Krill - The little amp that might...

[Greg Erskine]

syn08 is being very helpful and was the first one to build the output section with his own PCB design I think, excluding Steve of course.

I am in two minds whether to post in this thread because I don't want to add to the bad feelings that are present but....

To help someone, that person must want the help. Steve obviously doesn't want syn08's help and he is not willing to help him either. syn08 is trying to force Steve's hand. This is Steve's thread about Steve's amp so his wishes should be paramount.

The issue of models should have been addressed in private mails after the first request.

regards

 

[destroyer X]

This picture was taken before i have found my own errors into the board and

also resistance values.

Was one of those Krill i have assembled.

Sound was very good...even the unit i had with crazy off set.

Sorry... i could not discover my mistake about that off set... was adjustable to zero, also current could be fixed into 25 miliamps...but i have found (in that amplifier... that one i have made...having my own natural mistakes and errors while building).... that misadjusting i had a superb nice sound...also increasing stand by bias.

After that i turn a little bit bad related my health and have stopped to assemble and debug my own mistakes.

Well...i use to make mistakes...it is very usual, as i do things too much fast and this turns mistakes very easy to be done.

I am crazy to listen the amplifier once again.... Robson is constructing to me... sound was very, very, very nice.

If switches or not... i am really not bothering myself about, as sounds great!

My low frequency simulations shows all drivers and power transistors are "on" all time long, full power and into every sinusoidal wave points...always power transistor having emitter current... this seems to me never switches off.... at least using low frequencies...about high frequencies... above 15 thousand i am unable to listen...so... i cannot tell you nothing...but i believe was tested by Steve..he has used instruments to measure, not simulator..was really real life measurements made into a working amplifier.

Attention... the image is just to let you see the amplifier assembled into an other way... i repeat, this one had errors that was fixed latter related the moment this picture was taken.

regards,

Carlos

 

[Lumba Ogir]

Charlie,
emitter resistors on the drivers would improve DC stability (as well).

 

[jkeny]

Chris,
I appreciate your effort to moderate this thread but I won't stand by & watch Steve being harassed by a consistent posting of the same request by a number of posters. This is nothing to do with tone of posts but rather I see it as the the technique of bullying (something that has been brought up on this thread already).

I believe Greg Erskine is correct, this should have been addressed privately after the first unanswered request.

syn08 is being very helpful and was the first one to build the output section with his own PCB design I think, excluding Steve of course.

I see you too have also confirmed that syn has built something already so why is he now chasing models? Why does he not show us all his schematic used, measurements taken, etc so these can be evaluated/analysed/simulated?

I believe this would be of much more benefit (if that is the intention) than what's happening here.

 

[MJL21193]

Bully! Surely a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

If syn08 has built this design and tested it (he has the means, apparently), he may have some VERY relevant information on the design. If the reaction from the fan(s) wasn't so belligerent, he might be more willing to share.
I went further with my crude construction, as far as any of the constructors have, even though they have boards to work from. I wouldn't bother posting any of my findings in this thread.
The attitude here is stifling, with a self proclaimed sheriff laying down the law.

 

[jkeny]

John,
Why not post your crude construction here, measurements & findings - surely that's what the whole thread is about - investigating the circuit? Is this not your intent here? Negative results are just as instructive, possibly more so!

 

[mannycc]

By syn08

Steve, no need to get defensive, I'm trying to help. This is a good chance to clear the waters, I don't see any reason why rejecting the help I am offering here.

Believe you need to come to a self realization, it appears you are the only one who dont know you are offering some unsolicited help. If your really want to help, pls Sir post something about the OP Krill amp you claim to have constructed, let's discuss about that... tell us about the problems you encountered (bet there is/are) and in that way others will know which way not to take instead of indirectly questioning the credibility of the designer covered by finely worded denials??

I am not the designer but I do feel the heat of undeserved annoyance. The best help you can do is to avoid posting such allegations. How? what? where? We need to be more sensitive to what we say and do not only sometimes.

Regards,
mannycc

 

[Steve Dunlap]

Steve claimed above that he simulated the amp with very good results. I am trying to remove any doubts regarding Steve's design by offering everybody the opportunity to reproduce the results.

I know better than many around that the gap between simulation and reality can be quite large. But if this design can be simulated (and again, this is what Steve claims above), this could be a significant step forward, until more of those building the amp will come up with some tangible results. Unfortunately, either subjective or even objective results can barely be reproduced in this virtual environment, therefore consistent simulation results could offer a common platform for everybody to learn something new about this design.

This is DIY and this is the way I am having fun. Other have fun plugging symbols in the simulator and jerking off in front of a bunch of numbers.
__________________
Advanced DIY Audio Projects:

http://www.synaesthesia.ca

 

[Steve Dunlap]

I would have thought it bleeding obvious!

