We DIY for different reasons. I personally do it to 1) save money, and 2) make something better than is commercially available. Having said that, I'm not looking for some sort of audio nirvana, as you put it. I'm looking to get the most accurate system possible. I don't want any pretty colorations in my system.
Putting it another way, I don't listen to SE EL84 amps 😉 , I prefer something like a Bryston 4BST.
Ron
Putting it another way, I don't listen to SE EL84 amps 😉 , I prefer something like a Bryston 4BST.
Ron
Loudspeaker design cookbook, by vance dickason. My favorite book. It is, however, poorly written and a bit confusing. Considered loudspeaker "bible" by many. Covers everything you need to know, crossovers, everything. If you don't buy it, or another book, I will kill you.
If this project is 2 years down the road, then why are we talking about it? What you need to do is inform yourself. As of right now you are ignorant. I was ignorant too...I got a book and I found out. You will change your mind about your project dozens of times while you find out more and more. Do not set anything in stone now, and do not buy anything until you know what you're getting. Right now, you don't know what your doing. Two tweeters? Come on.
And 18 by 25 is not a big room. Unless that is meters you're measuring in.
Any other book suggestions?
Slice, EVERYONE here is telling you to keep it simple. Do you know more than all of us combined?
I've about had it. You're not listening and you just keep repeating yourself.
slightly pissed
-andy
If this project is 2 years down the road, then why are we talking about it? What you need to do is inform yourself. As of right now you are ignorant. I was ignorant too...I got a book and I found out. You will change your mind about your project dozens of times while you find out more and more. Do not set anything in stone now, and do not buy anything until you know what you're getting. Right now, you don't know what your doing. Two tweeters? Come on.
And 18 by 25 is not a big room. Unless that is meters you're measuring in.
Any other book suggestions?
Slice, EVERYONE here is telling you to keep it simple. Do you know more than all of us combined?
I've about had it. You're not listening and you just keep repeating yourself.
slightly pissed
-andy
You insult me bostarob… who do you think you are…GOD!
I don’t consider you, as worth anything you are just a pile of **** to me…
Now I know that if you were about to spend $35,000 on a home theater I believe you would start to prepare two years in advance… you can kiss my as if you want to argue anymore about the 4 surrounds but I asked a man that I trust that probably knows more then you will ever know about home theater and speaker design… I told you guys that I am going to be doing quite a few projects before I do this… if you guys think you can go around stomping on me then you can all kiss my ***! I don’t judge you I don’t say you are stupid or ignorant… but that seems to be all you can say about me! Well guess what I am not stupid…
Or ignorant for that matter… as you clearly I asked for suggestions for books and I got them….
I don’t care what you think of me, or my project I came for help on designing, and all I got was criticism!
I am beginning to think most the elders of the forum are all ***** except for planet10…
I think he has been the most help and the most understanding…. As for the rest of you if you don’t have anything beneficial to say don’t say it! And don’t bash on me…. you don’t know me…you don’t have the right…
i know i have much to learn, but that is why i am here
I don’t consider you, as worth anything you are just a pile of **** to me…
Now I know that if you were about to spend $35,000 on a home theater I believe you would start to prepare two years in advance… you can kiss my as if you want to argue anymore about the 4 surrounds but I asked a man that I trust that probably knows more then you will ever know about home theater and speaker design… I told you guys that I am going to be doing quite a few projects before I do this… if you guys think you can go around stomping on me then you can all kiss my ***! I don’t judge you I don’t say you are stupid or ignorant… but that seems to be all you can say about me! Well guess what I am not stupid…
Or ignorant for that matter… as you clearly I asked for suggestions for books and I got them….
I don’t care what you think of me, or my project I came for help on designing, and all I got was criticism!
I am beginning to think most the elders of the forum are all ***** except for planet10…
I think he has been the most help and the most understanding…. As for the rest of you if you don’t have anything beneficial to say don’t say it! And don’t bash on me…. you don’t know me…you don’t have the right…
i know i have much to learn, but that is why i am here
We Don't Need This Kind Around Here.
Hi bostarob, I totally agree with with your last post.
Hi Dave, thanks for all of your enlightening info and your infinite patience, however for one soon to be ex-member, I feel this is all wasted.
