But seriously folks and despite my earlier encouragement towards large drivers: my vague impression, Hartley's aside, is that it is very hard for a driver designer to get all the ducks in a row with anything with more cone real estate than 15 inches. Or needs to.
form the few data sheets I have seen, I agree with this.
A 15" sounds like it might be a better option.
Like I said, I am a novice when it comes to speakers.
I was playing with the software on the Madisound website, 500 Internal Server Error trying to get the response flat to 10Hz and I found the only way to do this was to change the Fs of the driver to 10Hz otherwise the driver would roll off at 50Hz.
I was just mucking around, but I think I learnt that the resonant frequency was directly proportional to the LF response of the driver.
Or did I put 2 and 2 together and get 10?
Hi,
Forgive me for saying, but your appraoch seems a little naive.
It just does not work to take some kind of box simulator/calculator punch in some numbers and get results that make sense.
Ignoring at the moment why you want response flat to 10Hz, as you will not be using the speaker in open air (unless of course you will) you need to account for room influences etc.
An easy way to get your 21" Driver to produce 10Hz (and one of the reasons why one may use such a large driver) is to place it into a small sealed box and then to use a so-called Linkwitz Transform equaliser to produce a response that is around 6dB down at 20Hz and 9dB at 10Hz, which would approach "flat" in most rooms.
In principle you can get "10Hz flat" using a 5" Driver using Equalisation, however it will not play any useful sound pressure level. A 21" or 24" with a reasonable X-Max will have substantial output by comparison.
I suspect there is much reading for you to catch upon first, before you work any more on this. A good start is Siegfied Linkwitz's old "Active Speaker System" Article (at his website). While described for "toy" speakers, the principles described there hold true and scale to much larger systems.
Ciao T
Forgive me for saying, but your appraoch seems a little naive.
It just does not work to take some kind of box simulator/calculator punch in some numbers and get results that make sense.
Ignoring at the moment why you want response flat to 10Hz, as you will not be using the speaker in open air (unless of course you will) you need to account for room influences etc.
An easy way to get your 21" Driver to produce 10Hz (and one of the reasons why one may use such a large driver) is to place it into a small sealed box and then to use a so-called Linkwitz Transform equaliser to produce a response that is around 6dB down at 20Hz and 9dB at 10Hz, which would approach "flat" in most rooms.
In principle you can get "10Hz flat" using a 5" Driver using Equalisation, however it will not play any useful sound pressure level. A 21" or 24" with a reasonable X-Max will have substantial output by comparison.
I suspect there is much reading for you to catch upon first, before you work any more on this. A good start is Siegfied Linkwitz's old "Active Speaker System" Article (at his website). While described for "toy" speakers, the principles described there hold true and scale to much larger systems.
Ciao T
Thanks Thorsten, this is exactly the information I was looking for.
I will look up the websites you have suggested.
Yes I am naive when it comes to speakers that is why I am asking the question on this forum, and no, I was not going to dive into making something and buying drivers without having resonable understanding of the science behind the driver selection and cabinet size and design etc.
I like the "idea" of a speaker that is flat to 10Hz, I realise that I cant actually hear 10Hz at my listening position. (Just like my car has a top speed of 270Kmh but I won't ever go that fast in it - If you know what I mean) 🙂
I will look up the websites you have suggested.
Yes I am naive when it comes to speakers that is why I am asking the question on this forum, and no, I was not going to dive into making something and buying drivers without having resonable understanding of the science behind the driver selection and cabinet size and design etc.
I like the "idea" of a speaker that is flat to 10Hz, I realise that I cant actually hear 10Hz at my listening position. (Just like my car has a top speed of 270Kmh but I won't ever go that fast in it - If you know what I mean) 🙂
Hi,
I think have a look around the web for some basic sites that explain speaker basics first.
Once you accept active equalised operation for example there is inprinciple no limit to LF Bandwidth, but there remains a maximum SPL limit at a given frequency, due to limited cone surface and limited excursion (a Driver with infinitly large cone and excursion can produce infinite pressure at 0Hz, a driver with 0 Excursion, cone surface or both cannot produce any sound at any frequency).
The next part is to understand the interactions between Speaker and Room.
Then you need to define the context for "flat". A speaker that is flat down to 10Hz in a certain room will not be flat in open air, one that is flat in open air will not be flat in room and so on.
