2Bak said:
Of course not.
And, before this Gaincard/clone movement, and before having even seen a review of a Gaincard, I listened to that on a hi-fi dealer in Cascais.
This was some years ago and it was presented to me as a "new japanese high-end manufacturer".
I though those very thin wires were very curious, but I actually liked the sound of the Gaincard.
That's not in question here.
What's in question is if a manufacturer can ask huge amounts of money by a product like this.
Externally the boxes are ok, but internaly what a mess!😱
A friend of mine some years ago said to me that high-end costs what it sounds, independently of being cheap or expensive to make.
I found it hard to believe at that time, but as time goes by I learned that he's right.
I could make a cheap passive pre with just a good pot inside and ask 10,000 Euros for that.
Sounds good, doesn't it?
So it deserves the money.😎
I - although not involved with 47labs - slowly get angry with some of the reactions/prejudiced non-reactions in this thread:
Cheap design?
In very many preamps the signal passes two switches:
1: the input selector
2. the tape/source selector
What is the problem here?
The amp output is often routed via a small relais: Better than a switch?
Thin cables?
Thin solid core, specially for shorter lenghth, can sound better than any other cable. It can also be a part of the design if the resistance is low (like the discussed output resistor).
Cheap fader?
Where do you see that?
Everything for 100$?
Why not, considered the profit margins, storage costs etc. If you do not like a painting do you calculate the cost of the oil color and the canvas instead and blame the artist for beeing "too expensive"?
Pre historic radio?
If this would be a tube amp, nobody would argue.
Stripped caps?
Although I never tried that, there are well respected members in this forum who do the same with very good results.
Non-shielded wires?
No comment. (In a well shielded case? ...)
I tend to admire this design even more. It is more like a piece of art, done by hand in an individual manner.
Again: If you do not like it and the way how it sounds, do not buy it. If you have troubles with the way how it looks from inside, do not open the case.
Whats the matter with some of you guys, are you jealous?
ps: The red cap underneath the board is - by size - the Zobel cap (WIMA).
Cheap design?
In very many preamps the signal passes two switches:
1: the input selector
2. the tape/source selector
What is the problem here?
The amp output is often routed via a small relais: Better than a switch?
Thin cables?
Thin solid core, specially for shorter lenghth, can sound better than any other cable. It can also be a part of the design if the resistance is low (like the discussed output resistor).
Cheap fader?
Where do you see that?
Everything for 100$?
Why not, considered the profit margins, storage costs etc. If you do not like a painting do you calculate the cost of the oil color and the canvas instead and blame the artist for beeing "too expensive"?
Pre historic radio?
If this would be a tube amp, nobody would argue.
Stripped caps?
Although I never tried that, there are well respected members in this forum who do the same with very good results.
Non-shielded wires?
No comment. (In a well shielded case? ...)
I tend to admire this design even more. It is more like a piece of art, done by hand in an individual manner.
Again: If you do not like it and the way how it sounds, do not buy it. If you have troubles with the way how it looks from inside, do not open the case.
Whats the matter with some of you guys, are you jealous?
ps: The red cap underneath the board is - by size - the Zobel cap (WIMA).
I tend to agree with Carlos.
Wonder when bad soldered joints became art?? I sure would be unhappy if I had to put my name on something sporting that low quality craftmanship.
Magura🙂
Wonder when bad soldered joints became art?? I sure would be unhappy if I had to put my name on something sporting that low quality craftmanship.
Magura🙂
" 'Best results were indeed with string quartets, Locatelli, Vivaldi, Händel, but.... also Dire Straits worked out very nicely. '
"Hmm, sounds like an undersize PSU causing dynamic range limitation to me "
Exactly. I don't think connecting it to my Magges and putting on Toccata & Fuge in D would be a good idea . . .
"Hmm, sounds like an undersize PSU causing dynamic range limitation to me "
Exactly. I don't think connecting it to my Magges and putting on Toccata & Fuge in D would be a good idea . . .
lohk said:
Hi,
this pot looks like that on picture below. This is a low budget ALPS pot very often installed in small budget audio consoles.
In 2000€ amp I expect something better (like this one: http://www.pennyandgiles.com/docGallery/76.PDF or similar)
Regards
Attachments
"SakuraSystem was the first company who made amplifiers with opamps successfully, were they not? "
When did they first come on the market? I think Nohr also uses IC amps - when did they appear? Also it would not surprise me to find that IC amps appeared in the automotive market quite a bit sooner. Not to mention the amp section of boom boxes. I think it may be more accurate to say that Sakura is the first to charge over $500 for an IC amp.
When did they first come on the market? I think Nohr also uses IC amps - when did they appear? Also it would not surprise me to find that IC amps appeared in the automotive market quite a bit sooner. Not to mention the amp section of boom boxes. I think it may be more accurate to say that Sakura is the first to charge over $500 for an IC amp.