Also your Toobz look excellent - Nicely done.
To all other contributors - transducer, Thatch_Ear, baby_huey0, Kelly McDonald and others I missed thankyou for good knowledge, experience, links etc and mature attitude and communications.
Now to 'slicemaster101'
"You insult me bostarob… who do you think you are…GOD!"
Nobody is insulting you - you are merely being told CLEARLY.
"I don’t consider you, as worth anything you are just a pile of **** to me… "
- You are destined for a sad and sorry life with attitude such as this - Better still go to your bathroom, look deeply into the mirror and repeat those words.
"I don’t judge you I don’t say you are stupid or ignorant… but that seems to be all you can say about me! Well guess what I am not stupid… Or ignorant for that matter…"
- This is an oxymoron.
"I am beginning to think most the elders of the forum are all *****..."
- You are not thinking clearly, nor behaving rationally.
"And don’t bash on me…. you don’t know me…you don’t have the right…"
- We now know you well enough, and we do have the perfect right to communicate views, ideas and experience to you in a civil and polite manner.
"i know i have much to learn, but that is why i am here"
- The first step in the learning process is to listen to the information that is given, and then digest such new information.
"I have been fighting a migraine for the past few days and ..."
- This is due to neurochemical imbalance.
Mr 17Yo slicemaster101, you are displaying all the symptoms of advanced and severe schizophrenia and require intense medical intervention - IOW you are seriously unwell.
I am not 'bashing on you' - this is given as sincere advice.
To be sure, you are not ever going to realize this audio system dream of yours, until you take care of this matter first, and with urgency.
Until then all I/We can further say to you is, **** off you ******.
Seriously pissed, Eric.
Mr slice, please go back and read over this complete thread, and note the replies made to you, and then take a very close look at the whole tone of ALL of your communications and then with deliberation and introspection analyse your mode of behaviour.
With self honesty you will indeed see that you are unwell, very unwell.
Hi bostarob, I totally agree with with your last post.
Hi Dave, thanks for all of your enlightening info and your infinite patience, however for one soon to be ex-member, I feel this is all wasted.
Also your Toobz look excellent - Nicely done.
To all other contributors - transducer, Thatch_Ear, baby_huey0, Kelly McDonald and others I missed thankyou for good knowledge, experience, links etc and mature attitude and communications.
Now to 'slicemaster101'
"You insult me bostarob… who do you think you are…GOD!"
Nobody is insulting you - you are merely being told CLEARLY.
"I don’t consider you, as worth anything you are just a pile of **** to me… "
- You are destined for a sad and sorry life with attitude such as this - Better still go to your bathroom, look deeply into the mirror and repeat those words.
"I don’t judge you I don’t say you are stupid or ignorant… but that seems to be all you can say about me! Well guess what I am not stupid… Or ignorant for that matter…"
- This is an oxymoron.
"I am beginning to think most the elders of the forum are all *****..."
- You are not thinking clearly, nor behaving rationally.
"And don’t bash on me…. you don’t know me…you don’t have the right…"
- We now know you well enough, and we do have the perfect right to communicate views, ideas and experience to you in a civil and polite manner.
"i know i have much to learn, but that is why i am here"
- The first step in the learning process is to listen to the information that is given, and then digest such new information.
"I have been fighting a migraine for the past few days and ..."
- This is due to neurochemical imbalance.
Mr 17Yo slicemaster101, you are displaying all the symptoms of advanced and severe schizophrenia and require intense medical intervention - IOW you are seriously unwell.
I am not 'bashing on you' - this is given as sincere advice.
To be sure, you are not ever going to realize this audio system dream of yours, until you take care of this matter first, and with urgency.
Until then all I/We can further say to you is, **** off you ******.
Seriously pissed, Eric.
Mr slice, please go back and read over this complete thread, and note the replies made to you, and then take a very close look at the whole tone of ALL of your communications and then with deliberation and introspection analyse your mode of behaviour.
With self honesty you will indeed see that you are unwell, very unwell.
Slice,
I know it's been said before but if you are planning to design and build a system then you should initially only consider the final audible qualities as design criterian and work from there. Completely forget about Watts and 12 speakers and so on just think about how you want the final audio to sound.
