Steve Eddy said:
By the way, here's the Gaincard.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
se
I'm really sorry for that chip.
Why go to the trouble or making a (such a lousy) PCB and then solder the (cheap and crappy) components P2P?
This really escapes me...
I guess someone will kill us (the shocked brigade).
Because it seams not politically correct to criticize the s**t internals of these amps, it's 47 Labs .
It escaped me at first sight, but those pots are the worst things I know.
Contact spray every 3 months?
As for the Gaincard, I would keep the box and
the PCB.😀
One thing I don't understand is why so many people are angry at the price and the components/labor inside. You pay for the sound not for how it is achieved. If the quality of the sound is in 2KEur class(or better) why care at all? They are smart since they are able to produce better quality with fewer components. They deserve their money. Even more for their courage to build such and amp ignoring what the trend is and proving that it can be done.
I think it is made like that for a reason... Would you agree with me that using a PCB would be faster(hence cheaper too since the labor costs a lot)? Then why didn't they use it? It is also cheaper than the copper they use.carlosfm said:tbe:
Why go to the trouble or making a (such a lousy) PCB and then solder the (cheap and crappy) components P2P?
This really escapes me...
purplepeople said:
Thats a pretty bad analogy. I can assure you that those handmade bicycles made for top pro's are absolutely flawless. Ive stripped the paint on quite a number of that sort of bikes, and cut up just as many, to gain knowledge about their construction. Besides that Ive made a number of such bike frames for top riders myself.....trust me, thats a no expense spared matter.
As far as im concerned there is no way poor craftmanship can be defended...for bikes or amps.
Magura🙂
"It's just a different approach (and different design philosophy), but it's still not completely settled which one actually is bett"
Let me ask it another way: would you book a flight across the Atlantic on a plane with similar quality construction?
Let me ask it another way: would you book a flight across the Atlantic on a plane with similar quality construction?
sam9 said:
Touche. OTOH, when I fly, I do enjoy telling other passengers that the plane is actually glued together.
Magura said:
Maybe you used jigs in your work and pre-cut tubes, but that would be the equivalent of a solder mask.
In custom recumbents, every piece is sized and fitted by hand. I've never met a brazed joint or a carbon lay-up that didn't need some pre-finish work. As long as it was strong enough to do the job, light enough to ride uphill and shaped the way it needed to be, who cares what it looked like under the paint.
That said, I too care about workmanship and wouldn't dare release such work in public, even if it didn't affect the sound. I just won't disparage Kimura's work if they deliver the goods.
The HPV analogy is Gold Rush vs Vector. Vector is ten times more beautiful but lost the race to the Easy Racers team. Yet, Vector is why so many have entered recumbents. Gaincard is the same reason why so many build Gainclones.
Just like with GC, I won't pay for a Gold Rush, but prefer to build my own for much less.
🙂ensen.
Pedja said:
Nuuk said:Pedja, which sounds best - the spinach or shoelace? 😀
Now I wish that I could pick up hi-fi components while I shopped for groceries!
Hmm, uncle Nick, you never know what can serve for what. I mean, there are always certain chances the things won’t be used as proposed…
Attachments
GregGC said:
I cannot see that. The cap sits just between the psu caps, the copper side here does not provide connections for + and - .
Thats why I thought about this cap being in the feedback path.But on the other hand a cap between + and - would make sense, I have good experiences with (smaller film) caps at this position.
Looking at those pictures in the review, the entire amp looks handmade, which it probably is. Isn't that the point? Anyone who opens the box will expect to find a set of rustic pcbs. They certainly don't resemble any other commercial innards I've seen this side of the 1970s, maybe that is also a conscious choice - it has the look of a timeless design.
Would I pay 2000 euros for it? Definitely not, but I wouldn't pay that much for anything electronic and I know how to do rusic well enough myself. However, the market this amp is aimed at is fairly obvious I think: handmade, minimalist design extended to as many appliances as possible. Many people will pay a lot of money for that effect.
