It most probably won't be as easy to get them to do all that hard work over again, if they do not trust you will see it trough in building an actual horn?
They've spend an awful lot of time to create something based on your wish list. While you may regard the horns you work with now to be more of a reference, their creation might well surpass it (*), not building it means we'll never know.
(*) seeing the work they had done with simulation tools etc.
The (commercial) 3D printed horns (like Marcel (Mabat) did, the sand horns) will have fine enough tolerances for final use. I personally don't see any real future in filament printed horns, save for some rapid prototyping. Or for tooling to create horns with different materials. We've seen some samples of that too. If motivated enough we, as DIY, can do a lot!
He got exactly those hors that fulfilled his goals. Then he changed his goals. It is simply not possible to make a horn that loads such low with wide dispersion with the dimensions he requested.
But to be honest the Jericho even some longer would represent a very good fog horn at the coast
But to be honest the Jericho even some longer would represent a very good fog horn at the coast
He got exactly those hors that fulfilled his goals. Then he changed his goals. It is simply not possible to make a horn that loads such low with wide dispersion with the dimensions he requested.
But to be honest the Jericho even some longer would represent a very good fog horn at the coast
Do you mean what I initially requested? like trying to crossover at 300hz using a 150hz horn? Truncated horn at that...lol. Well I also have "no idea" what I am doing in a sense... being that it is my first time dealing with such issues, so I get to make all sorts of mistakes, learn and move on from them
Another aspect that I pushed, that wasn't so grain worthy, was the idea of crossing over closer to the fundamental of a horn, selectively...which from my personal view, the technically correct way (say 1.5Fc) makes sound sense but obviously at some point becomes annulled because = waveguide....
No one is avoiding the "fundamental" of waveguides... bandwidth ends when the driver starts to perform badly, period....so with a driver like the Axi and a horn with a small/high enough fundamental (I hypothesized 350hz and higher) I suspected to be able to cross lower than technically correct, low enough to merit gains on dispersion....judging by the spectral decay....the performance of my horn at 350hz...on a 350hz tuned horn....is better than the majority of mid ranges you can buy for money right now, if you respect the SQ provided by the directivity of a good horn.... basically I feel like a small horns (waveguide) "sloppy mess" (ie performance around the fundamental) sounds better than a lot of dynamic drivers, which is supported by the almost identical spectral decay of the ATC sm-75-150s which is my idea of a holy grail midrange product. So that is said in complete neglect of the group delay road bump at tuning but people build BR subs everyday (ba dum tisss).......I'm sure theres a way to make the best out of whatever bad situation that may endure...the tighter GD of my mid (AE15m) only makes things better there....but I'm not crossing on the fundamental... I intend to cross at 400hz....
I think this started with wanting a smaller horn to widen dispersion...I sat down with a tone generator along with my current system and tried to get my impression of how high of a note I perceived my 15" covering before handing it over to this horn/cd combo...as seen in previous diaries involving the Axi, crossing at 300hz vs 400hz provide a different experience....theres 2 other unicorn type, well received designs also crossing at 400hz...(strauss and x1 uniwave)....I then modelled a 350hz tractrix horn in hornresp and checked out the polar map around 16khz (can't hear much past that these days)and down 2-3db....turns into ~ 15 degree beam width (not 15 plus/minus like I said above sorry)....which at 1 meter turns into a sweetspot the size of a basketball aka 9inch diameter circle...my head is the size of basketball...not literally but generally a human head takes up the same amount of functional space...for the experience and intent of this system, everything lives in the on axis sweet spot...I could have a 1" dome tweeter and I'm still going to "head in vice" it on purpose (when sitting in front of a computer playing a first person shooter how much bobbing and weaving does one really do with their head? non...where are you going to move too sitting 3 ft away from your stereo anyway).......thats my personal approach to applied theory for sound design intentions anyway. Jump down to 7000hz and the polar is down 2-3db at a sweet spot (beamwidth) the size of a 15"....for a person already exercising my approach I'd have to waiver back n forth in my computer chair, severely, like I had turrets... to leave that sweet spot ....from there it obviously gets bigger....and this is all at 36inches..... the other side of that coin is the idea that if I'm going to ride the slippery slope of the fundamental, I may limit myself dynamically....I ran into 7% distortion at fs(215hz)(how the fk is fs 215 btw?) at 91db....300hz and up were at like 130db and climbing(omg why is it soooo loud)....this is all at 36inches stillIs it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?...