Konnichiwa,
Does it REALLY?
Okay, all components would be on one PCB (including switches, jacks and spring clip type wire connectors.
That would LOOK neat on the outside, but usually signal & ground routing is usually awful. You would be unlikely to see a LM1875 with symmetrical supplies but most likely a 12V Supply BTL Class B Stereo Chip. If you are lucky that will keep grounding problems to a minmum.
Certain of the difference between 47labs gear and most other commercial items which make for the look are deliberate.
Multiple small PCB's strung together with wire instead of one large PCB makes sense to me, for example. Hand soldering usually looks rarely as neat as flow soldered connections and usually makes much better connections. Small PCB's reduce the problems with vibrations and microphony.
I suspect fitting everything to a PCB conventional PCB would actually bring the effort required to make such an Amp way down. I am also almost certain Kimura San tried this first, after working with a hardwired prototype "birdsnest" and I suspect he discovere dthe simple truth - PCB's suck, sonically speaking. ;-)
One MAY argue about the "value for money" aspect of 47Lab's gear. One MAY do this for much of the High End gear sold through the usual Sales and Distribution Channels (I have some idea of dealers and distributors margins, which they BTW require to operate including the staging of Shows, the rent for the premesis and the demo stock etc.). Hence singeling 47labs out for a gripe over this seems unreasonable, if the rest of the industry is the same.
So, can we move on?
I think we now know pretty accuratly what is inside a Gaincard and Shigaraki, close enought that a very close clone should be easy, excepting the mains transformer issue, which I can assure you is critical for the sound. We know Voltages, values of passive, have good ideas about brands of most passives and know the execution of the designs. Many will also agree that few of the concepts found in GC are carried to the logical conclusion by 47labs.
So, how about we stop bashing 47labs, try to copy them and simply do our own thing, try more interesting things one can do with chip power amp's.
I for one would like to see someone make a minimalist "BiAmpliFiddler" design with LM3875 and a subtractive X-Over plus switchable suitable HF & LF EQ circuits with bridge Amp's for woofer and Tweeter to be used in activating the common 2-Way HiFi Speakers. Now for that a neat layout (grounding etc) and vestigal PCB would be great.
Or how about inverting Mode Bridge Amp's including active error canceling with layout and an input sensitivity matched to the Behringer DCX2496 Digital X-Over?
That wopuld be a great deal more constructive and helpfull to budding DIY'ers than endless 47labs bashing.
Sayonara
carlosfm said:Even a cheap 100 Euro amp looks better than this.
Does it REALLY?
Okay, all components would be on one PCB (including switches, jacks and spring clip type wire connectors.
That would LOOK neat on the outside, but usually signal & ground routing is usually awful. You would be unlikely to see a LM1875 with symmetrical supplies but most likely a 12V Supply BTL Class B Stereo Chip. If you are lucky that will keep grounding problems to a minmum.
Certain of the difference between 47labs gear and most other commercial items which make for the look are deliberate.
Multiple small PCB's strung together with wire instead of one large PCB makes sense to me, for example. Hand soldering usually looks rarely as neat as flow soldered connections and usually makes much better connections. Small PCB's reduce the problems with vibrations and microphony.
I suspect fitting everything to a PCB conventional PCB would actually bring the effort required to make such an Amp way down. I am also almost certain Kimura San tried this first, after working with a hardwired prototype "birdsnest" and I suspect he discovere dthe simple truth - PCB's suck, sonically speaking. ;-)
One MAY argue about the "value for money" aspect of 47Lab's gear. One MAY do this for much of the High End gear sold through the usual Sales and Distribution Channels (I have some idea of dealers and distributors margins, which they BTW require to operate including the staging of Shows, the rent for the premesis and the demo stock etc.). Hence singeling 47labs out for a gripe over this seems unreasonable, if the rest of the industry is the same.
So, can we move on?
I think we now know pretty accuratly what is inside a Gaincard and Shigaraki, close enought that a very close clone should be easy, excepting the mains transformer issue, which I can assure you is critical for the sound. We know Voltages, values of passive, have good ideas about brands of most passives and know the execution of the designs. Many will also agree that few of the concepts found in GC are carried to the logical conclusion by 47labs.
So, how about we stop bashing 47labs, try to copy them and simply do our own thing, try more interesting things one can do with chip power amp's.
I for one would like to see someone make a minimalist "BiAmpliFiddler" design with LM3875 and a subtractive X-Over plus switchable suitable HF & LF EQ circuits with bridge Amp's for woofer and Tweeter to be used in activating the common 2-Way HiFi Speakers. Now for that a neat layout (grounding etc) and vestigal PCB would be great.
Or how about inverting Mode Bridge Amp's including active error canceling with layout and an input sensitivity matched to the Behringer DCX2496 Digital X-Over?