Also as has been said before, if you use efficient speakers and active crossovers, you will be able to use much smaller amps that will play just as loud sound heaps better and you may even save some $$$ in the process.
I know it's been said before but if you are planning to design and build a system then you should initially only consider the final audible qualities as design criterian and work from there. Completely forget about Watts and 12 speakers and so on just think about how you want the final audio to sound.
Also as has been said before, if you use efficient speakers and active crossovers, you will be able to use much smaller amps that will play just as loud sound heaps better and you may even save some $$$ in the process.
One way full range...
OK, if you are stumped on xovers then please, please do more research on the net. I spent many, many hours on the net and now understand them more than ever before. Although I did so much research I still didn't want an Xover ruining my sound and wanted the liveliest of all sounds. How to achieve? Simple, no crossover of any kind, a full-range speaker, a cabinet that amplifies or at least sounds like it's creating the low freqs. I changed around a few equations because I wanted a shorter speaker (Not enough wood @ the time). My speaks produce that non-centralized bass that so many people speak about, look to the right to try and localize and BAM! Now it sounds like it's coming from the left! Baroque music is perfect on the sys. (Lots and lots of organs). I'm powering them with a Technics Class A amplifier (garbage) until I build a speaker switch for my BOSE spatial receiver.
Oh yeah, for the guys that want pics of my speaks they will be posted on my site in a few days because my friend's digi-cam was lent to someone until then.
OK, if you are stumped on xovers then please, please do more research on the net. I spent many, many hours on the net and now understand them more than ever before. Although I did so much research I still didn't want an Xover ruining my sound and wanted the liveliest of all sounds. How to achieve? Simple, no crossover of any kind, a full-range speaker, a cabinet that amplifies or at least sounds like it's creating the low freqs. I changed around a few equations because I wanted a shorter speaker (Not enough wood @ the time). My speaks produce that non-centralized bass that so many people speak about, look to the right to try and localize and BAM! Now it sounds like it's coming from the left! Baroque music is perfect on the sys. (Lots and lots of organs). I'm powering them with a Technics Class A amplifier (garbage) until I build a speaker switch for my BOSE spatial receiver.
Oh yeah, for the guys that want pics of my speaks they will be posted on my site in a few days because my friend's digi-cam was lent to someone until then.
Slice:
If you know how much power you want and how many speakers you want and have a local area expert whom you trust and admire, why are you on this board asking any questions at all? You have everything you think you need at arms reach. I don't understand this😕
If you know how much power you want and how many speakers you want and have a local area expert whom you trust and admire, why are you on this board asking any questions at all? You have everything you think you need at arms reach. I don't understand this😕
I have gone over all my posts and I relies I have responded inappropriately.
I also relies that most of the responses have been unclear to my questions.
The only real help I got here was on the amps… I got no real help on driver selection besides on the tweeter and I believe that is no ones fault but my own. My expectations were too high for this place… I don’t know why I could not get the same results here as when I learned how to design and build a sub. I believe I am going to have to depend on the books for learning because most of your posts were of no use to me and the websites you suggested to hard to understand. I appreciate the gesture though. I am soon going to start a small simple 2-way system and I might ask for some advice… as for most to posts of crossovers, they were useless to me because I do not understand the terminology associated with crossovers… I had no idea what you guys were talking about…
Well I am sorry if I have given you all the wrong image of me…
Mrfeeedback you probably have lots to offer if something relevant was posted…
I didn’t ask for you to research my medical history or person history…
And to be frank it is none of your business…
From now on I would prefer that you leave my life out of it… it serves no benefit to go off topic about various things… if anything it confuses people reading the thread.
Thank you all for attempting to help…
But in the end you served no use…this being what the topic of the original post was…
Thanks,
Slice
I also relies that most of the responses have been unclear to my questions.