1. Steve has referred to simulating his circuit with specific results in the past.

2. Apparently everyone to date who has tried to replicate the simulation has not been able to match Steve's results. This in part is driving the rather strident criticism.

3. Syn08 seems to be doing everything in his power to replicate Steve's simulation to the nth degree and thus provide independent corroboration.

Then everyone can move on ....... or not!

1. I did not give specific results. I simply stated that simulated results agreed closely with measured results.

2. As I recall, some did get results as good as or better than mine. Some also got very bad results. My results may not be correct, but pretty much everyone else must be incorrect also.

3. Syn08 seems to be doing everything in his power to prove I could not have done something he hasn't done first. He has attacked me in what I perceive as a negative or even belligerent manner from the beginning. He treats others this way also. He has given me no reason to trust his "help" is what he claims. At this point I can only believe he will do or say anything to support his position that I have not built and tested this design.


Chris,

You said:

Hi jkeny,
syn08 is being very helpful and was the first one to build the output section with his own PCB design I think, excluding Steve of course.


Based on the E-mails I have received and what has been posted here, it appears to me that ostripper was the first to report building my output. MJL21193 has also built it and mentioned that here. Several others have built either the output or the complete amp with very good results. Most of them will not post here because of the prevailing negative attitude. They don't want the attacks that others (like MJL21193) received as a result of posting their findings.

syn08 has not provided any evidence that he has built this amp. He only claims to have done so. He could also post his simulation results so I and everyone else can see just how bad my amp really is. It does not matter to me what he posts. If it doesn't agree with what I know is correct, he is simply wrong.

 

[Joshua_G]

Steve claimed above that he simulated the amp with very good results. I am trying to remove any doubts regarding Steve's design by offering everybody the opportunity to reproduce the results.

I know better than many around that the gap between simulation and reality can be quite large. But if this design can be simulated (and again, this is what Steve claims above), this could be a significant step forward, until more of those building the amp will come up with some tangible results. Unfortunately, either subjective or even objective results can barely be reproduced in this virtual environment, therefore consistent simulation results could offer a common platform for everybody to learn something new about this design.

Hi syn08,
Thank you for helping here. I can see that you have spent a great deal of time and energy with this in order to help. Your offer to locate the actual models is both kind and helpful. The fact that you have also built an output section and tested it has not been lost on me either.

Steve wrote that few simulation software failed to simulate this design. So, in order to repeat Steve's simulation, both the same simulation software and same models are needed.

 

[Joshua_G]

1. I did not give specific results. I simply stated that simulated results agreed closely with measured results.

This is probably the most significant fact concerning the present debate here.

As far as I recall, you gave distortion figures to ANOTHER design of yours, never to this one. Therefore, I fail to see how any simulation may prove or disprove any claim of yours.

 

[ostripper]

This is DIY and this is the way I am having fun. Other have fun plugging symbols in the simulator and jerking off in front of a bunch of numbers

😎 excellent tennessee style retort.. funny too 🙂

It is a shame how this thread has gone. 🙁
I guess it just reflects what you would encounter in the real
world.
If anything the krill "factor" has been a learning curve
for class B OPS's with the side benefit of having another
type of OPS to use.

Maybe DIYAUDIO's motto "by fanatic's - for fanatics"
is true. Just a pile of "sand" (silicon), but some take
it just a little too seriously.
OS

 

[jkeny]

Originally posted by syn08 ...... until more of those building the amp will come up with some tangible results. Unfortunately, either subjective or even objective results can barely be reproduced in this virtual environment, therefore consistent simulation results could offer a common platform for everybody to learn something new about this design.

This exposes the pretence that syn08 has been perpetrating all along - pretending to help by looking for the correct simulation model while all the time he had already built it, according to what he has stated here & what Anatech has stated!

When asked to produce his results, experiences, etc, he refuses. I don't find this at all helpful? What is the intent? Steve has said here to go ahead & post. What's stopping him?

It still bewilders me the turn that this thread took - I expected an open sharing attitude like Os but apparently he's the exception here.

Edit: Let me correct that - most people on this forum are like OS, open & sharing, - it's just that this thread has exposed for me another ugly side to the forum that I haven't witnessed before & I'm still trying to understand the motivations.
Os, you're right it is just sand, what's all the fuss about?

 

[KLe]

What follows is O/T, but somehow very relevant.

An original thinker posts a novel amp circuit, asking humbly for comment.

The output stage is extraordinary, with biasing arrangements of utterly original design. It is so new, and so unusual, simulators and audiophiles alike are frequently unable to figure out how it works.

Three groups respond. Those of math bent, keen on analysis; those who want to know how it sounds; and those who quietly, immediately, begin assembly to hear for themselves.

The purpose of high end is to bring more reality to recorded music. Understanding the working principles is interesting, but the amp itself shows no concern if the listener understands its operation or not. The designer, who is unwell and recently quadriplegic, is no longer able to build his own amps, and is keen to offer his intellectual property at no cost for others to build, listen and comment constructively.