Running test tones vs white noise....I can't stand white noise at 118db measured at the mouth....so my 115db at 1 meter goal that I strived for is so much over kill...but I made it...1 meter still has enough headroom to flatten the curve out at and cross at 300hz if I chose.....and play over 115db at 1 meter....which is just dumb loud.......so that means that I have enough excursion to play lower than 300hz with a 350hz tractrix horn.... No one at the beginning of this knew up from down in terms how much extension a horn and cd could have...I few speculated correctly....I forget who but someone show'd up with a ton of measurements finally proving that even normal large format compression drivers have enough output to play lower the....in short...even my readings for finding xmax at 215hz and 95db(1 meter) could be shy, I was holding the mic and kids where playing in the back ground, that should raise distortion? I just ran a another sweep came across as 123db at the mouth, reading 98 at my ear and its too loud...like for music, that would of been too loud...120db listening to music is so different than 120db a test tone....according to my hornresp Axi mockup I can play 105db and excursion is 9.7mm.....on a 350hz tractrix horn that doesn't model as low as my e-tractrix plays in real life for some reason.....so with that being said....If hornresp says I can hit 105db at 1 meter....with 0 crossover on a 350hz horn......how loud would that be if it were white noise or music?
So just did this...played white noise, brung up levels until it got uncomfortable....then ran linear sweep from 200hz-up (400hz 24db xo)......measured at mouth 81db peak....
Axi doesn't "need" a crossover with a large enough horn, sounds like....explains what I heard a week ago trying to get my eq set up....the damn thing was playing sub bass...which I heard in the form of intermodulation distortion....So the next interesting thing would be to verify xmax again without an xo...but its a side note...club volume is 115db....thats a full spectrum measurement....the Axi covering 400-20khz is never going to play that loud. 123db at 1 inch is 81db at 10 ft...thats just one Axi, able to play a sweep at 120db (measured at mouth) when I can reach near 140db (at mouth)....one axi is too loud at 10ft within xmax.....covering 400 and up.... Because I started off approaching measure with wrong idea, I have a low pass shelf with like a -10db sitting at 4.56khz....the response at 1 meter is a little bass shy so I'll have to redesign that filter, but its looking like minimal filter to get this thing to play pretty linear from the jump.
So a 115db listening session....whether 3ft or 10ft....the axi has enough to cover the actual spl for its covered (400 and up) spectrum....to be apart of a 115db full spectrum measuring listening experience (within XMAX)....which is still too loud....!!!! This is a view from one channels worth of drivers.... it seems to me that my theoretical approach is playing out in reality to my predictions.
So anyway....
of course can't see above 10khz.....
The horn profile isn't very different from the profile that we created together that Don K finished
My thinking is that this horn (or any horn you guys develop!!!) as a ~300hz-350hz is going to be an improvement....over the e-tractrix...but I don't even know what the heck I have in full disclosure...
the hornresp is a my 350hz tractrix model....
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For sure....the profile that Don K did a round over for (pictured above), is "finished"...once a given profile is set, is it a lot of work to scale it bigger or smaller? There is no modelling of mounting plate but I think I could maybe do that part? Then theres the other horn profiles Docali showed me that appeared to have better performance.... What do Docali and Don K say now? I am in the position to pay for fabrication but I have moved past the 170hz tuning....or have I.....the polar on this horn, if it is as big as I remember ( i dont) is really good....This profile tuned to say 300hz...don;t yo uthink its dispersion up top would be even better?
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Please resize your pictures if you include them in a post. About 900-1200 pixels wide would do. Now it's hard to read the above post with those big pictures.
I guess the worst thing one can do to learn is not building anything.
At one point you've had all the experts of both Horns and Waveguides riding along in this thread. But you were the one driving the impossible requests. Sometimes it's smarter to listen to the experienced? Take a route and follow it?
There were basically two roads presented. You did make a guess at one point, but also compromises. Which ended up in a horn shape that maybe not that many believed would do you any good. You were the driving factor in that quest.
There has also been a lot of examples of possible setups. A lot of suggestions by proud owners that believe in their own setup, not to mention all of the material Ro808 showcased.
Maybe your quest was a bit over the top. Especially if bound to a certain size to get it.
Do you even know where you want to be headed next? I think all of us were a bit surprised to see the above wood horn you had ordered.... maybe even a little disappointed...
Sometimes it's better to have a plan and stick with it...
I guess the worst thing one can do to learn is not building anything.