The only real help I got here was on the amps… I got no real help on driver selection besides on the tweeter and I believe that is no ones fault but my own. My expectations were too high for this place… I don’t know why I could not get the same results here as when I learned how to design and build a sub. I believe I am going to have to depend on the books for learning because most of your posts were of no use to me and the websites you suggested to hard to understand. I appreciate the gesture though. I am soon going to start a small simple 2-way system and I might ask for some advice… as for most to posts of crossovers, they were useless to me because I do not understand the terminology associated with crossovers… I had no idea what you guys were talking about…
Well I am sorry if I have given you all the wrong image of me…
Mrfeeedback you probably have lots to offer if something relevant was posted…
I didn’t ask for you to research my medical history or person history…
And to be frank it is none of your business…
From now on I would prefer that you leave my life out of it… it serves no benefit to go off topic about various things… if anything it confuses people reading the thread.
Thank you all for attempting to help…
But in the end you served no use…this being what the topic of the original post was…
Thanks,
Slice
Ron,
We evedently do have different aims in mind for DIY. I DIYed my 6BQ5 SE amp, my cables and my interconnects. The speakers I built do not need 250 watts to drive them and I don't need something that will play extremely loud for long periods of time. I do try to avoid coloration of any type pretty or not. The clarity of the mids and highs are better than any SS amp I have heard and I do get out to the specialy shops and listen to the Krells,Macs, B&Ws and Martin Logans, Maggies with all the big buck cabling you can shake a divining rod at. I just happen to like tubes better than SS but will use SS where it doesn't matter because I can buy it used for dirt cheap. And my main amp now is a 300B/6SL7 SRRP Homebrew that I didn't build but have worked on. I do like to watch movies and my center is a DIY front loaded folded horn with a 15" woofer from the 50s drivin by a 6L6 PP amp from the 50s I rebuilt. The mids and highs are from JansZen Elecrostats I am going to rebuild and they are driven by a tweaked 7868 PP built by Fisher. As soon as I get around to rebuilding a Dyna preamp I will build some subs with Adire Shivas and drive those with a Carver Cube I got for free. I am sure our tastes in music differ and what we want out of our systems is different because of that, I was only pointing out that you do not have to have test gear designed for speakers to be able to stuff them correctly. Besides that, why do you put complete faith in software somebody else wrote? It doesn't have to be right. Using other peoples expierence as a guide line got me close and after that it was just tweaking. If you did any tweaking at all then you did the same as me only with a microphone to reinforce what your ears told you.😀 Something Slice doesn't seem to want to deal with. I wonder if the man he trusts so much is the one selling him the amps? Or is an installer that gets to keep a percentage of the sale of said equip, cables etc?
We evedently do have different aims in mind for DIY. I DIYed my 6BQ5 SE amp, my cables and my interconnects. The speakers I built do not need 250 watts to drive them and I don't need something that will play extremely loud for long periods of time. I do try to avoid coloration of any type pretty or not. The clarity of the mids and highs are better than any SS amp I have heard and I do get out to the specialy shops and listen to the Krells,Macs, B&Ws and Martin Logans, Maggies with all the big buck cabling you can shake a divining rod at. I just happen to like tubes better than SS but will use SS where it doesn't matter because I can buy it used for dirt cheap. And my main amp now is a 300B/6SL7 SRRP Homebrew that I didn't build but have worked on. I do like to watch movies and my center is a DIY front loaded folded horn with a 15" woofer from the 50s drivin by a 6L6 PP amp from the 50s I rebuilt. The mids and highs are from JansZen Elecrostats I am going to rebuild and they are driven by a tweaked 7868 PP built by Fisher. As soon as I get around to rebuilding a Dyna preamp I will build some subs with Adire Shivas and drive those with a Carver Cube I got for free. I am sure our tastes in music differ and what we want out of our systems is different because of that, I was only pointing out that you do not have to have test gear designed for speakers to be able to stuff them correctly. Besides that, why do you put complete faith in software somebody else wrote? It doesn't have to be right. Using other peoples expierence as a guide line got me close and after that it was just tweaking. If you did any tweaking at all then you did the same as me only with a microphone to reinforce what your ears told you.😀 Something Slice doesn't seem to want to deal with. I wonder if the man he trusts so much is the one selling him the amps? Or is an installer that gets to keep a percentage of the sale of said equip, cables etc?