Would I pay 2000 euros for it? Definitely not, but I wouldn't pay that much for anything electronic and I know how to do rusic well enough myself. However, the market this amp is aimed at is fairly obvious I think: handmade, minimalist design extended to as many appliances as possible. Many people will pay a lot of money for that effect.
I still say the build is sloppy.
I have "handmade" many pieces of equipment including this equalizer which I built for a local business to improve the sound of their background music system. It did.
It's easy to see that this equalizer was built by hand.
The wiring harness isn't exactly right. Some of the wires are too long.
It shows an attempt to produce a professional looking product.
The interior of the "Gaincard" shows no such attempt.
I have "handmade" many pieces of equipment including this equalizer which I built for a local business to improve the sound of their background music system. It did.
It's easy to see that this equalizer was built by hand.
The wiring harness isn't exactly right. Some of the wires are too long.
It shows an attempt to produce a professional looking product.
The interior of the "Gaincard" shows no such attempt.
Attachments
Maybe it's like hairstyles.
I've seen people spend considerable amounts of time intentionally making their hair look like they just got out of bed after 12 hours of restless sleep. 🙂
se
I've seen people spend considerable amounts of time intentionally making their hair look like they just got out of bed after 12 hours of restless sleep. 🙂
se
There's more to life than solder joints
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect the opinion of everyone who has posted here.
I find it interesting, though, that everyone with a complaint is pretty technically saavy and complaining about workmanship and price vs materials.
I'm pretty confident that the average purchaser of the 47 Labs gear would never even get an inkling to look inside one of these. That said, I don't think 47 Labs will change their methods to soothe the ire of us tech-types, so long as their gear delivers what their customers expect (don't tell me that too many of you guys consider yourselves "customers" of 47 Labs - you know what I mean, you DIYers).
And if you really feel like you need to do something about it, well, we do live in a market economy. You're free to market your own competing product. If enough people prefer your clean layout/solder joints and find your more reasonable price markup attractive... well, hey, your're in business... and have proven your point. Otherwise, thanks for your opinion (but not your flames).
As for my own thoughts, seems to me 47Labs would save a lot of time and effort just whipping up some PC boards to stuff. Why do they do it by hand, especially when it ends up looking not so clean and is obviously more work and time intensive? Beats me. Could it affect the sound?
I don't mind the workmanship. Looks to me that the solder joints are pretty solid despite being blobby, and I'm really happy with my 25 watt Gaincard (I still pefer it with a tubed line stage, though). When I look at my amp, I don't think "man, I wish the workmanship inside were cleaner." Nope, I appreciate the cool form factor, and more than that I really like how it sounds - works for me, and makes me happy.
If I could do it again, I'd try building an all-out GC based on Brian GT's boards with my own case design and all. Too bad these forums weren't around at that time. But I have no regrets paying what I did for my Gaincard. I really think it's cool, and it's the amp that I use every day.
I recently worked at a high-end audio salon and have seen and heard a lot of mega-buck amps that were impeccably put together. But you know what? Most of them weren't special... sound-wise, that is... not enough so that I would want to take one home. In fact, in the time I worked there, there were only a handful of products that I thought were really exceptional. The Gaincard was one of them.
So I don't lose too much sleep about messy-looking solder joint. I just know what makes me happy and go by that.
Best,
KT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect the opinion of everyone who has posted here.
I find it interesting, though, that everyone with a complaint is pretty technically saavy and complaining about workmanship and price vs materials.
I'm pretty confident that the average purchaser of the 47 Labs gear would never even get an inkling to look inside one of these. That said, I don't think 47 Labs will change their methods to soothe the ire of us tech-types, so long as their gear delivers what their customers expect (don't tell me that too many of you guys consider yourselves "customers" of 47 Labs - you know what I mean, you DIYers).
And if you really feel like you need to do something about it, well, we do live in a market economy. You're free to market your own competing product. If enough people prefer your clean layout/solder joints and find your more reasonable price markup attractive... well, hey, your're in business... and have proven your point. Otherwise, thanks for your opinion (but not your flames).
