Of course, there are lots of transient shaper plugins for percussion processing in the digital domain.
There are also digital look-ahead limiters with zero or slightly negative attack times, including the Waves L1 outboard box (it does have to digitize in order to work, however).
Bill, the waveform you provide above fits the industry 'standard' headroom model ie the main program content averages at around -18dB with the transient peaks approaching clip.
The VU meter ballistics standards devised in the 1940's are intended to display speech band (and lower band) moving average level and essentially ignore shorter term transients.
With 'normal' music (as per your example) the -14dB/-16dB/-18dB system reference level model works quite well in the hands of the experienced user and gives useful indication of system remaining headroom (for 1940's typical speech and typical program and still applies for analog systems).
With typical program and the meters hovering around the midpoint (-3dB) the average level is 'in the zone' and conforms to 'standard/normal' perceived level/loudness with little danger of significant or sustained system overloads (broadcast and recording/live gear susually incorporates additional headroom).
With digital this all goes somewhat out of the window with accurate indication of instantaneous peaks.....this enables precise signal 'maximising' to the capabilities of the medium.
With tape there is no defined maximum level, the arbiter of reference level to tape is distortion which is generally agreed to be 3% THD.
Dan.
The VU meter ballistics standards devised in the 1940's are intended to display speech band (and lower band) moving average level and essentially ignore shorter term transients.
With 'normal' music (as per your example) the -14dB/-16dB/-18dB system reference level model works quite well in the hands of the experienced user and gives useful indication of system remaining headroom (for 1940's typical speech and typical program and still applies for analog systems).
With typical program and the meters hovering around the midpoint (-3dB) the average level is 'in the zone' and conforms to 'standard/normal' perceived level/loudness with little danger of significant or sustained system overloads (broadcast and recording/live gear susually incorporates additional headroom).
With digital this all goes somewhat out of the window with accurate indication of instantaneous peaks.....this enables precise signal 'maximising' to the capabilities of the medium.
With tape there is no defined maximum level, the arbiter of reference level to tape is distortion which is generally agreed to be 3% THD.
Dan.
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What was used commonly for peak/ RMS metering for the past 25 years is the Dorroughs 40A and it’s software equivalent. The later versions recorded the number of overs. Calibration pots allowed it to be set for whatever Average and peak levels you needed.
The You Tube link shows the simultaneous display of Peak and RMS values of the signal. EBay has weekly listings for the original hardware version ( usually needing recapping).
YouTube
Waves and Premiere have even more advanced long term averaging displays
Brainworks BX meter goes even farther and more sophisticated
The You Tube link shows the simultaneous display of Peak and RMS values of the signal. EBay has weekly listings for the original hardware version ( usually needing recapping).
YouTube
Waves and Premiere have even more advanced long term averaging displays
Brainworks BX meter goes even farther and more sophisticated
Attachments
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Tryphon recently I asked the question of Bill of what his career is and his motivation/passion/driver for engaging that career.
Instead I got the answer that his wife and daughters are his passion....he is surrounded by women (and it shows).
That and evasion of answering as you got.
So Bill, for interest's sake what is your current job, and what other experience do you have (polite question) ?.
Dan.
When I said 'no way', I was talking about using the "euphonics" of the magnetic tape.
I had a digital machine that was recording a little before you press the button.
In fact it was recording in continuous in a fifo. And draw the fifo in the media when the button was pressed, editing the input point after the fifo "margin" that you could recover in editing if necessary.
But i cannot see how you can limit a 'direct signal' with a "slightly negative attack time" to protect a signal from clipping.
Of course, once digitized and recorded, you can process things as you like, because you know when, where and how much, if it is what you mean ?
Oh thanks. I was trying to recover this name "on the tip of my tongue" with no success.
They were expensive and quite cheap looking, yes.
Waves L1 is the name of a software look-ahead limiter. It introduces a digital delay so that a signal requiring limiting can start to be attenuated a few milliseconds before limiting is actually needed, thus allowing a smooth transition into limiting. Hence, the designation "look-ahead" is used to describe it and similar limiters.
The original Waves L1 was available as a hardware box with A/D and D/A converters inside. It ran the Waves L1 look-ahead limiter algorithm in software. While it could digitize and briefly delay, it was not equipped with enough memory for recording.
While it could not protect itself from clipping at the input, it could protect downstream devices. Presumably, any limiter could be overloaded and clip if driven hard enough.
Maybe this will help clarify: https://www.telosalliance.com/image...ok-ahed-processing-frank-foti-july-3-2000.pdf
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for the explanations, they were helpful.
