Hello
im strongly thinking going with single Fullrange drivers since i think it has some nice advantages which would be:
1. point source, its also a PC setup, currently i use Presonus Eris E8 studio monitors
2. linear phase(?), i have to include here that the Presonus wire the tweeter 180° out of phase compared to the woofers and imo this is audible, i can switch polarity and hear either forward bass or forward highs (both sound better then the "backward" sound of out of phase but i cant have both with my current speakers... and also many others)
3. easy to drive, there only need for a stereo setup in terms of dac/amp channels (if i wanna go active)
4. not really a crossover needed, for me this is one phase altering can of worms i dont really wanna go into, i can dsp with FIR equalizers instead, so the chain is as pure as a wire going from amp to speaker
(i would also use something like pure copper terminals on the speaker and some nice ofc/occ copper/silver cable
5. price, apparantly there are very good 100€ per driver speakers, which would probably not exceed 500-700€ for a pair, for this price im also willing to "just try it"
(yes, generally speaking i come from a "audiophile/audiophool" standpoint here for some, but generally speaking i think full range speakers will decomplex a system greatly)
what you guys think about these advantages? do you agree? what about disadvantages? doppler effect etc? im also wondering why in studio setups there are rarely full range speakers
ultimately i wanna have a full range + subwoofer setup, the full ranges should go down to 50-70hz and 20khz high, more is appreciated
i came up with these speaker https://www.markaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Toco.png what you guys think? imo closed is a must have, i dont wanna go BR and i also dont like it on my Presonus... it makes male vocals "lose/inaccurate" sounding imo
im strongly thinking going with single Fullrange drivers since i think it has some nice advantages which would be:
1. point source, its also a PC setup, currently i use Presonus Eris E8 studio monitors
2. linear phase(?), i have to include here that the Presonus wire the tweeter 180° out of phase compared to the woofers and imo this is audible, i can switch polarity and hear either forward bass or forward highs (both sound better then the "backward" sound of out of phase but i cant have both with my current speakers... and also many others)
3. easy to drive, there only need for a stereo setup in terms of dac/amp channels (if i wanna go active)
4. not really a crossover needed, for me this is one phase altering can of worms i dont really wanna go into, i can dsp with FIR equalizers instead, so the chain is as pure as a wire going from amp to speaker
(i would also use something like pure copper terminals on the speaker and some nice ofc/occ copper/silver cable5. price, apparantly there are very good 100€ per driver speakers, which would probably not exceed 500-700€ for a pair, for this price im also willing to "just try it"
(yes, generally speaking i come from a "audiophile/audiophool" standpoint here for some, but generally speaking i think full range speakers will decomplex a system greatly)
what you guys think about these advantages? do you agree? what about disadvantages? doppler effect etc? im also wondering why in studio setups there are rarely full range speakers
ultimately i wanna have a full range + subwoofer setup, the full ranges should go down to 50-70hz and 20khz high, more is appreciated
i came up with these speaker https://www.markaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Toco.png what you guys think? imo closed is a must have, i dont wanna go BR and i also dont like it on my Presonus... it makes male vocals "lose/inaccurate" sounding imo
The other option would be full range DML panels - these are super easy to build and sound really great. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dml-system-1-0.395246/post-7257014
oh im really wondering how they sound and compare but i kinda feel more comfortable with dynamic drivers
i will definitely keep this driver in mind, i kinda like big
(i also wouldnt mind reaching lower than 60hz, im just worried about the doppler effect)i choose the alpair 11ms because i saw a comparison video on youtube comparing 8 different full range drivers and the pluvia 7.2hd kinda stood out for of the bunch, and it seems alpair series is a notch up from the pluvia series... im also considering the maop series of markaudio, if the driver is really good im kinda willing to spend 200€ per driver
Full/wide range drivers are great options for near field listening such as at a desk or something.
But be smart in your design…..the driver diameter has its tradeoffs in either direction…..small means better high end detail but less bass…..and large is the reverse of course. People love the Mark drivers but they do have a ‘signature’ sound from the cone material timbre to the unconventional dips and peeks in the response. Don‘t ask ANY fullrange driver to play to 70hz though…….you need near zero excursion of the drive to preserve any hope of detail and clarity. Anyone who tells you different is bias blind to the reality of how a dynamic driver works. If this PC setup uses a dedicated monitor, use that space under to install a woofer box…..or behind, concealed by the monitor. Working in such close proximity, you can cross over to the sun anywhere up to 200hz. Plenty of small or low profile woofer options for that application. Kali audio makes a desktop monitoring solution just as described and it sounds great.