As for my own thoughts, seems to me 47Labs would save a lot of time and effort just whipping up some PC boards to stuff. Why do they do it by hand, especially when it ends up looking not so clean and is obviously more work and time intensive? Beats me. Could it affect the sound?
I don't mind the workmanship. Looks to me that the solder joints are pretty solid despite being blobby, and I'm really happy with my 25 watt Gaincard (I still pefer it with a tubed line stage, though). When I look at my amp, I don't think "man, I wish the workmanship inside were cleaner." Nope, I appreciate the cool form factor, and more than that I really like how it sounds - works for me, and makes me happy.
If I could do it again, I'd try building an all-out GC based on Brian GT's boards with my own case design and all. Too bad these forums weren't around at that time. But I have no regrets paying what I did for my Gaincard. I really think it's cool, and it's the amp that I use every day.
I recently worked at a high-end audio salon and have seen and heard a lot of mega-buck amps that were impeccably put together. But you know what? Most of them weren't special... sound-wise, that is... not enough so that I would want to take one home. In fact, in the time I worked there, there were only a handful of products that I thought were really exceptional. The Gaincard was one of them.
So I don't lose too much sleep about messy-looking solder joint. I just know what makes me happy and go by that.
Best,
KT
KT, suppuse you have the amp, say, 20 years from now.
Something goes wrong.
You need to change a resistor.
You'll say what a F...&%%$##""!!#%&$ing board!
Willllllllllllllllllllllllmmmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! 😀
Hold on this board, I'm burning my fingers!
Then you'll feel like you're gonna the amp.😀
Seriously, on the inside that deam amp seams like a made-in-china radio 30 years ago.
Something goes wrong.
You need to change a resistor.
You'll say what a F...&%%$##""!!#%&$ing board!
Willllllllllllllllllllllllmmmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! 😀
Hold on this board, I'm burning my fingers!
Then you'll feel like you're gonna
the amp.😀 Seriously, on the inside that deam amp seams like a made-in-china radio 30 years ago.
KT & Calosfm,
It looks to me like 47 Lab has devised an incredible low cost way of dealing warranty returns -- do no diagnosis of the problem, just rip the insides out and replace them. Materials cost: US$30 max and labor limited to basic salvage+assembly.
It looks to me like 47 Lab has devised an incredible low cost way of dealing warranty returns -- do no diagnosis of the problem, just rip the insides out and replace them. Materials cost: US$30 max and labor limited to basic salvage+assembly.
does it really matter what the inside looks like? Most of the people that buy these amps never open them up anyway (especially if there's a sticker saying something with void and warranty 😉 ).
Maybe the mess adds in harmonics somewhere which makes it sound "just right". It sounds pretty good, imho...
Maybe the mess adds in harmonics somewhere which makes it sound "just right". It sounds pretty good, imho...
off topic may be
The so call high end audio products IMHO are like art, either you like it or you don’t, $ price justification is reflected on demand and supply. For instance I don’t think we can really justify an oil painting’s price with its material costs. We certainly can admire or criticize the technique he employs but not the price. If it can be sold with higher price all power to him. Why would one pay a million dollar for a painting with just some old oil paint slapped on the old canvas with a broken frame and can’t even figure out what is in the picture? If one likes it and with the buying power why not? May be for some of us this is insane but for those people satisfaction can be bought for whatever reason is the next thing money can buy; before one departs from this dimension we are in currently.
Just my 2 bobs,
Chris
😉
The so call high end audio products IMHO are like art, either you like it or you don’t, $ price justification is reflected on demand and supply. For instance I don’t think we can really justify an oil painting’s price with its material costs. We certainly can admire or criticize the technique he employs but not the price. If it can be sold with higher price all power to him. Why would one pay a million dollar for a painting with just some old oil paint slapped on the old canvas with a broken frame and can’t even figure out what is in the picture? If one likes it and with the buying power why not? May be for some of us this is insane but for those people satisfaction can be bought for whatever reason is the next thing money can buy; before one departs from this dimension we are in currently.
Just my 2 bobs,
Chris
😉
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