I know what you mean. But your car probably has anti-lock breaks and other measures to make this top-speed as safe as possible.
In case of normal houses having speakers that can produce significant SPL's in the infrasonic range have implications of structural integrity, among other things. For reference, 32' Organ Pipes have a fundamental at 16Hz, most of those Churches that have organs with these pipes have them stopped, to avoid structural damage...
Ciao T
I think have a look around the web for some basic sites that explain speaker basics first.
Once you accept active equalised operation for example there is inprinciple no limit to LF Bandwidth, but there remains a maximum SPL limit at a given frequency, due to limited cone surface and limited excursion (a Driver with infinitly large cone and excursion can produce infinite pressure at 0Hz, a driver with 0 Excursion, cone surface or both cannot produce any sound at any frequency).
The next part is to understand the interactions between Speaker and Room.
Then you need to define the context for "flat". A speaker that is flat down to 10Hz in a certain room will not be flat in open air, one that is flat in open air will not be flat in room and so on.
I know what you mean. But your car probably has anti-lock breaks and other measures to make this top-speed as safe as possible.
In case of normal houses having speakers that can produce significant SPL's in the infrasonic range have implications of structural integrity, among other things. For reference, 32' Organ Pipes have a fundamental at 16Hz, most of those Churches that have organs with these pipes have them stopped, to avoid structural damage...
Ciao T
The Beyma 15P1000 will do F10 of 30Hz in a 'reasonable' box of 14x14x19" (~100L) with a 5" x 10" port, and will hit 114dBSPL (120 for stereo pair) with 400 watts without hitting xmax limits as long as you use a 4th order highpass at 24Hz.
For lower F10 and lower SPL, you can relax the filtering and get 22Hz F10 with about half the power and a 150L box, but SPL of 'only' 110dB or so. Obviously these are off a sim and rooms have more influence on the bass than a sim is willing to tell me, but I'm getting there 🙂
The 18 and 21 inch drivers also look great.
For lower F10 and lower SPL, you can relax the filtering and get 22Hz F10 with about half the power and a 150L box, but SPL of 'only' 110dB or so. Obviously these are off a sim and rooms have more influence on the bass than a sim is willing to tell me, but I'm getting there 🙂
The 18 and 21 inch drivers also look great.
4-way with these cut off at 80 / 120 maximum
Audiomarketplace - Exodus Maelstrom-X2 21" Subwoofer
Then apply a little EQ
Audiomarketplace - Exodus Maelstrom-X2 21" Subwoofer
Then apply a little EQ
I have been dabbling with speakers since I was a child and the thought of 10 Hz has never crossed my mind. Can someone please explain the purpose of a transducer capable of 10 Hz. Give it some detail so I have a chance of understanding the reasoning. On the surface I see an arbitrary figure thrown out by someone not yet suited to designing such an animal and without the understanding of why 10Hz might be needed.
I have an IB array that does 110dB at 10Hz.
Several movies have content below 10Hz and its simply a choice of wanting to experience that conent or not.
Im currently building two LMS5400 18" sealed subs with 4000Watts each for my HT room (IB is in the family room). I want to get single digit performance in that room.
Several movies have content below 10Hz and its simply a choice of wanting to experience that conent or not.
Im currently building two LMS5400 18" sealed subs with 4000Watts each for my HT room (IB is in the family room). I want to get single digit performance in that room.
my LF (15" now) working in IB in small room (I have no place for boxes! 😀). -3dB @10Hz or -10dB @10Hz (with different drivers\correction) - I don't think many about this. I do not watch movies at home.. custom made ~24" are in project..))
but
but
😕
I suppose you realize that some people just might be curious. How do you measure? True IB or OB or what? What drivers, cone movement, EQ?
Hi,
Why stop there? Why not see how many zero's you can get between the decimal point and the 1 for 100dB/10% THD output? Kinda like dB drag racing.
I mean going ridiculously low and loud (to the point where the sound liquifies your intestines) is a fairly trivial engineering challenge, if you throw enough cash at it.
I find that real music has little content below 32Hz, at any significant level, but pushing down into the low 20's is normally easy in room and seems subjectively beneficial.
T-Rex foot-stomp impact for Movies, you do need a structurally sound fully detached house and patient neighbours for that.
