From what I read in the past, the latency of USB microphones tends to be rather unpredictable. I have no personal experience with such microphones, though.Do you have a reason for this statement? Asking, not condemning. If you convert the data to digital at the microphone or at the computer what would be the difference?
I can't speak for anyone else, but despite a change in priorities, my two expressed goals have not changed from day one:But what seems to have happened here is typical "features bloat" where people want everything all at once...
In my opinion, there are two primary reasons to pursue a DIY near field scanner:
- full range, high resolution, anechoic data from echoic rooms.
- high resolution polar data.
So so far, I have two big questions I'd like some help with, please:
1. what is needed to turn a measurement set into a view of radiation modes (for lack better way to ask the question)? Geddes uses a FORTRAN routine, but would something like open source mathematical software work, or is it best to have purpose built software?
2. Weinreich's paper and the Near Field Scanner both are capable of "sound field separation", in other words, they can pull the room reflections out of the measurement and give you just the direct sound from the speaker (no need for an anechoic chamber!). Klippel only appears to do this up to 1kHz (plus or minus an octave) and uses measurement windowing above that, Weinreich didn't appear to us it very high in frequency either. It appears to work by looking at the timing of sound waves passing through a pair of measurement shells? But what I'd really like to know is if Weinreich could do that with technology from the late 1970's, can intrepid DIYers do the same with available software and hardware today?
I would think that would also be the case here. I have had friends find that single channel USB interfaces don't work for recording looping music, I would imagine that the effect would be worse when trying to use for measurements (in this context).From what I read in the past, the latency of USB microphones tends to be rather unpredictable. I have no personal experience with such microphones, though.
That's good to hear! This makes the project come back to needing hardware.I believe it is just a matter of having a compatible data format and adapting the naming scheme of the measurements so the code knows which x,y,z coordinate they represent. NTK has been willing to help me with using ARTA pir files as input and using a cylindrical set of coordinates. It is my understanding that the code is flexible enough to accommodate different options. I'm almost certain that if a dataset was available he would help to make the code process it.
The controller has a USB interface.What are you going to use to communicate between the stepper drives and the computer?
https://www.pololu.com/product/3141
![IMG_20240217_201428027.jpg IMG_20240217_201428027.jpg](https://www.diyaudio.com/community/data/attachments/1182/1182528-3af4984181ebe72a4825cf8fa1852025.jpg)
It is an explicit requirment for the measurements to be accurately time referenced. The best way to do this is with a dual channel measurement from an analogue microphone. With a good or even average interface ASIO or WDM driver there is no problem capturing this with Windows or any other operating system.Do you have a reason for this statement? Asking, not condemning. If you convert the data to digital at the microphone or at the computer what would be the difference?
USB mics bring a lot of timimg problems to the table. There are ways around it but I would recommend for the sanity of anyone trying to do this that they leave the USB mic in the drawer.
Thanks, I will discuss it with NTK to see if he is still interested and what was missing from the previous information.I am fully willing to describe my system in any detail that one wants, preferably in public.
I still think Sound Field separation for the 200Hz to 1K region is a worthwhile addition if it can be done without the need for a full blown robot.
Perhaps with some optimization of acoustic centre and symmetry the number of points needed might be small enough that manual or semi automated become worth looking at, that was my hope.
you mean leave them at the shelf in the (digital) storethat they leave the USB mic in the drawer
Can you explain how this is an addition compared to gated measurements?I still think Sound Field separation for the 200Hz to 1K region is a worthwhile addition if it can be done without the need for a full blown robot.
With a bit of space 200Hz is absolutely no problem at all with gated measurements.
Any issues or resonances problems at these lower frequencies can be seen with near-field measurements.
I don't think there is any value in that. The code has been tested with simulated data already. The next step is actual real data from known points, even if that is limited number of points.Is it possible to cheat on the dataset?
The resolution with a gated measurement that has a 200Hz validity starts to get progressively worse below 1K. There is only 5 valid points between the two frequencies. This results in a lot of smoothing. If you want an accurate measurement of the directivity this is not enough.Can you explain how this is an addition compared to gated measurements?
With a bit of space 200Hz is absolutely no problem at all with gated measurements.
Any issues or resonances problems at these lower frequencies can be seen with near-field measurements.
As you say there are ways to check that nothing untoward is hiding in that smoothing. A valid and practical approach.
I want to be able to measure the response and directivity of a speaker accurately across as much of the frequency range as I can, hopefully without spending US 100K or building a full blown robot, or lifting the speaker 10m in the air
That totally depends on the answer to the question how much is even needed?If you want an accurate measurement of the directivity this is not enough.
If you can already predict beforehand that there will be zero issues and problems below 500Hz, why do I need so much more accuracy?
Indeed, I think something near a 15ms window would be enough resolution for me. The equivalent of 1/3 octave smoothing at 200Hz.That totally depends on the answer to the question how much is even needed?
I am not saying that you do. If you are happy with what you have now that's great. Why is it a problem for me to want to do better?If you can already predict beforehand that there will be zero issues and problems below 500Hz, why do I need so much more accuracy?
Not a problem at all!I am not saying that you do. If you are happy with what you have now that's great. Why is it a problem for me to want to do better?
But you're basically saying you're "paying" for convenience!
Nice explanation. I have 14 mics. I used to think that I can do this either USB or analog. Analog is the way to go. I'm convinced enough. Got me thinking! Thanks.It is an explicit requirment for the measurements to be accurately time referenced. The best way to do this is with a dual channel measurement from an analogue microphone. With a good or even average interface ASIO or WDM driver there is no problem capturing this with Windows or any other operating system.
USB mics bring a lot of timimg problems to the table. There are ways around it but I would recommend for the sanity of anyone trying to do this that they leave the USB mic in the drawer.
Honestly, I don't think that it can. As far as I can tell, sound field separation requires a full 3D measurement. This adds a huge complexity and expense for a small gain IMHO. Nice to have sure, but it'd also be nice to have the 100k+ $ to just buy a Klippel machine.I still think Sound Field separation for the 200Hz to 1K region is a worthwhile addition if it can be done without the need for a full blown robot.
What's the purpose of getting as high of a resolution as you can get if it's not needed?why wouldn't you want that data to be as high a resolution as you can get?
Because overkill is never the way to optimize something.why wouldn't you want that data to be as high a resolution as you can get?
Not only that, but why wasting time and effort to something that has zero or very little benefits?Because overkill is never the way to optimize something.
Just getting more information for the hell of it makes zero sense to me.
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