But be smart in your design…..the driver diameter has its tradeoffs in either direction…..small means better high end detail but less bass…..and large is the reverse of course. People love the Mark drivers but they do have a ‘signature’ sound from the cone material timbre to the unconventional dips and peeks in the response. Don‘t ask ANY fullrange driver to play to 70hz though…….you need near zero excursion of the drive to preserve any hope of detail and clarity. Anyone who tells you different is bias blind to the reality of how a dynamic driver works. If this PC setup uses a dedicated monitor, use that space under to install a woofer box…..or behind, concealed by the monitor. Working in such close proximity, you can cross over to the sun anywhere up to 200hz. Plenty of small or low profile woofer options for that application. Kali audio makes a desktop monitoring solution just as described and it sounds great.
Subjective listener warning!! I have just swapped a pair of alpair11ms for maop11's - & after 40+ hours of running-in the maop's I'd say its been the most significantly positive change of listening experience I've had. In mltl cabinet (~38 ltrs) they offer a healthy lower register, so no need for a sub. I now feel like I'm embedded 'with' the music as opposed to being a remote observer/listener (if that makes sense?).
Attic room, sloping ceiling, 10' wide by maybe 13' ... speakers are approx 7' in front of me, about 7' apart. slightly toed in. The cabinets stand just shy of 4' with driver centres at 3', i.e. directly facing me when I sit at my desk.
I'm no techy wiz or audio-brain, so I can't offer much else except to say they've been a revelation for my tired ears.
Bought here: https://kjfaudio.com/product/maop-11/... Now offered at £278/pair; I had to add 20% vat in the UK
so the speaker plan toco of mark audio isnt the way? i definitely want low extension clarity, i was hoping that the most bass comes from the cabinet and not directly from the speaker and therefore doesnt "load" the driver as much, maybe missthinking
im also a bit confused since even the 6" mark audio drivers go up to 20khz, are these mostly resonances instead of "clear highs" then?
my hearing goes up to 15khz but i still think 15-20khz "does something" to the overall sound, maybe not "directly" audible but in terms of soundwaves "messing eachother up"
my goal is definitely 60-70hz to 20khz in "good quality" (it should atleast compare to my presonus eris e8 which im kinda happy with, maybe not go down to 40hz but "atleast" 60-70hz so i can still do a proper crossover to a subwoofer (imo subwoofer crossed over at 100-120hz dont sound right)
the next thing i would consider is something like this one: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-142#post-6449298 (the closed standmount version) with 6db crossover to still preserve linear phase
im definitely willing (and will definitely do) EQ any dips/peaks, maybe even roomcorrection, i have a umik-1 here
i read a few reviews so far saying the maop is definitely a step up, i was kinda hoping to get started with the alpair 11ms which seems not bad either and maybe upgrade later in the same cabinet? tho maybe i should directly go all-in
I've no financial or other interest in kjf or markaudio... I'm just going on what my ears have told me. (pic of cabinet with alpair11ms attached)
That's not something I would have imagined myself saying 7 days ago, but in the last few days the barely-run-in maop11 drivers have undoutedly outperformed the alpair11ms drivers - & my trusty Omega Super3i's: https://omegaloudspeakers.com/collections/monitor-speakers/products/super-3i?variant=32116925196
At kjf the alpair11ms are currently 174Euros/pair & the maop11's are 320Euros/pair (+ any local taxes/delivery/etc)
If the budget is there, I'd be heading straight for the maop11's
Others with greater knowledge & experience will be far better placed to advise or encourage you; I just wanted to share my recent experience. Good Luck
(pic of cabinet with alpair11ms attached)That's not something I would have imagined myself saying 7 days ago, but in the last few days the barely-run-in maop11 drivers have undoutedly outperformed the alpair11ms drivers - & my trusty Omega Super3i's: https://omegaloudspeakers.com/collections/monitor-speakers/products/super-3i?variant=32116925196
At kjf the alpair11ms are currently 174Euros/pair & the maop11's are 320Euros/pair (+ any local taxes/delivery/etc)
If the budget is there, I'd be heading straight for the maop11's
Others with greater knowledge & experience will be far better placed to advise or encourage you; I just wanted to share my recent experience. Good Luck
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I had 3 pairs of speakers before I made FHXL with Alpair 11MS. Sonus Faber Signum - sold, Monitor Audio Gold 100 - packed back in the box and stashed in closet, Acoustic Energy Aelite 1 - in son system for now. All very good loudspeakers but with FH in main system I dont really need them any more.
