The qts is a bit high but doesn't sound as bad as it looks. Bass sounds tight, if a touch one-note (better than most ported boxes though). IIRC the peak is nearer 1khz in the JPW AP2 and just adds a bit of presence to the midrange. It's a soft cone, so breakup is smooth.
Does anybody know which version of the Vifa D19 is used in the AN-K and Snell K?
I have both the poly version D19TD-27-08 and the fabric version D19TD-05-08. I think the fabric version sounds better, but it could be due to the crossover not being designed for both.
I have both the poly version D19TD-27-08 and the fabric version D19TD-05-08. I think the fabric version sounds better, but it could be due to the crossover not being designed for both.
I think the Snell may have used differing tweeters over the years If you search on ebay you will get some hits for the DT26.
If you look at the AN-K it is definitely 19mm, looking at google images also there are plenty of 19mm ones in Snell K's. Maybe a dedicated Snell website has some more specific details
This would seem a sensible new 19mm,
see: Vifa Peerless D19TD05-08 Tweeter - Willys-Hifi Ltd.
If you look at the AN-K it is definitely 19mm, looking at google images also there are plenty of 19mm ones in Snell K's. Maybe a dedicated Snell website has some more specific details
This would seem a sensible new 19mm,
see: Vifa Peerless D19TD05-08 Tweeter - Willys-Hifi Ltd.
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I'm always a bit dubious about first impressions... It takes a few hours listening to pick out the faults in a speaker, IMO.
Averse as I am to adopting every stray cat that lurches past my doorway, I am severely tempted by my local charity shop's offering of an 8" paper Wharfedale Linton 2 speaker for £30 or about 35 Euros:
The famous 2" purple jellyfish cone tweeter. With a coffee-cup sized and stuffed enclosure.
It has sat there unwanted and unloved for weeks. 😕
Everybody knows that three-way is a better solution.
But compromised two-ways can stretch you into greatness. Like our lovely Paloma Faith:
YouTube
'Enuff said". 🙂
Averse as I am to adopting every stray cat that lurches past my doorway, I am severely tempted by my local charity shop's offering of an 8" paper Wharfedale Linton 2 speaker for £30 or about 35 Euros:
The famous 2" purple jellyfish cone tweeter. With a coffee-cup sized and stuffed enclosure.
It has sat there unwanted and unloved for weeks. 😕
Everybody knows that three-way is a better solution.
But compromised two-ways can stretch you into greatness. Like our lovely Paloma Faith:
YouTube
'Enuff said". 🙂
Same driver line-up as in my Denton 2 speakers which I've mentioned to you before, Steve, in regard to their crossovers.
You'll regard it as sacrilege when I tell you I eventually ripped the crossover out, ran the bass driver full range & filtered the tweeter with 4.4μF worth of capacitance! 😱
Livens up the reproduction of DAB radio no end!
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Ah, looks familiar... 😀
Wharfedale Denton.
Which makes the Wharfedale Shelton XP2 an interesting variation:
The Dentons and Lintons seemed to have 4 element second order crossovers. The Shelton something more complex...
The unloved, homeless puppy in my local shop appears to be something like an Older Super Linton. It has a tweeter like this; Purple Jellyfish.
Putting on shameless Capitalist hat, I could sell the tweeters (£45) for more than the £30 they go for intact! Which is truly the shame of eBay, IMO... 😱
Anyhoo, here's my latest delvings into the whole high Qms woofer experiment. 😎
The Audio Note woofers were very high quality 4 ohm hemp cones, with silver voicecoils and AlNiCo magnets made by SEAS:
Tweeters are double magnet, to the same exotic standard:
All terribly efficient.
Classic monitor designs?
There was a notable debate between Art Dudley with his 8" two way Audio note AN-E Lexus, and Jon Atkinson with his 12" Harbeth 3 way M40.1.
Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signature loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Harbeth M40.1 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
I think it came down to the old big speaker in a small room issue. Not a good idea, IMO. Booms terribly.
Wharfedale Denton.
Which makes the Wharfedale Shelton XP2 an interesting variation:
The Dentons and Lintons seemed to have 4 element second order crossovers. The Shelton something more complex...
The unloved, homeless puppy in my local shop appears to be something like an Older Super Linton. It has a tweeter like this; Purple Jellyfish.
Putting on shameless Capitalist hat, I could sell the tweeters (£45) for more than the £30 they go for intact! Which is truly the shame of eBay, IMO... 😱
Anyhoo, here's my latest delvings into the whole high Qms woofer experiment. 😎
The Audio Note woofers were very high quality 4 ohm hemp cones, with silver voicecoils and AlNiCo magnets made by SEAS:
Tweeters are double magnet, to the same exotic standard:
All terribly efficient.
Classic monitor designs?
There was a notable debate between Art Dudley with his 8" two way Audio note AN-E Lexus, and Jon Atkinson with his 12" Harbeth 3 way M40.1.
Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signature loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Harbeth M40.1 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
I think it came down to the old big speaker in a small room issue. Not a good idea, IMO. Booms terribly.
Sorry for letting this thread be merging over to something more like the "classic monitor design" thread. I hope you guys may have me excused because I haven't read that thread, and I'm not that experienced in speaker building.
Regarding high efficency I build Troels Gravesen's original DTQWT many years ago. I don't have them any more, but it would be fun to hear them again, maybe with the upgraded HMQ woofer.
I have also had a bunch of Klipsch speakers, both from the Reference line and the Heitage line. I remember when I had Cornwall 2 in a relatively small room and I had the guys over for a few beers. With a powerful transistor amp the beer cans and cell phones were moving around on the table when we cranked AC/DC to ear-splitting levels he he...😀
I'm not sure why, but I find great pleasure in well implemented 2 way speakers, there is something about that presentation that gets to me.
I saw Marco's speaker with the Mivoc WM8 and the Monacor HT22/8. That one looked really nice. Now the Mivoc are hard to come buy, but what do you think about the Faital 10FE200? Nice smooth frequency response, better off axis response than many 8 inch hi fi woofers and QMS of a whooping 11,3?
If you could live with 60 litre cabinets and a Q of 0,94, I think they could be a ton of fun for relatively cheap?
Regarding high efficency I build Troels Gravesen's original DTQWT many years ago. I don't have them any more, but it would be fun to hear them again, maybe with the upgraded HMQ woofer.
I have also had a bunch of Klipsch speakers, both from the Reference line and the Heitage line. I remember when I had Cornwall 2 in a relatively small room and I had the guys over for a few beers. With a powerful transistor amp the beer cans and cell phones were moving around on the table when we cranked AC/DC to ear-splitting levels he he...😀
I'm not sure why, but I find great pleasure in well implemented 2 way speakers, there is something about that presentation that gets to me.
I saw Marco's speaker with the Mivoc WM8 and the Monacor HT22/8. That one looked really nice. Now the Mivoc are hard to come buy, but what do you think about the Faital 10FE200? Nice smooth frequency response, better off axis response than many 8 inch hi fi woofers and QMS of a whooping 11,3?
If you could live with 60 litre cabinets and a Q of 0,94, I think they could be a ton of fun for relatively cheap?
Nice find.
60 litre cab is my limit for home use. Maybe even too big. If I had the space and no neighbours it would be fun to try.
60 litre cab is my limit for home use. Maybe even too big. If I had the space and no neighbours it would be fun to try.
I have been enjoying these Yamaha's for a couple of days now. Been playing way to loud way to long. Really nice speakers. Not only me who likes these:
Stereo Impressions: Review: Yamaha NS-s20i Monitor Speakers - Almost Vintage, Still Sounding Fresh
But they are screaming for some upgrades though.
Stereo Impressions: Review: Yamaha NS-s20i Monitor Speakers - Almost Vintage, Still Sounding Fresh
But they are screaming for some upgrades though.
I don't have the woofers for the JPW's so I just popped in the Vifa poly ones from the Yamaha's. Now there can't be much baffle step built into the crossover of the JPW's!
The upside is they are quite dynamic, I don't need to push the volume nob much to get them to sing.
On the ported Yamaha's I had to put a good ol pair of socks and stuff the ports, and still they are a little bit heavy on the bottom in my small room 2,5 feet out from the wall. With the JPW's I have pushed them right up against the wall and even then they are dry on the bottom end.
And the build quality of the JPW's is really nice. I would say they surpass the Snell's I have seen. And miles ahead of the Yamaha NS-s20i.
But the mids are sweet and smooth, but not dull. I am really surpriced by these poly Vifa woofers. Vifa poly woofer and Vifa poly tweeter, what's not to like😀
The upside is they are quite dynamic, I don't need to push the volume nob much to get them to sing.
On the ported Yamaha's I had to put a good ol pair of socks and stuff the ports, and still they are a little bit heavy on the bottom in my small room 2,5 feet out from the wall. With the JPW's I have pushed them right up against the wall and even then they are dry on the bottom end.
And the build quality of the JPW's is really nice. I would say they surpass the Snell's I have seen. And miles ahead of the Yamaha NS-s20i.
But the mids are sweet and smooth, but not dull. I am really surpriced by these poly Vifa woofers. Vifa poly woofer and Vifa poly tweeter, what's not to like😀
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The coil used in the JPW gives full baffle step according to measurements I did years ago. A different woofer will require a new crossover to work in that box with that tweeter and may well need a larger value to achieve full bsc.
The coil in these does not give full bsc. For 8 ohm Vifa's that would be maybe 2,5mH? Just by the looks I would say the coil in these P1's is no more than 1mH, and probably even less.
What's 8ohm got to do with anything? My guess is you've used a calculator to work out bsc rather than measurements.