Slice,
If your questions were answered in ways that confused you it is because you did not have enough background to understand. Realizing your confusion, alternatives to what you had in mind were suggested because in our experience what you were seeking was not going to happen. What you had in mind often was overkill and served no purpose at all. And to tell you the truth using large drivers for small sound effects that will be used seldom is overkill and because of the size of the room could adversly effect the sound from the drivers that count. Small amounts of information require something that is good enough to get the info out into the room without distortion period. Everything else is a waste of money and time. While you can start planning your speakers now the electronics will be out of date in 2 years. So if you want monster amps set your sites higher and buy used. Good gear sounds good used too, so get twice as good for the same money. Go visit Rec Audio Opinion at <www.google.com> and try posting a few times. Have fun!
If your questions were answered in ways that confused you it is because you did not have enough background to understand. Realizing your confusion, alternatives to what you had in mind were suggested because in our experience what you were seeking was not going to happen. What you had in mind often was overkill and served no purpose at all. And to tell you the truth using large drivers for small sound effects that will be used seldom is overkill and because of the size of the room could adversly effect the sound from the drivers that count. Small amounts of information require something that is good enough to get the info out into the room without distortion period. Everything else is a waste of money and time. While you can start planning your speakers now the electronics will be out of date in 2 years. So if you want monster amps set your sites higher and buy used. Good gear sounds good used too, so get twice as good for the same money. Go visit Rec Audio Opinion at <www.google.com> and try posting a few times. Have fun!
This is the first time I've ever actually posted to this forum, although I've been reading it for quite some time.
My comments are sort of in line with what Thatch_Ear has to say. The pursuit of 'more watts' has been going on forever, but I primarily find soldiers of this war to be the type that go to buy their stereo system from places like Best Buy or Radio Shack.
My pursuit was initially this, but then I came to the realization that I'd prefer to pursue high efficiency loudspeakers, then I'd be able to pump into them very little amounts of (superbly clean!) power for equivalent SPL's.
I eventually finished this pursuit yesterday, building a pair of rear-loaded horns that are about 99 dB/1W@1m SPL. My little 1626 amp puts out 1.5 Wpc and I have to plug my ears when I turn the volume knob past 1/2.
I think I've finally achieved audio nirvana, and it didn't require 10,000 watts of ear-splitting power.
My humble $0.02,
b
(For those curious, the speaker design is http://melhuish.org/audio/diy14.htm and a picture of my speakers during construction can be found here: http://www.morphism.org/speaker/unfinished2/finished-enclosure.jpg)
My comments are sort of in line with what Thatch_Ear has to say. The pursuit of 'more watts' has been going on forever, but I primarily find soldiers of this war to be the type that go to buy their stereo system from places like Best Buy or Radio Shack.
My pursuit was initially this, but then I came to the realization that I'd prefer to pursue high efficiency loudspeakers, then I'd be able to pump into them very little amounts of (superbly clean!) power for equivalent SPL's.
I eventually finished this pursuit yesterday, building a pair of rear-loaded horns that are about 99 dB/1W@1m SPL. My little 1626 amp puts out 1.5 Wpc and I have to plug my ears when I turn the volume knob past 1/2.
I think I've finally achieved audio nirvana, and it didn't require 10,000 watts of ear-splitting power.
My humble $0.02,
b
(For those curious, the speaker design is http://melhuish.org/audio/diy14.htm and a picture of my speakers during construction can be found here: http://www.morphism.org/speaker/unfinished2/finished-enclosure.jpg)
Slice;
You are giving up way to early. The people here know what they are talking about! But you need to know the basics before you can completely understand exactly what they are talking about. Your first post was just over a week ago, its hard to expect to know how to build speakers after that much time. Like anything you have to read and listen to learn. I've been reading for over a year and I'm still learning about crossovers, I asked someone nicely and they helped to design mine.
I would recommend some drivers etc to you but I don't have that much experience with different drivers. You also should listen to the comments made about rear speakers. It is true that there is very little sound coming out of them. If I remember correctly you usually don't get anything below 100Hz in the rear channels. So building the same as the fronts is overkill. I think that using the multiple speakers per sides in the rears would be kinda cool. To me it would be more like a theatre, with like 12 speakers throughout the room.
