I agree with you on the crossover in the nearfield………this is the one and only argument that fans of fullrange systems get to make. If you have to beat the drivers into submission with more components, there’s going to be the audible effects of phase aberrations.
You say your hearing is good to 15k so I didn’t include AMTs in the mix…..they’re all down 8-10db by the time 15k comes around. That’s the air in the presentation. Some engineers push that during the mastering phase while others don’t.….it’s another variable in the playback experience that people don’t take into account……this speaker played this song great while it didn’t do a great job on that song…..all utter nonsense……its an incorrect assumption about the consistency of professional recordings where none exists.
Domes and ribbons can do 15-20k with accuracy and smoothness…..there’s no getting around that reality. more on that
You say your hearing is good to 15k so I didn’t include AMTs in the mix…..they’re all down 8-10db by the time 15k comes around. That’s the air in the presentation. Some engineers push that during the mastering phase while others don’t.….it’s another variable in the playback experience that people don’t take into account……this speaker played this song great while it didn’t do a great job on that song…..all utter nonsense……its an incorrect assumption about the consistency of professional recordings where none exists.
Domes and ribbons can do 15-20k with accuracy and smoothness…..there’s no getting around that reality. more on that
Ribbons excel from 3.5khz and up but their physical size presents a challenge to properly sum in the nearfield…….at 3 meters you‘re going to hear the separation of the driver where a ribbon is crossed to a dynamic driver…..for me, that’s a compromise I would not make.
Domes aren’t as good as ribbons up high…..but they’re certainly good enough! Lol. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water on this topic. Lol
I mentioned to you earlier that you ‘could’ use a very robust large dome tweeter in the nearfield down to a 1khz crossover and I still believe that’s your absolute best option. Both Scanspeak and SB have some domes that can do this…..you’re just not going to be able to push it to plus 90db dynamic peaks…..you’re not gonna damage them but they are gonna tell you they’re not happy. You have to consider this of you choose this path….there’s no repurposing this speaker down the road without a complete tear down.
Domes aren’t as good as ribbons up high…..but they’re certainly good enough! Lol. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water on this topic. Lol
I mentioned to you earlier that you ‘could’ use a very robust large dome tweeter in the nearfield down to a 1khz crossover and I still believe that’s your absolute best option. Both Scanspeak and SB have some domes that can do this…..you’re just not going to be able to push it to plus 90db dynamic peaks…..you’re not gonna damage them but they are gonna tell you they’re not happy. You have to consider this of you choose this path….there’s no repurposing this speaker down the road without a complete tear down.
That little 2” Peerless woofer is IMO your best option. With a 2nd order high pass at 500hz or so it will be crystal clear on axis out to the limits of your hearing. It will resolve the finest detail and since it’s not moving much air, it will be fast to react to dynamic content….that’s a lot of motor strength for such a small cone area. There’s absolutely nothing in the response curve to suggest any shouting or breakup…..it’s remarkable for a near field driver really. It’s only flaw is it’s very inefficient…….so the audiofool crew wanting use 1watt SET amps won’t like it much. Quality watts have never been cheaper so I don’t consider amps anymore in my designs…..it just doesn’t matter. As an engineer I can tell you with full honesty and confidence that the warmth, character and appeal of tube amplification comes in the pre amp stage……..you DO NOT want tubes to impart anything in the output stage……that’s a spice like salt or pepper……for taste.…..not reference.
Notice Barefoot is using this driver as their midranges in their now world famous monitoring system……it’s active DSP of course and I suspect it playing up pretty high for the SPL they’re reporting and the close co location of the grouped drivers….likely 8-10khz region. There’s some pretty famous mix and mastering engineers that have claimed this system to be the finest loudspeaker……ever.
@Ghoostknight play your current speakers at the max volume use, that is normal for you. Use a db-meter app on your smartphone to provide us with how high sound pressure level you need.
Also tell us how large is your room.
There exists some online databases with measurements of drivers. Find some with low distortion and the spl you need.
Their sound color is not important since you will use DSP
Cheers!
Also tell us how large is your room.
There exists some online databases with measurements of drivers. Find some with low distortion and the spl you need.
Their sound color is not important since you will use DSP
Cheers!
Lots & lots of options. These showed us the potential. Outstanding, and you can do even better today.
dave
dave
its around 70-85db.... maybe i crank it sometimes to 90 or so but not for long, but what i do is DSP... so a little headroom cant hurt, specially if we would look at some extended bass via EQ/linkwitz-transform
ideally it would be around 90db/m imo but i know this is somewhat hard to achive with the limitations i give it,
i guess thats why three way starts to shine... its probably specially a compromise that studios like to take .. frequencyresponse & clarity over phase issue
hmm yes but i think resonances are audible and different materials have different resonances, DSP can certainly tame them but will tamed resonance heavy highs sound the same as "clear produced highs" ?
what driver/speaker is this? i saw some more with this "spot" design but couldnt figure out what they are
oh i havent heared of this brand till now, i keep the peerless definitely in mind ... im just so unsure of what to do 😀 i dont like compromises lol
Sometimes more components is better than fewer. When applied to the right problems it fixes response and phase.
