction of the recording.
OF COURSE. there are many speaker arrangements that add more speakers for certain effects. The best case can be made for a centre speaker, a certain amount has been made for "pseudo quad" rear speakers, I find they help to restore the "in the audience" feel (instead of way behind the audience) for live recording (e.g. Eagles Hotel California live) but they do not work at all for good minimalistic recordings that have excellent hall ambience, it confuses the recoded space.
So perhaps what we really need is a pair of really good mains plus Amp and a small multi-channel "Effect Amp" that can add delay, EQ, level adjustments and can drive some "FX Rears" (Pseudo Quad), "FX Forward Sides" (Watson), "FX Centre" (centre speakers) and "FX Bipole" (Bose Direct/Reflecting) and some add in woofers to place near the listening position to combat room modes?
Ciao T
I believe my hearing is made the same way than yours.
I agree and that's why I asked you what you're hearing. I'm always interested in other peoples experiences but I also have a general interest in psychoacoustics. It's a scientific field that can't be ignored.
I actually used to have a dipole sub directly behind the main listening position:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Very flat response free of detrimental modal effects. Now I get a perceptually identical presentation from a two monopole subwoofer setup EQ'd with Audyssey XT32. The benefit is a much larger listening area: Minimizing seat-to-seat variance with two subwoofers
Yes, biological we can asume that we are the same. Talking about sound is difficult though. I got my Watsons integrated quite well but when i played it to my son he said "This does not sound the same then what we get usually", and he ment that it sounded unfamiliar ( worse ? ). After listening more he got better used to the new arangement so i concluded that we have to familiarize ourselfs with a certain setup and after we have done that we can accept almost anything when the sound is not downright blurred and distorted or noisy. That makes it difficult to find out what is more "real", "realistic" or "natural". This is one reason i like to invite people to listen to my setup. Then we are talking. My mother said "What you can not toutch is not real".
Lounge topic, this is all the problem of the biased listening. But thanks to these auto adjustments, we finish to feel sublime our crappy devices. The problem comes when we try to communicate this always short living enthusiasm.
This is how it looks today. I listen to the Watsons only to check out what they spacially do.
I call the shades Ludos. They make the location of the Watsons less obvious and imaging is even better.
Lets see what my son sais tomorrow. Today he said that he could still hear the location of the Watsons although he could hear a projected, focussed image too.
I call the shades Ludos. They make the location of the Watsons less obvious and imaging is even better.
Lets see what my son sais tomorrow. Today he said that he could still hear the location of the Watsons although he could hear a projected, focussed image too.
Attachments
Joachim,
Try pointing the Kiso's towards the main speaker instead towards you. This may remove or reduce the ability to hear them separately.
Ciao T
Try pointing the Kiso's towards the main speaker instead towards you. This may remove or reduce the ability to hear them separately.
Ciao T
...or point them to the ceiling.
The bigger problem I see is the chair. How high is the back? It could create very early reflections. A chair with a lower back would be better but it would need to be moved away from the back wall or the problem with very early reflections would remain.
The bigger problem I see is the chair. How high is the back? It could create very early reflections. A chair with a lower back would be better but it would need to be moved away from the back wall or the problem with very early reflections would remain.
Markus,
I like your arrangement for the fronts. Out of curiosity (which killed the Cat and I'm already down 7 of my 9 lives, but what the heck), what are the speakers? They seem familiar but I cannot quite make them out.
Ciao T
I like your arrangement for the fronts. Out of curiosity (which killed the Cat and I'm already down 7 of my 9 lives, but what the heck), what are the speakers? They seem familiar but I cannot quite make them out.
Ciao T
That's the setup I had years ago while living in Munich. The drivers in the picture are Audio Nirvana 'Super 10'. They sounded pretty bad and I went back to the Visaton B200s which were originally installed.
Markus,
Oh, yes, I thought re-baged "Guide Sound" China stuff...
So, what are you running now?
Ciao T
Oh, yes, I thought re-baged "Guide Sound" China stuff...
So, what are you running now?
Ciao T
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That's my standard setup (minus the surrounds). Everything else was just tests.
Currently have absorbers installed that reduce contralateral reflections which improves imaging.
Currently have absorbers installed that reduce contralateral reflections which improves imaging.
No you have missed the point, the secondary nearfield Speakers are used at a much lower volume, extremely low in fact.
Secondly the nearfield pair are not run fullrange as such, the speakers do not give away their position at all without the treble. The idea with Watson is to use Speakers without high frequency directional cues.
I have played with this set up.
The Watson style configuration does not sound anything like running a pair of nearfield monitors and farfield speakers at the same time or like anything so crude as typical Surround sound for that matter, it may be too subtle for the effort with some types of music. Incidently allowing the nearfield speakers to produce significant treble ruins the experience, it just sounds like crude surround sound.
Before anyone criticizes this concept why not try it. I have only heard this with traditional monopole passive box speakers.
For many people this will be DIY experimentation or testing without having to build or buy anything! Lots of Audiophiles will have spare amp's and small speakers.
It is easy to try this set up in many systems, especially power amp's with loop out.
Other system owners could try this using the pre outs on an integrated to another integrated amp or power amp with volume pot or even a pair of small active speakers for the Watson Speaker.
Disable the treble on a pair of small monitor speakers or large satellites (biwireable speakers -Childs play), use these in the nearfield. Turn the volume down on the second speakers until the front speakers dominate totally. You should only notice the the presence (or lack thereof) of Watsons when they are turned off, the soundstage subtly shrinking, sometimes stereo imaging becoming less precise with Watson turned off.
Even if you do not like it (get it right and I doubt it) it costs you nothing.
For many people this will be DIY experimentation or testing without having to build or buy anything! Lots of Audiophiles will have spare amp's and small speakers.
It is easy to try this set up in many systems, especially power amp's with loop out.
Other system owners could try this using the pre outs on an integrated to another integrated amp or power amp with volume pot or even a pair of small active speakers for the Watson Speaker.
Disable the treble on a pair of small monitor speakers or large satellites (biwireable speakers -Childs play), use these in the nearfield. Turn the volume down on the second speakers until the front speakers dominate totally. You should only notice the the presence (or lack thereof) of Watsons when they are turned off, the soundstage subtly shrinking, sometimes stereo imaging becoming less precise with Watson turned off.
Even if you do not like it (get it right and I doubt it) it costs you nothing.
Hi,
Agreed. No-one needs a bunch of fogeys telling them what to like.
Try it. If you like it, keep it. If not, don't.
de gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est
Ciao T
Agreed. No-one needs a bunch of fogeys telling them what to like.
Try it. If you like it, keep it. If not, don't.
de gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est
Ciao T