In my speakers I used all Seas drivers. They are three ways basically designed off ofthe eVe II and the Wilson Watts/Puppys. I am using the Seas 25TAC/D 1" tweet, P17REX for midrange, and P21REX for lows. I have yet to finish them so I can't really explain the sound yet, but AFAIK they are good drivers.
Do some research on the net about crossovers, read as much as possible. It will all come in time, but never in a week. Also try this:
It will help in trying to find some good drivers.
http://www.snippets.org/ldsg/intro.php3
This site has tuns on everything electrical and a bunch on crossovers.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm
Some other speakers examples are at:
http://www.speakerbuilding.com
Next time you ask a question in this form try to have patience and not call everyone useless like you already have. You may have a problem getting a reply from others less forgiving.
You are giving up way to early. The people here know what they are talking about! But you need to know the basics before you can completely understand exactly what they are talking about. Your first post was just over a week ago, its hard to expect to know how to build speakers after that much time. Like anything you have to read and listen to learn. I've been reading for over a year and I'm still learning about crossovers, I asked someone nicely and they helped to design mine.
I would recommend some drivers etc to you but I don't have that much experience with different drivers. You also should listen to the comments made about rear speakers. It is true that there is very little sound coming out of them. If I remember correctly you usually don't get anything below 100Hz in the rear channels. So building the same as the fronts is overkill. I think that using the multiple speakers per sides in the rears would be kinda cool. To me it would be more like a theatre, with like 12 speakers throughout the room.
In my speakers I used all Seas drivers. They are three ways basically designed off ofthe eVe II and the Wilson Watts/Puppys. I am using the Seas 25TAC/D 1" tweet, P17REX for midrange, and P21REX for lows. I have yet to finish them so I can't really explain the sound yet, but AFAIK they are good drivers.
Do some research on the net about crossovers, read as much as possible. It will all come in time, but never in a week. Also try this:
It will help in trying to find some good drivers.
http://www.snippets.org/ldsg/intro.php3
This site has tuns on everything electrical and a bunch on crossovers.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm
Some other speakers examples are at:
http://www.speakerbuilding.com
Next time you ask a question in this form try to have patience and not call everyone useless like you already have. You may have a problem getting a reply from others less forgiving.
Slice:
Just a suggestion for when your reading, find yourself a small amp and give it a listen. Most people would be shocked to learn how loud 10 watts actually is. Using the formula Watts = volts squared/ resistance you can measure the ac voltage at the speaker posts when the amp is playing, square it and then divide by your speakers resistance and that is how many watts the amp is putting out. In your room you will not be able to shout over 20 watts. You couldn't even talk over 10 watts. I listen to my stereo around 1 or 2 watts, and that is plenty loud. The only thing anyone here will ever be guilty of is steering people away from the hype. We may not always go about it in the right way but most everyone here knows that manufacturures lie on spec sheets. If they don't lie then they give misleading specs. It started as soon as the transistor was born and it was fueled by illinformed people who believed that more power is a sign of quality. The more power you crank out of an amp the harder it gets to keep it sounding good. Corners must be cut because the competition is fierce. It's a situation that is not conducive to quality. That is why we build our own. We control the quality that way and we bullet proof where it counts and not because of neccesity. It does take a modest effort on your part to become somewhat familiar with what you want to do. You have plenty of time so relax and enjoy that's what it's all about.😎
Just a suggestion for when your reading, find yourself a small amp and give it a listen. Most people would be shocked to learn how loud 10 watts actually is. Using the formula Watts = volts squared/ resistance you can measure the ac voltage at the speaker posts when the amp is playing, square it and then divide by your speakers resistance and that is how many watts the amp is putting out. In your room you will not be able to shout over 20 watts. You couldn't even talk over 10 watts. I listen to my stereo around 1 or 2 watts, and that is plenty loud. The only thing anyone here will ever be guilty of is steering people away from the hype. We may not always go about it in the right way but most everyone here knows that manufacturures lie on spec sheets. If they don't lie then they give misleading specs. It started as soon as the transistor was born and it was fueled by illinformed people who believed that more power is a sign of quality. The more power you crank out of an amp the harder it gets to keep it sounding good. Corners must be cut because the competition is fierce. It's a situation that is not conducive to quality. That is why we build our own. We control the quality that way and we bullet proof where it counts and not because of neccesity. It does take a modest effort on your part to become somewhat familiar with what you want to do. You have plenty of time so relax and enjoy that's what it's all about.😎
<i>Sigh...</i>
Seems to happen about once every six months...we get someone who wants to run before they can walk, and they get frustrated when people tell them things they don't want to hear. Frustration leads to anger, anger leads to hate...hate leads to suffering...