When I was doing studio work, the smaller studios mostly sat on 0db = +4 dBm as John said. That was the same for the outboard gear. We were making the switch to dBu when I got out. Most people already ignored the impedance component of the dBm spec by then.
-Chris Merry Christmas everyone!
Thanks for the explanations, they were helpful.
When I was doing studio work, the smaller studios mostly sat on 0db = +4 dBm as John said. That was the same for the outboard gear. We were making the switch to dBu when I got out. Most people already ignored the impedance component of the dBm spec by then.
-Chris Merry Christmas everyone!
I don't see that. Neither does the DRM plugin, which returns -24dBFS RMS. It requires a good heave round of the volume control to match most other recordings. I would appreciate if you could explain where you get the -18 from.
Yup, cooking xmas dinner for the brood at the moment. You can't spend job satifisfaction. Another 3 years and the first 3 will have left uni and I can decide what I want to do when I grow up🙂.
I'm an engineer by education, a telecoms type by employment and currently working on UK Critical National Infrastructure. Big complex stuff and lets me get home in time to bath the nippers (2 and 6 months) having cycled rather than been stuck in traffic. Life is good.
Merry Xmas to all what whatever $DEITY you follow. 50% Hindus round the table today.
Ok, as i imagined. The problem with the digital delay is you need to equip with the same limiter all the inputs of your mixing desk that you use in the same time, if you don't want to enter into phase or delays problems ?
In recording studios used for "dubbing" movies, is is an habit to use two mikes to record the voices of the actors. One close, one at the other side of the studio. Some can add a delay to the closest mic in order to compensate-it for the distance: both in precise phase. Like this, you can sculpt the subjective distance of the voice and room size just by balancing more or less the two mikes according to the scene without this "halo" you can have with the echo due to the distance between the mikes.
Modern DAWs all have plugin delay compensation, so no phase problems from that. For desk inputs there is already plenty of headroom, so limiters not really needed there. Mostly limiters are designed for mastering, to get loudness up. They may be used for other purposes as well, such as to tame a bass player's poorly controlled dynamics.
This type of thing is done for many reasons, in some genres it is done with drums and the room mic is "crushed" with a heavy compression. There is a nice little all-pass filter phase shifter box people find often sounds good for use in mixing sound from mics at different distances: Little Labs
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The main passage peaks are averaging around -18, with the transient peaks approaching clip.
I am talking peak levels so of course the RMS level indication will be different.
This is pretty 'open/natural' recording with significant transient 'peaking' and scaled to fit the medium, and consequently the average level is relatively low WRT strongly 'processed' (many/most modern) recordings as you relate.
The world is already over populated, best you find another hobby.
Ok, it sounds like you are more involved in system engineering/administration than board level development ?.
I started out in Telecoms and once qualified switched to audio which since childhood has been my fascination/interest/passion/livelihood/study...win/win.
Like a bunch around here who have spent their lives eating/breathing/living audio in all it's forms, I cannot expect you to have the grasp and experience that comes from this kind of life application.
The likes of JC, Ed Simon, Richard Marsh, Nelson Pass, myself and a heap more that I have left out obviously have passion at their cores and are driven by striving and advancement in audio engineering.
Bill, theory and engineering directly explains most disciplines, but in audio there are 'grey' areas....I am doing my bit in exploring these 'curious' bits and providing 'cures' and hopefully in due time I can provide sensible explanations.
So why did you study electronics engineering ?.
I believe to not believe in any fixed belief system, my choice.
Dan.
This doesn't fit with my experience across the thousands of CDs and LPs I have. Looking at the waveforms I posted the RMS level looks well below -18dBFS and the DR plugin concurs measuring -24dBFS RMS. I would appreciate any examples you have for comparison as I would hate to think this is an outlier. Now if you believe the DRM plugin this RLJ track has a higher 'DR' than any of the sheffield lab DD recordings that John likes.
For example the much demo'd and musically bereft track record
Analyzed: Various / The Sheffield Track Record (Vinyl) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Track --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR17 -2.48 dB -22.14 dB 4:16 A1-Amuseum
DR17 -0.30 dB -21.06 dB 4:06 A2-The Higher You Rise
DR16 -0.30 dB -20.63 dB 4:06 B1-Wise To The Lines
DR16 -0.90 dB -21.74 dB 3:39 B2-Le Ballade
Is that really one of your beliefs? And do you believe the world is over populated?
😉. !!!!
Enjoy the birthday party day off.
