Ben, I don't intend to dispute your experience.
The largest pipe organs are capable of fundamentals of 16 Hz, if course the harmonics are much more prominent. According to the liner notes there is 6 Hz content in the boom portion of the cannon shots on Telarc's 1812 version CD80041. My subs flop around at near their mechanical limits when I play it even though they are high passed 2nd order at 20 Hz.
Thorsten, learn to suspend reality a little and you'll enjoy movies more. 😉 There's a lot of things that wouldn't be very interesting on the screen if shot realistically. Take Top Gun's air combat scenes for example. As shot the aircraft are orders of magnitude too close. They would have shot themselves down flying through the bad guy's debris. To get an idea how far apart they'd really be back up around 4' from your monitor and look at my avatar. That's a minimum range gun shot. Missile minimum range is around 12' away. Shot realistically most of the fight the bad guy would be so far away he wouldn't be much more than a speck on the screen. Would make for a pretty boring scene. So we tuck it in as close as we can comfortably fly, take some cool looking shots, and the movie is fun. /OT
The largest pipe organs are capable of fundamentals of 16 Hz, if course the harmonics are much more prominent. According to the liner notes there is 6 Hz content in the boom portion of the cannon shots on Telarc's 1812 version CD80041. My subs flop around at near their mechanical limits when I play it even though they are high passed 2nd order at 20 Hz.
Thorsten, learn to suspend reality a little and you'll enjoy movies more. 😉 There's a lot of things that wouldn't be very interesting on the screen if shot realistically. Take Top Gun's air combat scenes for example. As shot the aircraft are orders of magnitude too close. They would have shot themselves down flying through the bad guy's debris. To get an idea how far apart they'd really be back up around 4' from your monitor and look at my avatar. That's a minimum range gun shot. Missile minimum range is around 12' away. Shot realistically most of the fight the bad guy would be so far away he wouldn't be much more than a speck on the screen. Would make for a pretty boring scene. So we tuck it in as close as we can comfortably fly, take some cool looking shots, and the movie is fun. /OT
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I fairly often listen "unreal" (or may be "unmusic" 😛) music..
for the present drivers is in good condition. thanx 14'x16' room and neighborous 😛
for the present drivers is in good condition. thanx 14'x16' room and neighborous 😛
Thanks. Greatly impressed. The way to go! Pity that IB (both benefits and problems) gets lumped together with OB - really different worlds at all frequencies.
Have you a clever method of isolating your music room from influences from the attic via the 10 sq feet of woofer cone surface (cold, heat, rain, rain patter on the roof, bugs, mice, noise, goblins...)?
What is the performance in the room as you sweep down through resonance and below? (And if you could separate what your mic "hears" from what your ears hear, like with my tweeters over 14kHz.)
The baffle boards fits snug between the trusses, I mean its sealed and its also sealed against the drywall too so there is no loss of heat or cold. The drivers themselves might have some limited heat loss but I could not tell. My attic is a monster attic, > 60,000 cuft...yes you can fit a house in it 😉 No rain/animal sounds are different then without the IB.
I have not discussion my IB in a long time (4 years), its in my family room which is a monster room itself with the back of it open to a kitchen (40x50x12) tons of issues with the room itself from its size alone, I would have to dig up all the measurements and we are obviously OT now so for this thread I think I will just say.
Some people like having systems that play to 10Hz, Its 100% choice.
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If you think those cannon make a woofer shake (with a mere 12 dB/8ave filter), you should try 33 rpm record lead-out grooves. Order re-coning supplies ahead of time.
Yes, there are some truly awful large organs with huge pipes. And I have seen on my free spectrum analyzer some weird sub-sonic stuff from those Telarc cannon and other (probably contrived) sources.
But what have you seen on your recordings? Barely nothing at all super-low in my whole organ music collection of maybe 30 albums.
Not much sense arguing about bass-lust. I have it, at least for music. But good bass down to maybe 35 (and trailing off below) is the most even enthusiastic bass-lovers need for music. Besides, nobody has introduced the notions of "flat", personally satisfying, or equal-loudness into this discussion and you can't talk about bass without defining those terms.
What Cal said
This figure is for earthquake sound effects, but if you can do it invite me to the first party, id love to see the reaction to the windows cracking and the walls vibrating
Big Boy
Hey guys,
The Army for some big "bass" for you! ;-)
WHG
Army Research Laboratory
MOBILE ACOUSTIC SOURCE (MOAS)
The MOAS is located at the Blossom Point Research Facility, MD. It is a system with environmental capabilities that exist in no other system in the world. The MOAS is a pneumatic loudspeaker system that allows scientists to verify acoustic models with atmospheric effects. The system is a true exponential horn, 56-ft long, with full fidelity from 10 to 500-Hz. It will generate sound sufficient for testing acoustic propagation of sources up to 15-km away. Other features include the following: (1) it is transportable, mounted on an expandable flatbed trailer, (2) it can develop 20,000 acoustic watts of power, or over 150-db, and (3) it may be remotely controlled with fail-safe software to ensure safe operation. The MOAS can reproduce realistic signals simulating any sound at various ranges and under controlled conditions, and it can broadcast single tones, multiple tones, or tape playbacks.