Just by experience. If you look at my first post you'll some of my Vifa experiments. I found that 1 - 1,2mH for single woofer and 0,82 - 1mH works nice for two paralell woofers.
My big diy Impulse H5 inspired speakers use 1mH series inductor and 10uF shunting cap. That gives around 2000hz crossover and 2db bsc... With two of my Vifa C17 in paralell and 0,82mH series inductor and 19uF shunting cap gives around 2000hz crossover and about 3-4db bsc.
My big diy Impulse H5 inspired speakers use 1mH series inductor and 10uF shunting cap. That gives around 2000hz crossover and 2db bsc... With two of my Vifa C17 in paralell and 0,82mH series inductor and 19uF shunting cap gives around 2000hz crossover and about 3-4db bsc.
You have to be careful with online calculators, because they assume a linear (6 ohm) resistance in the woofer and take no account of baffklestep:
2-Way Crossover Calculator / Designer
It is doable with impedance correction, which for a typical 6R woofer with 20 ohms impedance around 10kHz might be 7.5R plus 15uF shunt. You might then add bafflestep via a 3R resistor and 1mH coil in parallel. This was done in the Rogers LS5/9:
Rogers Loudspeakers › LS5/9, so I'm not making it up! 🙂
It is quite rapid to set up a 56cmX 28cm X 28cm common enclosure in Visaton Boxsim:
Software | Visaton
I'd set up two drivers for convenience and place them on the baffle of the common enclosure. Now import the W200S-8 as bass and give it a suitable closed box or reflkex volume: W 200 S - 8 Ohm | Visaton
Good 3/4" G20SC soft dome:
G 20 SC - 8 Ohm | Visaton
Now design your filter. This is the KEF Celeste 3:
Dissi found the 3kHz filter:
It'll work OK with a bit of level adjust.
There's many ways to skin a cat. Here's an early experiment with a tank notch around 5kHz to reduce breakup:
Good phase alignment and a smooth sound, IIRC:
You really shouldn't need to notch breakup with a polycone, but does no harm. If you look at the 3kHz and 6kHz S-shaped wobbles in the blue phase plot, these are breakup modes. Aka stored energy which shows on the waterfall plot too. Probably the 6kHz one is the most audible. I think you'd call that second harmonic distortion.
2-Way Crossover Calculator / Designer
It is doable with impedance correction, which for a typical 6R woofer with 20 ohms impedance around 10kHz might be 7.5R plus 15uF shunt. You might then add bafflestep via a 3R resistor and 1mH coil in parallel. This was done in the Rogers LS5/9:
Rogers Loudspeakers › LS5/9, so I'm not making it up! 🙂
It is quite rapid to set up a 56cmX 28cm X 28cm common enclosure in Visaton Boxsim:
Software | Visaton
I'd set up two drivers for convenience and place them on the baffle of the common enclosure. Now import the W200S-8 as bass and give it a suitable closed box or reflkex volume: W 200 S - 8 Ohm | Visaton
Good 3/4" G20SC soft dome:
G 20 SC - 8 Ohm | Visaton
Now design your filter. This is the KEF Celeste 3:
Dissi found the 3kHz filter:
It'll work OK with a bit of level adjust.
There's many ways to skin a cat. Here's an early experiment with a tank notch around 5kHz to reduce breakup:
Good phase alignment and a smooth sound, IIRC:
You really shouldn't need to notch breakup with a polycone, but does no harm. If you look at the 3kHz and 6kHz S-shaped wobbles in the blue phase plot, these are breakup modes. Aka stored energy which shows on the waterfall plot too. Probably the 6kHz one is the most audible. I think you'd call that second harmonic distortion.
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Got the crossover parts on saturday, been fooling around and tweaking a bit. Just some crude Yamaha boxes.
Tried the original Vifa P21WO-10-08 woofers and my modified M21WO-28-08. The poly P21 goes a tad deeper, but the midrange on M21 is better and the bass is a bit punchier.
Now for the tweeter. I have two versions of the Vifa D19 05 08, poly and textile.
Now I'm playing with the foam surround M21, textile D19, and Steve's crossover. And it sounds awesome!
Thanks a bunch guys, now I have to make some nice cabinets.
Tried the original Vifa P21WO-10-08 woofers and my modified M21WO-28-08. The poly P21 goes a tad deeper, but the midrange on M21 is better and the bass is a bit punchier.
Now for the tweeter. I have two versions of the Vifa D19 05 08, poly and textile.
Now I'm playing with the foam surround M21, textile D19, and Steve's crossover. And it sounds awesome!
Thanks a bunch guys, now I have to make some nice cabinets.
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The JPW AP3s were my first speakers, bought new 35 years ago. It used the M21 WO, which had a flatter response. Here's the data sheet from 2002.
After the surrounds rotted out, I retrofitted them with P21s, and then eventually D25AGs for tweeters (many many years ago). I agree M21s sound better than P21s.