That wopuld be a great deal more constructive and helpfull to budding DIY'ers than endless 47labs bashing.
Sayonara
>>excepting the mains transformer issue, which I can assure you is critical for the sound<<
Does It REALLY ?
Well having gone from this
To this
I for one not so sure about power supplies.My recent JFET amp out smarts the valve buffer by a very big margin.Deeper tighter bass,more open mids & clearer tops.
So what gives using a valve for a buffer or a power supply that could easily give you an hernia.
Does It REALLY ?
Well having gone from this
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
To this
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I for one not so sure about power supplies.My recent JFET amp out smarts the valve buffer by a very big margin.Deeper tighter bass,more open mids & clearer tops.
So what gives using a valve for a buffer or a power supply that could easily give you an hernia.
I'm not so sure about the quality of the stuff inside...but I'm darn sure if I were to do it using the same box...I would've done it P2P...plus it looks neater too...
The solder joints look terrible. Assuming normal PCB, they look like done by an absolute beginner, using worst soldering iron. It is hard to believe that they can not do better. However, this is apparently the case with any 47Lab amp (if I am allowed to, regardless of the official denial, speak about the pictures that appeared two years ago like they show the gut of the real GainCard). So, what can be the reason? Is that board normal? Maybe the copper is thicker than usually?
Pedja
Yes, probably it is that. Likely because LM1875 might have taller offset than LM3875.lohk said:
I can find these for less than (a few for) one EUR here at local bazaar (next to spinach and shoelace). Quite decent they are though. But you will have hard time to explain to long term magazine readers that none needs 1000$ for binding posts to have a “non-compromise” design.Nuuk said:Well of course it could be seen as a threat to all those who think that expensive binding posts etc actually make a difference!
Pedja
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Come on, Kuei...
Some years ago (not so many) I brought from London an AMC amp for my father.
New.
Price: 100 Euros.😀
And no spring clips, thank you.
I just gave an example of visual impact of opening a junk like this 47 Labs thing.
Anyway, for the price of a 50w Gaincard I would much prefer to spend my money on a Jeff Rowland Concentra.
That's the point.
As I said, I've heard the Gaincard and it sounds very good indeed.
With some fullrange french horn speakers.
For what is worth, with the only exception of the sloppy soldering, I think the design is well executed. To start with, when 47 labs came out using an "opamp" everyone was chuckling. The same opamp that you get in a $30 kit.
I think what is motivating the construction here is a sense of esthetics. Everything seems to be made by hand rather than machines. When you look at an Haute Couture dress closely, you notice that the stitching is sloppy in spots, hurried, nervous. But from far the cut is exquisite.
A guess here, but I think the removal of the caps' sleeves had to do as much with sound as with their looks, or removal of printed plastic where everything is aluminum and copper.
It would be interesting to get hold of one of these, and do a sound comparison with one of ours. Sound is weird, some cheap cat5 cable sometimes sounds better than a $10k esotheric gold and wood contraption.
I think what is motivating the construction here is a sense of esthetics. Everything seems to be made by hand rather than machines. When you look at an Haute Couture dress closely, you notice that the stitching is sloppy in spots, hurried, nervous. But from far the cut is exquisite.
A guess here, but I think the removal of the caps' sleeves had to do as much with sound as with their looks, or removal of printed plastic where everything is aluminum and copper.
It would be interesting to get hold of one of these, and do a sound comparison with one of ours. Sound is weird, some cheap cat5 cable sometimes sounds better than a $10k esotheric gold and wood contraption.
The circuit of the Gaincard is basically what's in the datasheet, so the credit must go first to National.
I recognize the credits to 47 Labs for making an original design, but other brands were making chip-based amps before.
Like Linn.
I'm sorry to say this, it's just my oppinion, but I make things by hand too, and those solder joints are suspitious.
Maby the man is paying non-skilled people to make the amps?🙁
Friends?
Family?
I recognize the credits to 47 Labs for making an original design, but other brands were making chip-based amps before.
Like Linn.
I'm sorry to say this, it's just my oppinion, but I make things by hand too, and those solder joints are suspitious.
Maby the man is paying non-skilled people to make the amps?🙁
Friends?
Family?
Pedja, which sounds best - the spinach or shoelace? 😀
Now I wish that I could pick up hi-fi components while I shopped for groceries!
I too wondered if the PCB had thicker than usual copper. I just cannot believe that there is no other reason for the soldering other than it is 'bad soldering'! Surely it would be financial suicide to send a product out like that (especially for a review) if there were not a good reason behind it!
Or perhaps that strange sense of humour the Japenense are renowned for is at work here. Imagine a new TV game show where the winner is the guy who can send the worst made product to the west and get them to rave about it. Stranger things have been on Japanese TV!
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