Hey guys,
The Army for some big "bass" for you! ;-)
WHG
Army Research Laboratory
MOBILE ACOUSTIC SOURCE (MOAS)
The MOAS is located at the Blossom Point Research Facility, MD. It is a system with environmental capabilities that exist in no other system in the world. The MOAS is a pneumatic loudspeaker system that allows scientists to verify acoustic models with atmospheric effects. The system is a true exponential horn, 56-ft long, with full fidelity from 10 to 500-Hz. It will generate sound sufficient for testing acoustic propagation of sources up to 15-km away. Other features include the following: (1) it is transportable, mounted on an expandable flatbed trailer, (2) it can develop 20,000 acoustic watts of power, or over 150-db, and (3) it may be remotely controlled with fail-safe software to ensure safe operation. The MOAS can reproduce realistic signals simulating any sound at various ranges and under controlled conditions, and it can broadcast single tones, multiple tones, or tape playbacks.
Attachments
what you want <10Hz bass for is Telarc's recording of Tchaikovskys 1812 Overture. I Just did some spectral analysis using matlab and during a cannon shot most of the energy is about 25Hz but significantly there are large peaks at 11.6Hz aswell. Unless you are high pass filtering a normal sub this 11.6Hz tone smacks it straight into the its hard mechanical limits.
I haven't read all of the posts but enough to know a lot of them are jerking your chain.
I'm only a beginner as well, but know enough to tell you to forget about 10Hz, trying to get to 20hz is hard enough, most of the music you will play wont have bugger all content below 40hz.
15" bass driver is plenty big enough for most people especially in a box.
If you want to build OB speakers I may be of some use.
Oh and you are probably going to need more than 50W to driver the bass down to 20hz at any level, you know you may not be able to hear 20Hz, my ex can't.
David
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I can't hear 20hz, I can feel it tho, that's why i said it is for effects, 15inch woofers are what i use but having seen the new 21inch
Audiomarketplace - Exodus Maelstrom-X2 21" Subwoofer
I may change my mind if i had the money, but even here that 10hz is a fiction
4-way perhaps for that last low octave, crossing to 12s or 10s at 55/80
Audiomarketplace - Exodus Maelstrom-X2 21" Subwoofer
I may change my mind if i had the money, but even here that 10hz is a fiction
4-way perhaps for that last low octave, crossing to 12s or 10s at 55/80
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Hmm, go away for a few months and this old chestnut comes up again. 🙂
My advice for a beginner. Find a good plan/kit for a reasonably high efficiency two way that is flat to about 40 Hz and build them first. You will have plenty of fun and trouble-shooting just with that to start with. Once built, listen to them for a while in your system and room. You may well find at this point that you have plenty of lower frequency impact, bearing in mind what most people think of as sub-bass is actually around 60-80Hz, (the kick in the stomach feeling). After a month or so, if still dissatisfied, and ready to pick up the screw gun and soldering iron, then build one or two subs and cross over electronically with your main system, (this may well be built into your 5/1 amp).
I know this may not be what you want to hear, but it will give you a fighting chance of getting something that works, rather than a lot of effort, expense and frustration that leads you to disillusionment with the whole hobby.
Good luck!
My advice for a beginner. Find a good plan/kit for a reasonably high efficiency two way that is flat to about 40 Hz and build them first. You will have plenty of fun and trouble-shooting just with that to start with. Once built, listen to them for a while in your system and room. You may well find at this point that you have plenty of lower frequency impact, bearing in mind what most people think of as sub-bass is actually around 60-80Hz, (the kick in the stomach feeling). After a month or so, if still dissatisfied, and ready to pick up the screw gun and soldering iron, then build one or two subs and cross over electronically with your main system, (this may well be built into your 5/1 amp).
I know this may not be what you want to hear, but it will give you a fighting chance of getting something that works, rather than a lot of effort, expense and frustration that leads you to disillusionment with the whole hobby.
Good luck!
ah yes that is a good point crossovers for your 21" drivers will be expensive if done passively due to the large high value inductors needed.
If you google 'humble homemade hifi' you will find some excellent designs for diy loudspeakers inc their crossovers. I am certain something there will tickle your fancy... As for the crossovers - as stated above - look at the components in the 'Galactica' and you may well wince at the price of some of the components - especially if you go for Duelund.
