Unfortunately that is not the definition of a transient. It is the fact that people use this term wrong - in context - that makes for so much disagreement.
A transient is just something that occurs and then goes away. In physics it is the part of the response signal that dampens out leaving only the steady-state.
What you are implying in your post is true. Bass frequencies have such long and low "transients" that they are hardly detectable and that what people think of as transients are the signals attack/rise time, which is the combination of all frequencies, but is subjectively dominated by HFs.
Is it? I thought "a transient response is the response of a system to a change from an equilibrium or a steady state. The transient response is not necessarily tied to abrupt events but to any event that affects the equilibrium of the system." was pretty straight forward.... Maybe look up the word Equilibrium.
What was in your head and what came out into words were confusing, you removed or edited the post that sparked it off but these remain
camplo said:
Good start
Backflip or mistake
Contradictory
In reality your "definition" was closer to right than usual, which is why I asked you a question to try and clarify it. Without high frequencies no change will be abrupt but that doesn't stop it being transient.
What are you pointing at here? These are specifically for transducer testing. The largest one that the manufacturer make still isn’t close to large enough to do a horn that loads down to 300 Hz.
If you’re trying to say that anechoic chambers aren’t needed that isn’t strictly true. They have purposes far beyond speaker design. In fact, the one I’ve spent most time working in makes a tiny percentage of its cash earnings from speakers. Single digits, even.
Either way, anechoic measurements are still the goal *for the purposes of design*. There are several ways to get there depending on the goal, budget, equipment and time available. The Klippel Near Field Scanner is more versatile and much less expensive than even a hemi-anechoic. A field is cheaper than both, and more readily available. Just watch out for wind. And traffic. And birds. And rain...
I'll comment on the "DIY balloon" stuff using interpolation from the last page, when I'm back at my PC 🙂 it's not a simple subject!
Abrupt is relative to frequency, in the same way burst decay is normalized....I guess you are looking to the point that it doesn't have to be abrupt...I accept that but it would seem that the effects of distortions effecting transient startup would be lessen with a longer attack envelope...
What sparked this conversation was the lack of knowledge to recognize what a transient can be
To further my point of the relative nature of "abrupt".....it is not there....then it is....off to on is an extreme polar opposite...abrupt
What sparked this conversation was the lack of knowledge to recognize what a transient can be
To further my point of the relative nature of "abrupt".....it is not there....then it is....off to on is an extreme polar opposite...abrupt
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You can't use a term that has an ordinary definition of short, sharp, quick etc. and apply it to low frequencies. They can be none of those things due to the time periods of the frequencies involved.
Transient also has an ordinary meaning, temporary, short lived etc. Something that does not stay the same.
The distortion of the attack envelope as you put it is the argument for linear phase, zero group delay, infinite bandwidth. In that case what goes in is what comes out.
As the audio samples I made earlier showed, the attack envelope can be completely mangled and yet it does not have anywhere near the effect on the sound that the visual of the waveform would suggest it does. I'm not saying that it isn't audible or desirable to avoid but it ranks quite low in the scale of audible defects a speaker can have.
Transient also has an ordinary meaning, temporary, short lived etc. Something that does not stay the same.
The distortion of the attack envelope as you put it is the argument for linear phase, zero group delay, infinite bandwidth. In that case what goes in is what comes out.
As the audio samples I made earlier showed, the attack envelope can be completely mangled and yet it does not have anywhere near the effect on the sound that the visual of the waveform would suggest it does. I'm not saying that it isn't audible or desirable to avoid but it ranks quite low in the scale of audible defects a speaker can have.
My analogy of off to on being an "abrupt" change is the epitome of the reason why a transient event can be as vast as we just discovered. Also the musical use of the words help to keep ambiguity alive....we had the same issue with F/Cutoff...
I started that convo as well 😉
I started that convo as well 😉
Agreed 100%
I've made my own definition up. It is to camplo something. It's similar to mark's University course outline but I was able to distill it down.
What you do is to use a term that has a defined meaning (to most people with some knowledge in audio) take it out of context, apply it to another already defined problem and generate a huge amount of discussion only to come back full circle and say that is what you meant from the start 😉
As much as camploing grates on me, during all of the discussion a lot of useful information and excellent descriptions come out from other participants.
Fluid - I'll stick to more grounded material, but thanks =)
This was the other time, Gedlee was able to translate my, dictionary derived terminology, and dynamic philosophical constructs that seems to elude others....
Eludes others but never seems to elude the ones that count the most...thats important...its a connection lol
- feel free to use the dictionary to find more "camplo" terminology lol I like how Gedlee is very technical as well. Its evidenced that he hasn't just memorized the information, he actually understands it.
This was the other time, Gedlee was able to translate my, dictionary derived terminology, and dynamic philosophical constructs that seems to elude others....
Eludes others but never seems to elude the ones that count the most...thats important...its a connection lol
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- Something I have been purposely social engineering over the 2.5 years.....you'll tell me I made that up too....and I'll say yes, I created this thread
Indeed Earl is a true great
You are very fortunate that someone like Earl takes the time to try and interpret your philosophical constructs
I hope it wasn't meant to be a secret, there must be a term missing from your algorithm though because it only works in this thread and not the other ones you have created. The line between genius and madness is quite thin sometimes 🙂
Agreed to all points...This thread represents a very important aspect of Sound Design....Several of my other threads here are pivotal, to me, but not so much to everyone else...though the topic of most of those other threads can be found discussed here....If I say I didn't have some of the largest and most controversial threads on other forums and fb groups...that would be a lie. This ain't my first rodeo, truly I am just a Muse...You and the people of this Forum are what make this thread special and as informative as it is...I am just glad that you all entertain my "madness" and allow the genius to shine through, which is the detailed information that I try to inspire. Because my intentions are pure; basically the pursuit of grave understanding, even for those of us who are less technically or mathematically inclined, via the excellent discussion that can be found through out this thread.
Does it really though?
I think I should relook at the site....My minds first thought, "oh, this is a place to put the microphone to project it from the reflections of the room. In hindsight, this wouldn't work.... would it? I imagine the opening would hurt the sound in some way?
What's interesting is that, the harmonic character can be dynamic over multiple cycles. As per our discussion earlier on Group Delay, the amplitude envelope/domain of the carrier wave/fundamental, can be distorted as well, something not highlighted in the wiki example you referred to.