At one point you've had all the experts of both Horns and Waveguides riding along in this thread. But you were the one driving the impossible requests. Sometimes it's smarter to listen to the experienced? Take a route and follow it?
There were basically two roads presented. You did make a guess at one point, but also compromises. Which ended up in a horn shape that maybe not that many believed would do you any good. You were the driving factor in that quest.
There has also been a lot of examples of possible setups. A lot of suggestions by proud owners that believe in their own setup, not to mention all of the material Ro808 showcased.
Maybe your quest was a bit over the top. Especially if bound to a certain size to get it.
Do you even know where you want to be headed next? I think all of us were a bit surprised to see the above wood horn you had ordered.... maybe even a little disappointed...
Sometimes it's better to have a plan and stick with it...
Welt....here we are then aye....If we back track, I said that I wanted to cross a horn over at 200hz...then I theorized that horns that are generally around the 350hz tuning should be my limitation on top end dispersion....and forced my band on the cross over....
I theorized that I could likely cross the Axi over at 400hz with a 350hz horn....so far all signs say yes, but I'm not going to conclude on it until I have the system in configuration and run its courses....I theorized this by my lonesome and so far things are looking up...its at least within the Axi's ability dynamically...its acceptable of the horn via spectral decay... say what you will about the bump in GD at tuning.....still need to hear everything together to judge probably....
The first thing I did upon the horns arrival and after getting sound going...I played Billy Joel - The longest time..... the natural voicing of this setup renders near flat at 1m... (now I know that) so my first thought was why does it sound so neutral/transparent?....sounds like beryllium....first 2 thoughts within 30 seconds.....within the next minute I stood over the horn and pointed my ear at it, and moved left right searching for the obvious....this was high on the priority list because of all the neigh saying about a diminishing polar on top end of large salmon family horns...Smooth polar transition > size of sweet spot....I can say that much.
5460(2/19.05)
= 573.22834645669291338583.....winning this battle...
CTC is 13.9764 from mid to horn at this point....
13550/400/3
= 11.29166666666666666667
What am I going to do? this horn is 11-10inches tall, I can't get it any closer.....
So theres that stuff....
Docali whats the best profile to keep ctc low and load to at least where this e-tractrix loads too?
I theorized that I could likely cross the Axi over at 400hz with a 350hz horn....so far all signs say yes, but I'm not going to conclude on it until I have the system in configuration and run its courses....I theorized this by my lonesome and so far things are looking up...its at least within the Axi's ability dynamically...its acceptable of the horn via spectral decay... say what you will about the bump in GD at tuning.....still need to hear everything together to judge probably....
The first thing I did upon the horns arrival and after getting sound going...I played Billy Joel - The longest time..... the natural voicing of this setup renders near flat at 1m... (now I know that) so my first thought was why does it sound so neutral/transparent?....sounds like beryllium....first 2 thoughts within 30 seconds.....within the next minute I stood over the horn and pointed my ear at it, and moved left right searching for the obvious....this was high on the priority list because of all the neigh saying about a diminishing polar on top end of large salmon family horns...Smooth polar transition > size of sweet spot....I can say that much.
5460(2/19.05)
= 573.22834645669291338583.....winning this battle...
CTC is 13.9764 from mid to horn at this point....
13550/400/3
= 11.29166666666666666667
What am I going to do? this horn is 11-10inches tall, I can't get it any closer.....
So theres that stuff....
Docali whats the best profile to keep ctc low and load to at least where this e-tractrix loads too?
Please resize your pictures if you include them in a post. About 900-1200 pixels wide would do. Now it's hard to read the above post with those big pictures.
I guess the worst thing one can do to learn is not building anything.
At one point you've had all the experts of both Horns and Waveguides riding along in this thread. But you were the one driving the impossible requests. Sometimes it's smarter to listen to the experienced? Take a route and follow it?
There were basically two roads presented. You did make a guess at one point, but also compromises. Which ended up in a horn shape that maybe not that many believed would do you any good. You were the driving factor in that quest.
There has also been a lot of examples of possible setups. A lot of suggestions by proud owners that believe in their own setup, not to mention all of the material Ro808 showcased.
Maybe your quest was a bit over the top. Especially if bound to a certain size to get it.
Do you even know where you want to be headed next? I think all of us were a bit surprised to see the above wood horn you had ordered.... maybe even a little disappointed...
Sometimes it's better to have a plan and stick with it...