From the perspective of an ongoing Jordan project the FIR advantage is huge. Right now they're out of the system pending a new passive contour network, without it they're pretty rough. The option of fine tuning in software will be substantial IMO.
From a wider 'non-prefrontal' perspective, even with less than optimal response when the Jordans are in the system music is playing way more often. The alternates are store bought stand mounts that measure very well and were 'Class-A' rated by reviewers.
i just re-read this and i understood it better now
so you are basicly saying if i wanna have the highest detail possible then i should do this:
1. small wideband driver for good mid/high clarity (something like the 7 series of markaudio instead of 11)
2. make it fast/waw if i wanna go down under, lets say 150-200hz? so the wideband driver has low excursion, which makes sense regarding the doppler effect
also good that you mention kali audio, i was actually looking into buying the IN-8 and lately they come up with the "project santa...." which is a passive design which looks kinda nice
i also saw this video:
just to clarify, do you guys think wideband can compete with these in terms of clarity/detail ? my guess is i would need to build atleast a FAST design
If you want to have the highest possible detail and clarity, then don’t use a wideband cone driver at all…..instead build a less than conventional two way speaker that is specialized for near field listening. Everything else is a compromise…….but all speaker designs are a combination of acceptable compromise….there is no ‘perfect’ loudspeaker system.
As to the above comment…..this a purely a matter of physics as we understand it today…..the size of the piston is relative to the wavelength it produces. Wanna get to 10khz and above with real content and not a conjunction of overlapping resonance?……the driver diameter HAS to be less than 2” with 1” being better.
Here‘s where DIY gets it wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME! You have a unique situation to build a system that has purpose in your room and your application……..as long as you can stay true to that and look at the entire system as a sum of the components…..the speaker, the desk, the room acoustics, and listening distance. Once you neglect any of these, you begin the process of accepting compromise.
As to the above comment…..this a purely a matter of physics as we understand it today…..the size of the piston is relative to the wavelength it produces. Wanna get to 10khz and above with real content and not a conjunction of overlapping resonance?……the driver diameter HAS to be less than 2” with 1” being better.
Here‘s where DIY gets it wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME! You have a unique situation to build a system that has purpose in your room and your application……..as long as you can stay true to that and look at the entire system as a sum of the components…..the speaker, the desk, the room acoustics, and listening distance. Once you neglect any of these, you begin the process of accepting compromise.
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Take a look at the Linkwitz LX mini as a great example of what an ideal nearfield/midfield speaker system should be from a perspective of pure acoustic science tempered with DIY ingenuity. It ticks all of the boxes for you except placement…..the upper frequency driver won’t work up against or near a rear wall.…..but Linkwitz didn’t design it for that purpose either. So in your case, eliminating the dipole radiation of the fullrange driver is where to start. The bass solution on the other hand is brilliant…..off of the desktop, large enough driver, sealed so no resonance or group delay AND upfiring so no direct suspension noises and a sense of spaciousness you can’t get in the nearfield otherwise. Linkwitz used a full range driver in this design as a compromise though…..the lx mini was meant for mid field use too so SPL was required.….a small driver that had the dynamic capability to reach down low enough to the woofer off axis was needed……that eliminated any tweeter from the running. You don’t need that much SPL in your case, so you can reduce the size of the full range driver down to say 2-2.5” though and still accomplish your goal of excellent high frequency detail and clarity.
Now you have another distinct advantage in that you ‘could’ build it as a hybrid dipole and get all of that spaciousness that you normally won’t get from a nearfield box speaker by looking your room/space.…..you’d need to treat the room and the wall behind the desk to eliminate early reflections by absorbing them. That’s not difficult nor expensive….a 4” thick wall hanging panel absorber would do the trick
Now you have another distinct advantage in that you ‘could’ build it as a hybrid dipole and get all of that spaciousness that you normally won’t get from a nearfield box speaker by looking your room/space.…..you’d need to treat the room and the wall behind the desk to eliminate early reflections by absorbing them. That’s not difficult nor expensive….a 4” thick wall hanging panel absorber would do the trick
Here’s your applications ideal driver
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1046--tymphany-ne65w-04-spec-sheet.pdf
It ticks all of your boxes for covering 500hz up to 15k with exceptional smoothness and clarity. In this range, it can also handle enough SPL to cause hearing damage in a nearfield application so no worries on that front….at normal listening levels it won’t suffer from power compression nor distortion.