BTY putting me up there with JC I understand, everyone insults him here. But RNM and NP! Is that another mistaken belief?
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@ JC, & WaltzingBear, ED anatech:
I grasp what you are saying and kind of understand it.
Don't we need to understand there is a difference between what happens live, in studio, in broadcasting, mixing down, and in for lack of a better word, post production/finishing, mastering, etc.
Who ever was the Tech Director, tried never to let the VU go over 0VU. And if that was +4db then that means more than 2x the power and in the solid state world some nasty clipping. As I used to understand it.
Now in the digital world, do we finally have better stuff that won't clip as nastily as analog solid state, early solid state, early digital solid state? I guess we are now in the late digital solid state era?
Also each type of program, format, etc is different, they have different requirements too.
Having worked in the various industries...theatre, live broadcast, national events, live Sports, industrial Video, and so on and so on, they are all different.
Everyman, don't get your panties in a wad!
We don't wear them.
Ask, just ask the tech or whomever your working with how they want it done and share experience, skill, knowledge to make a better product in the end.
Heck, there was a minor to do deal with a question, questions I asked over here. LINK
And last year y'all were debating about DC servos and now I need to understand how to fix and amp that won't switch on. HERE.
and
I can't find Ed's post about where to find the -3dB down point when trying to dial in a system? Was it walking back from the 1 meter point in front of the speaker?
Or walked up from the way back until ? (not sure). But I recall you discussing it and I didn't mark it or write it down.
Now I've got to go trim and cut up about 2 lbs of a chuck rump roast for the chili I'm making, then toss it in an Iron pan with onions until they are caramelized before the final immersion into the big chili pot. Combining it with the three beans and other secret ingredients in to the chili.
"Eye of knute, wart of toad" comes to mind.
Poor ol one eye, never was much of a player cause he had no 3D perception...but he was one hell of a coach.
Cheers Gentlemen,
May your Christmas' be joyful.
I grasp what you are saying and kind of understand it.
Don't we need to understand there is a difference between what happens live, in studio, in broadcasting, mixing down, and in for lack of a better word, post production/finishing, mastering, etc.
Who ever was the Tech Director, tried never to let the VU go over 0VU. And if that was +4db then that means more than 2x the power and in the solid state world some nasty clipping. As I used to understand it.
Now in the digital world, do we finally have better stuff that won't clip as nastily as analog solid state, early solid state, early digital solid state? I guess we are now in the late digital solid state era?
Also each type of program, format, etc is different, they have different requirements too.
Having worked in the various industries...theatre, live broadcast, national events, live Sports, industrial Video, and so on and so on, they are all different.
Everyman, don't get your panties in a wad!
We don't wear them.
Ask, just ask the tech or whomever your working with how they want it done and share experience, skill, knowledge to make a better product in the end.
Heck, there was a minor to do deal with a question, questions I asked over here. LINK
And last year y'all were debating about DC servos and now I need to understand how to fix and amp that won't switch on. HERE.
and
I can't find Ed's post about where to find the -3dB down point when trying to dial in a system? Was it walking back from the 1 meter point in front of the speaker?
Or walked up from the way back until ? (not sure). But I recall you discussing it and I didn't mark it or write it down.
Now I've got to go trim and cut up about 2 lbs of a chuck rump roast for the chili I'm making, then toss it in an Iron pan with onions until they are caramelized before the final immersion into the big chili pot. Combining it with the three beans and other secret ingredients in to the chili.
"Eye of knute, wart of toad" comes to mind.
Poor ol one eye, never was much of a player cause he had no 3D perception...but he was one hell of a coach.
Cheers Gentlemen,
May your Christmas' be joyful.
Start at the back of the room and move forward. When the SLM level increases by 3 dB you are at the critical distance.
🙂 😎
I had to apply a compressor/limiter to a bass player .... after many takes, he never could do the tune the same or even close to the same take after take re.dynamics.
Acoustics: Critical Distance
-RM
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Yes, there are facts and there are beliefs....I choose the former 😉.
I read it on the internet, it must be true 😉.
Every day is a party and to be celebrated 😉....and I don't mean imbibements, I mean the wonderment of life universe and everything.
When generalised theory doesn't fully add up to observations things get interesting 😉.
No mistake, credit where credit is due, you are doing fine stuff and selflessly share, this puts you in the list.
Enjoy your xmas break fellows
.Dan.
Concerns over a little clipping, bits, etc, seem entirely pointless when this elephant is cosmic in scale and stomping all over everyone...
Solve this, why the mic can't seem to pick up what we hear.
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