Can you elaborate.... ....Yes Docali can design a better horn and if hes still working with me its going to be awesome to see it in real life....but what inspired you to say the above when all I've said so far is how amazing the Axi sounds.....
what? lol! That makes no sense, you said all that other stuff because I didn't use the one of several horns they designed.....yet? Can you be technically correct like saying "you did not use, one of the horns, these guys, voluntarily, designed, for you...yet" lol.....I don't get it.
- what does this have to do with anything? yeah Ro808 helped me figure out how to cross as low as possible with a compression driver ( and that one guy who showed up at the end with all teh measurements he took, searching for his xmax and what not...was it you? lol).... I am so confused lol!. Did you not see the spectral cumulative decay measurements? Whos got driver measurements like that lets see um...My CTC spacing is still good enough for nearfield....my crossover point for a 15" woofer is under a 2KA which is very good for nearfield....and then potentially with a custom horn designed from the board...those results are yet improvable? Explain where did I go wrong?
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My plans haven't exactly wavered....I'm building a reference, nearfield, high efficiency system with a horn tweeter and sealed enclosures...outside of aiming at 2 ways, and landing in the best place....a 2 way siting on a pair of subs, calling it that, if only to differentiate where crossovers are.... This is the plan. I definitely will stick to it....unless something better comes along
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Don't get all defensive, no need for that...
I'm just saying what I'm saying because I kinda felt bad that these guys put in that much work and you drifted from it and went in an entirely different direction. Yes, it was voluntarily work, but I'm guessing they expected you'd do something with it, even if it would have been a rough printed prototype or whatever. Any idea how much time they invested in that? Don't think of how you feel, put on the other shoe and figure out how that would have felt for you.
No, I haven't shown you anything from me on this thread. I've only answered a couple of PM's from you in all honesty, wondering why I got them.
Now take it easy, breathe... and figure out what it is you want. I only bring up the many examples that have been brought up in this thread as there's bound to be something in that large varying collection that would have fitted your needs.
I'm just saying what I'm saying because I kinda felt bad that these guys put in that much work and you drifted from it and went in an entirely different direction. Yes, it was voluntarily work, but I'm guessing they expected you'd do something with it, even if it would have been a rough printed prototype or whatever. Any idea how much time they invested in that? Don't think of how you feel, put on the other shoe and figure out how that would have felt for you.
No, I haven't shown you anything from me on this thread. I've only answered a couple of PM's from you in all honesty, wondering why I got them.
Now take it easy, breathe... and figure out what it is you want. I only bring up the many examples that have been brought up in this thread as there's bound to be something in that large varying collection that would have fitted your needs.
You obviously don't do much design, let alone, a lot of design, for other people....its a game of patience and letting go of egos...when designing things, plans change all the time, its just what happens...I've got a jbl 2451 and matching jmlc to prove it...I've spent a whole day mixing and mastering a song for a cousin (free) for it to not be well received...because I love music and sound design and perfecting my craft etc etc......Docali and Don K actually enjoy designing horns and likely the challenge of approaching an unique challenge....you said that quite passionately as if they took time to learn how to design horns..... for me....lmao, no buddy they already know how to do it. The time spent working on this project is a gift...to me. I was and still am so thankful to them for their passion, I think they like helping me because I'm not going hardcore constant directivity and waveguide city....more of a traditional approach maybe? They seem to be connoisseurs of these types of things and if we can meet eye to eye we'll get to see what their many hours of research and wisdom can do, in the form of a horn.
- strangest statement yet, but if you, now, coach people, you must think this is some type of prowess of psych ability? lol
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You know what? You're absolutely right. I've only been a professional designer for 25 years of my life. I can't know stuff like that. lol
On the other counts? Maybe ask them how they see it. I won't speak for them.
You do read a lot into my words. Still worked up, not even getting what it is I was saying. Never mind.
Just forget about it.... let it go... Read this again after an hour or two.
On the other counts? Maybe ask them how they see it. I won't speak for them.
You do read a lot into my words. Still worked up, not even getting what it is I was saying. Never mind.
Just forget about it.... let it go... Read this again after an hour or two.
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- this type of thing is off putting. Why would you say you won't speak for them.... when are obviously trying really hard to do so? I didn't want to be rude, but you said it for me, stay in your lane, and let them speak for themselves....
If you were a designer for 25 years....and no one ever turned down one of your designs, maybe I should have you design my horns lol! After your design got turned down, did you cry and say but I worked sooo long....lmao just stop its too funny
Docali literally makes fun of the horns I had him design....and you think I should fabricate the horn that Docali doesn't want me to build....lmao!
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