The only challenge is the enclosure or lack there of…..you don’t want any reflected energy from within an enclosure coming back through the cone smearing the initial wavefront. Linkwitz dealt with this a dipole….so no box….all rearward energy escapes and out in free space away from walls, he used this to his advantage to create soundstage. You’d need to decide on your level of accepted compromise here.……
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1046--tymphany-ne65w-04-spec-sheet.pdf
It ticks all of your boxes for covering 500hz up to 15k with exceptional smoothness and clarity. In this range, it can also handle enough SPL to cause hearing damage in a nearfield application so no worries on that front….at normal listening levels it won’t suffer from power compression nor distortion.
The only challenge is the enclosure or lack there of…..you don’t want any reflected energy from within an enclosure coming back through the cone smearing the initial wavefront. Linkwitz dealt with this a dipole….so no box….all rearward energy escapes and out in free space away from walls, he used this to his advantage to create soundstage. You’d need to decide on your level of accepted compromise here.……
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Here’s a ready made solution to extrapolate from
Add a small subwoofer under your desk and you have an ideal ambiophonic solution for nearfield listening. Yes……you won’t get pinpoint detail due to the reflective nature of the HF element…..but do you want that while you’re working at your desktop?…..that type of critical listening is fatiguing ( trust me, ive done it for decades so I can speak to it better than most) it’s also distracting unless what you are working on is actually related to what you are listening to. What a system like this does it envelopes you in an environment of sound meant to entertain and relax…..while you perform the task at hand.
Take elements of this design and reconfigure as needed.
Add a small subwoofer under your desk and you have an ideal ambiophonic solution for nearfield listening. Yes……you won’t get pinpoint detail due to the reflective nature of the HF element…..but do you want that while you’re working at your desktop?…..that type of critical listening is fatiguing ( trust me, ive done it for decades so I can speak to it better than most) it’s also distracting unless what you are working on is actually related to what you are listening to. What a system like this does it envelopes you in an environment of sound meant to entertain and relax…..while you perform the task at hand.
Take elements of this design and reconfigure as needed.
i kinda see where you are going...Here’s your applications ideal driver
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1046--tymphany-ne65w-04-spec-sheet.pdf
It ticks all of your boxes for covering 500hz up to 15k with exceptional smoothness and clarity. In this range, it can also handle enough SPL to cause hearing damage in a nearfield application so no worries on that front….at normal listening levels it won’t suffer from power compression nor distortion.
if (larger) full range speakers are not perfectly suited for high frequencys, what about tweeters and a conventional 2 way design ?
i dont have necessarly something against a 2khz crossover its just hard to grasp what is objectively better
i was looking at crossovers (also active ones) and to "start" since i dont have much expierence and for others reasons i kinda wanna go with a first order filter if its doable, reasons are:
1. audible better to some if right drivers are chosen
2. better phase response (and even if there is slight phase issue i might be able to FIR it out without introducing "too much" preringing since there isnt much to compensate)
3. i might start looking into active crossovers later on for bi-amping and htis would make things just easier...
4. less parts needed for crossover ( ideally i can get away with a very easy crossover, just high/low pass for a somewhat good response, with my current setup i can always apply FIR/IIR eq afterwards to tweak it ) in my case the crossover would just be used to save A. dacs (for active crossover, if i would go down the dsp route) B. being able to use just one amplifier (for passive crossover)
hmm im not sure if this is really what i want in a desktop scenario, my room is treated, maybe even too much but i like it "dry" in that regardHere’s a ready made solution to extrapolate from
Add a small subwoofer under your desk and you have an ideal ambiophonic solution for nearfield listening. Yes……you won’t get pinpoint detail due to the reflective nature of the HF element…..but do you want that while you’re working at your desktop?…..that type of critical listening is fatiguing ( trust me, ive done it for decades so I can speak to it better than most) it’s also distracting unless what you are working on is actually related to what you are listening to. What a system like this does it envelopes you in an environment of sound meant to entertain and relax…..while you perform the task at hand.
Take elements of this design and reconfigure as needed.
i know audio is always compromising but what are good and what are bad compromises?
i definitely try to see advantages, full range driver is kinda suited in my case where for example narrow dispersion isnt a issue but im just worried about the doppler effect, it also sounds kinda "crappy" if high high frequencys are "mostly" resonances and distortion
what about AMT tweeter? i heared they can go quite low which would suite the 6db crossover