One 'analyst' is trying to figure out why simulations vary and perhaps correctly settles on the models used. They vary, and might be giving spurious results. This is a distraction, I would opine, just as overt criticism of a 'switching' design is not called for at this stage.

Steve wants it built, listened to, and critiqued. It is original, and highly interesting. Along with many others, I don't fully understand it myself, but we should not criticise until we have heard it, worked with it. Let this be a construction thread, and next a listening thread. Once ten have been built, and debugged fully, and the working principle is better understood maybe the simulations will all agree (models, anyone?). Let's respect Steve for his original work, his altruism, and be ever mindful that right now is arguably the worst period of his life as he comes to grips with his illness and disabilities. I believe Steve has shown his bona fides but I'm not surprised at the criticism; anything new is ALWAYS criticised, particularly by the experts, who seem to need to assert their expertise at every call.

Please guys, open minds - it's really needed right now.

Hugh

Thank you Hugh, agree completely, very nicely and constructively stated 🙂

 

[scott wurcer]

When asked to produce his results, experiences, etc, he refuses. I don't find this at all helpful? What is the intent? Steve has said here to go ahead & post. What's stopping him?

I would respectfully say that the same applies to SD he still has not posted even one simple simulation result that supports his claims.

 

[Joshua_G]

I would respectfully say that the same applies to SD he still has not posted even one simple simulation result that supports his claims.

Only Steve Dunlap posted no claims for THIS design.

 

[scott wurcer]

Only Steve Dunlap posted no claims for THIS design.

Yes, it was explicitly posted that the simulations agreed with the measured results. Pretty simple to post some plots of what we might expect.

 

[Joshua_G]

Yes, it was explicitly posted that the simulations agreed with the measured results. Pretty simple to post some plots of what we might expect.

Only, he gave no figures for the simulated/measured results for THIS design.

 

[scott wurcer]

Only, he gave no figures for the simulated/measured results for THIS design.

If you would make a cojent point it would be nice. Does it not seem a little strange that a simple post of a few basic results to clear the air has not happened? I know why but that's my secret.

 

[anatech]

Hi Steve,
Actually, I had forgotten that ostripper had also built this when I posted. Thank you for reminding me.

I have exchanged email with a number of members here over the years. I think what is happening is not actually an attack on your amplifier design. What I can say is that I do believe syn08 is sincere about helping members out, and he does have the experience and equipment to do detailed testing. I also believe that a number of people have made various statements and are now entrenched in defending them. In short, it has become personal for many.

What does that prove? Well, it proves that you have an interesting design that provokes thought and opinions. So much so that many have weighed in with both their opinions and soldering irons. There are also some people with excellent credentials who feel the circuit works, but not as well as the specifications that were mentioned a while ago.

So, there we have a clash of egos and experience from various members. What I have been trying to have people do is settle down on the debate and simply wait until the results from builders start coming in. For his part, syn08 has been attempting to resolve and figure out how to get your same simulator results. Yes, he has been persistent with his requests for more information, but I do know him well enough to know if he got your results, or ones close to that, he would put his findings here in print. He is a straight shooter, that much I have figured out.

Hi jkeny,
No one is attacking Steve's design, but they do want to have the tools to see for themselves. I'm sure that if the results don't agree, the next step would be to find out why they differ. Simply a quest for information. For some, possibly they feel their reputation is one the line. This would be the motivation you are looking for. No matter who you are, you don't like to be wrong and you also want to make sure you are on solid ground. Just like Steve who also does not want to be wrong and does want his design to be accepted favorably. It's a people thing. There are no dark, nefarious undercurrents here.

You will find this behavior on every internet site out there, even at DiyHiFi. Like I said. It's a people thing. Let it slide. In fact, everyone should just relax and wait for the results to come in.
Yes, I have read some of your posts at your home site.

Hi syn08,
It seems that Steve is not comfortable with your offer to help. I imagine that you could talk to other, interested members via email or another thread. There are other members vehemently opposed to any mention of help also. That's too bad since you have tried to help.

Hi ostripper,
I'd like to thank you for your excellent support for all our members here with this project. I just didn't want to leave you out since you put so much work into things.

Hi Scott,
For your input, you do have some excellent points. It would seem that commenting further will not go well. No fault of yours either. This is an impossible situation that is being allowed to continue. The solutions are really so simple. The built units should resolve the truth if any can get to a good service bench for measurements. Which ever way the numbers go.

All,
I seem to be attracting the wrong type of comments here. I have attempted to settle people down. It's only audio for Pete's sake! There are too many people trying to prove they are right and not cutting any slack. For my part, I'll retreat to other threads. The way things are going, I don't see anyone coming out happy except those who have built an amp that sounds nice, no matter what the hard numbers show.

-Chris