Beginner's luck -- my first DIY made me feel the decades I had spent listening to recorded music had been wasted time, compared to the front-row full-stage realism of this 7-liter folded transmission-line series-1st-order AMT+honeycomb. (Dubbed "HeilEve"; scattered posts beginning with https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/desktop-transmission-line.391306/post-7150464)
I continued DIY during the pandemic, using both current-production and vintage/classic fullrange/widerange drivers, often with notch/shelf filters or 1st-order-XO tweeters etc. in order to flatten HF response for proper tonality and dynamics.
In other words, my FR and multi-way DIYs are a blend of the same set of techniques: 1st-order filters and mass-loaded TL folded into surprisingly compact cabs. (Minimalist method: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...nge-drivers-and-a-tweeter.391053/post-7143129)
I continued DIY during the pandemic, using both current-production and vintage/classic fullrange/widerange drivers, often with notch/shelf filters or 1st-order-XO tweeters etc. in order to flatten HF response for proper tonality and dynamics.
In other words, my FR and multi-way DIYs are a blend of the same set of techniques: 1st-order filters and mass-loaded TL folded into surprisingly compact cabs. (Minimalist method: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...nge-drivers-and-a-tweeter.391053/post-7143129)
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if wanna do a fast this driver seems quite good, the only real alternative i saw to the dayton rs225-4 frequency response wise
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/haut...0w-8-ohm-84db-25hz-3000hz-o178cm-p-15610.html
other sources list them at 130€
with the right enclosure there is no need for a sub i think... i just saw a harmonic distortion chart that didnt look that good above 100hz
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/haut...0w-8-ohm-84db-25hz-3000hz-o178cm-p-15610.html
other sources list them at 130€
with the right enclosure there is no need for a sub i think... i just saw a harmonic distortion chart that didnt look that good above 100hz
Were you hoping for a first order crossover on that woofer? Definitely not my area of expertise, hopefully someone else will chime in, but I think that might be pushing it depending on where you cross.
maybe, i will definitely compare first and higher order if im going to try first order crossovers
from the graph i would say crossover can be up to 1-1,5khz
the thing is im still unsure about the tweeter part... on one side i would like to try ribbon/electrostatic/planar/amt tweeters but this needs a higher crossover ... 2-4khz ?
or just go with fullrange and see how i like it which definitely allows a lower crossover
i found this one which looks kinda good and got good reviews on german forums https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/TANGBAND_W3-1878_fullrange_driver.pdf
Faital Pro 5FE120
might be good option too for a higher crossover, i have to see how low i can get per box, it would be nice to hit atleast my 60-70hz target for a subwoofer crossoverhttps://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/datasheet.php?id=401010110
i think in terms of THD a 5 or 6" is definitely better than 8" if i want to crossover over 1khz, its probably also better to a have a seperate subwoofer and not demand deep bass from a 2 way box
what can i expect of 5 or 6" midbasses in a closed enclosure?
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@Ghoostknight according to this 109hz in 2.8 liters. Not sure what you're looking at from an enclosure standpoint, but getting a subwoofer up that high certainly wouldn't be a problem. Personally, and again this is just my opinion... Crossing over a mark audio driver above say... 500hz kinda defeats the purpose. The magic is in not having a crossover midband. Can't speak to adding a legit tweeter, but it certainly complicates things.
https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-5FE120-5-Professional-Woofer-8-Ohm-294-1141?quantity=1
https://www.parts-express.com/FaitalPRO-5FE120-5-Professional-Woofer-8-Ohm-294-1141?quantity=1
ah thanks, a bit too high for my taste tho
the enclosure can be somewhat bigger, im thinking up to 50x30 cm baffle and 20-40cm deep, but have todo some reading about baffle design, specially if i wanna phase align woofer/tweeter(fullrange)
getting true linear phase is probably harder than i thought
yea i agree, i also hope the crossover free midrange has something to offer, i will definitely play around with the crossover frequency... 300hz might be even better
i would just need a higher crossover if i wanna go with a tweeter.. but currently im leaning towards a tang band w3-1878 + dayton RS 180-p
the dayton rs180 is f3 60hz in 15 liter and looks pretty suitable for a first order crossover
also the box would be smaller than expected