I find the poormans version (buttkickers on the Sofa) is also fun (and get's me into less trouble with neighbours) and no-one pretends that movie soundtracks have any more in common with reality than the movies themselves.
I mean did anyone ever notice how they never seem to have re-load their assault rifles in movies, until the "out of ammo except the last round but there are two baddies left standing after around 20 minutes continuous, non re-loading fully automatic fire from an AK-47/Armalite" moment.
Give me a French Connection UK'ing break.
One of the best Movies I know (The Red Violin) does not even need a Sub on LS 3/5A's... It does make up for the lack of subbass antics with good acting, several great stories and amazing music.
Ciao T
Why stop there? Why not see how many zero's you can get between the decimal point and the 1 for 100dB/10% THD output? Kinda like dB drag racing.
I mean going ridiculously low and loud (to the point where the sound liquifies your intestines) is a fairly trivial engineering challenge, if you throw enough cash at it.
I find that real music has little content below 32Hz, at any significant level, but pushing down into the low 20's is normally easy in room and seems subjectively beneficial.
T-Rex foot-stomp impact for Movies, you do need a structurally sound fully detached house and patient neighbours for that.
I find the poormans version (buttkickers on the Sofa) is also fun (and get's me into less trouble with neighbours) and no-one pretends that movie soundtracks have any more in common with reality than the movies themselves.
I mean did anyone ever notice how they never seem to have re-load their assault rifles in movies, until the "out of ammo except the last round but there are two baddies left standing after around 20 minutes continuous, non re-loading fully automatic fire from an AK-47/Armalite" moment.
Give me a French Connection UK'ing break.
One of the best Movies I know (The Red Violin) does not even need a Sub on LS 3/5A's... It does make up for the lack of subbass antics with good acting, several great stories and amazing music.
Ciao T
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Pipe organs, kettle drums and cannons (as in 1812 overture) have a lot of information down to the teens and sometimes single digits. I don't necessarily want to feel it, but I don't want my subwoofer bottoming out or making other nasty noises. I love a good kick in the gut during shoot-em-up movie, though.
You're right, deep bass and attached neighbors generally don't go together.
Ben's frequently repeated DIYaudio post: Recently I've spent a lot of time "watching" CDs on my freeware spectrum analyzer oscilloscope. I think you should do the same before you claim strange things like kettledrums, organ pipes, or much else going below 32 Hz except rarely and I mean practically not at all. When there is something visible on the screen below maybe 40 Hz*, your ears would barely know if it wasn't there except by A-B comparison.
*I'd say 60 Hz when feeling ornery. No kidding.
Measured using a calibrated ECM8000 mic with the usual free measurement software choices like REW.
True IB, I did the line array instead of the manifold in my ceiling, attic is the box.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
4x18" woofers, (Q18s ficaraudio.com), Scott from ficar created custom ones for me so they would work for IB. Now they have the most popular IB driver choices. Most displacement/$$$ choices, chart found here
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ginmtb/woofer_comparison_chart.htm
More information about IB designs is here "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled"Hear The Bass, Not The Box The definitive online resource for Infinite Baffle subwoofer designEstablished 1999 - Home
so nor xmax nor distortion is limiting factor for my system. neighborous is. and own ears 🙂
10-20 Hz @0dB could damage speakers 😀 🙄 (Q about .3)
Some of us love action movies, Transformers, Batman, Iron Man, Hulk, Hellboy II and so on are just a lot of fun with an incredible setup. My kids love "How to train your dragon" and that has some incredible low bass. If you have never experienced the lowest bass then your comments are purely superficial/subjective/hate kind of stuff.
It takes LESS money then buying one SVS PB13 subs so it is not $$$ thing to get great low bass just takes education.
Some of us enjoy the experience of REAL hair tingling compression in rooms. two channel old guys may not understand this but then again there are a lot of things they probably complain about on a day to day basis, nothing new there. Through attrition this opinion of yours will disappear and HT will dominate the audio world.
Enjoy Red Violin, it put me to sleep 😉
Im 41 and I still enjoy real life events that tingle the senses.
As for your remark about "real" music....yeah we get it, you listen to "real" music and those who like techno bass are morons 🙄 ( I do not listen to it but Im not going to get into "That is fake, this is real" stupid debate).
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