A few months ago, I shared the view that good bass down to maybe 40 Hz is about as good as it gets or needs to get. That 1812 on Telarc is a rare exception and even the lowest organ pedals on recordings rarely are below 33 (see my many posts on watching music on a freeware computer spectrum analyzer).
But more recently, I've noticed my cheapy Radio Shack SPL meter showing substantial output even down to 10 Hz despite the fact that my horn and giant OB are particularly poor at functioning below their design range.
But to really hear/feel anything south of 30, you need enormous Fletcher-Munson acoustic power and almost none of us can do it*. And even if we could, far better to keep a lid on things with good subsonic filtering except for an occasional New Years Eve lease-breaking performance.
*I think it is pure fantasy to try to pump vast bass into an OB as Linkowitz proposes.
But more recently, I've noticed my cheapy Radio Shack SPL meter showing substantial output even down to 10 Hz despite the fact that my horn and giant OB are particularly poor at functioning below their design range.
But to really hear/feel anything south of 30, you need enormous Fletcher-Munson acoustic power and almost none of us can do it*. And even if we could, far better to keep a lid on things with good subsonic filtering except for an occasional New Years Eve lease-breaking performance.
*I think it is pure fantasy to try to pump vast bass into an OB as Linkowitz proposes.
There is not much to gain if you are using them in a small room, for a typical home environment, i would much prefer a 15inch driver...
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18's
hey there,i just saw this thread and thought i would share my experiance,i binned the jamo boxes and jamo 12's, built speakers using 18's in custom built boxes with horn mid's from jamo box and dome's from jamo box,the crossover i had to mod for freq x/over and attenuation,as the 18 had a spl of 114,and the jamo bits were 89!now as far as moving lots of air,it didnt,the woofer was so "turned down"it had a really easy life..hope this helps,oh and something else stereo image is crap,with baffles of this size(my cabs were something like 42 ins' tall 24 ins' wide)
hey there,i just saw this thread and thought i would share my experiance,i binned the jamo boxes and jamo 12's, built speakers using 18's in custom built boxes with horn mid's from jamo box and dome's from jamo box,the crossover i had to mod for freq x/over and attenuation,as the 18 had a spl of 114,and the jamo bits were 89!now as far as moving lots of air,it didnt,the woofer was so "turned down"it had a really easy life..hope this helps,oh and something else stereo image is crap,with baffles of this size(my cabs were something like 42 ins' tall 24 ins' wide)
You could always try the Econowave speakers, they seem to be all the rage, there is plenty of info & they are cheap, or can be cheap. You could retro fit old boxes to cut down on the woodworking.
Or try DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen.
I second the Humble Homemade Hifi.
David
Or try DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen.
I second the Humble Homemade Hifi.
David
That would be better served as either a sub or a 4-way system.
The crossover frequency has everything to do with the frequency response curve of the driver and its dispersion pattern (polar response curves) with respect to the other drivers at the intended crossover frequency. It has nothing to do with how much power you give it.
The size or the drivers really has more to do with the size of the room you are filling.
Maybe this site will help you understand some of the relationships.
I built a 15" 3-way and it has more than enough punch for my house. 3-way and 4-way systems are much more complicated than the average builder should tackle and almost impossible for the first time builder unless they are really set on drinking from a fire hose!
I would really suggest building something from a published design that has a track record of performance first, then take on more complex designs as you build experience.
The crossover frequency has everything to do with the frequency response curve of the driver and its dispersion pattern (polar response curves) with respect to the other drivers at the intended crossover frequency. It has nothing to do with how much power you give it.
The size or the drivers really has more to do with the size of the room you are filling.
Maybe this site will help you understand some of the relationships.
I built a 15" 3-way and it has more than enough punch for my house. 3-way and 4-way systems are much more complicated than the average builder should tackle and almost impossible for the first time builder unless they are really set on drinking from a fire hose!
I would really suggest building something from a published design that has a track record of performance first, then take on more complex designs as you build experience.
Inexpensive is the expression I would have chosen, rather than cheap. You can build some versions for modest amounts or spend some more on better drivers like the AE TD12M and B&C/Beyma/BMS compression drivers and step up quite an amount in performance. Go active and they're even better, but most people are reluctant to spend the budget.
I love reading Tony Gee's stuff, but some of it is just odd.
This I agree with.
But this I don't. I've had large 15" based 3 way systems in small rooms and they worked fine.
I've seen your 3 way and like it. It's similar to the system I linked in my first post in this thread, except that the original Franks used an 18" PHL and PHL 6.5 (same designers as your Audax I believe)
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