Okay, enough of the Yoda stuff.
Slice, there's a lot involved in designing a decent piece of audio gear, whether it's a speaker, an amp, a preamp...whatever. It would be nice if you could just waltz in and build a really nifty item just by putting things in a bowl and stirring them around, but it doesn't work that way. Yes, you'd end up with a speaker. Yes, sound would come out. But would it be good in the absolute sense? No.
I'm short on time and haven't read every post, but I sampled widely on the way in, and most of the information I saw looked good to me. Your reaction to it, however, doesn't show a lot of maturity. A post repeating PLEASE HELP, PLEASE HELP over and over isn't exactly the ultimate show of manners. People here are volunteering their time and knowledge for free. You should not whine, and you cannot demand something for free. It's rude. By initiating the thread, you requested help, but if others don't come thronging through the door, trying to lay the world at your feet, perhaps it's because you're pushing them away.
The general policy here is that we'll help you if you help yourself, meaning that you need to take some responsibility for educating yourself about the terms and concepts involved in whatever part of audio interests you. No one can put that knowledge into your head by telepathy. You're going to have to learn it, bit by bit. It will take a while. You say that you won't be starting this project for a while. Fine. But then you get angry when you can't assimilate all the knowledge instantly. This rather gives the impression that--regardless of when glue first touches wood--you're a pretty impatient person.
Slow down. Don't get freaked because there's more to this than buying a few parts and slapping them together with Scotch tape. Learn the basics. Read books. Lots of books, not just one. Hang out and watch other projects get built.
The idea is to learn and have fun, not start screaming and cussing at people when they suggest keeping it simple because you're just beginning. If you ask for advice in the title of your thread, don't get mad when you get it. By and large, I think most of the advice you received was sound. It's your reception of it that is questionable.
Grey
(the moderator)
Seems to happen about once every six months...we get someone who wants to run before they can walk, and they get frustrated when people tell them things they don't want to hear. Frustration leads to anger, anger leads to hate...hate leads to suffering...
Okay, enough of the Yoda stuff.
Slice, there's a lot involved in designing a decent piece of audio gear, whether it's a speaker, an amp, a preamp...whatever. It would be nice if you could just waltz in and build a really nifty item just by putting things in a bowl and stirring them around, but it doesn't work that way. Yes, you'd end up with a speaker. Yes, sound would come out. But would it be good in the absolute sense? No.
I'm short on time and haven't read every post, but I sampled widely on the way in, and most of the information I saw looked good to me. Your reaction to it, however, doesn't show a lot of maturity. A post repeating PLEASE HELP, PLEASE HELP over and over isn't exactly the ultimate show of manners. People here are volunteering their time and knowledge for free. You should not whine, and you cannot demand something for free. It's rude. By initiating the thread, you requested help, but if others don't come thronging through the door, trying to lay the world at your feet, perhaps it's because you're pushing them away.
The general policy here is that we'll help you if you help yourself, meaning that you need to take some responsibility for educating yourself about the terms and concepts involved in whatever part of audio interests you. No one can put that knowledge into your head by telepathy. You're going to have to learn it, bit by bit. It will take a while. You say that you won't be starting this project for a while. Fine. But then you get angry when you can't assimilate all the knowledge instantly. This rather gives the impression that--regardless of when glue first touches wood--you're a pretty impatient person.
Slow down. Don't get freaked because there's more to this than buying a few parts and slapping them together with Scotch tape. Learn the basics. Read books. Lots of books, not just one. Hang out and watch other projects get built.
The idea is to learn and have fun, not start screaming and cussing at people when they suggest keeping it simple because you're just beginning. If you ask for advice in the title of your thread, don't get mad when you get it. By and large, I think most of the advice you received was sound. It's your reception of it that is questionable.
Grey
(the moderator)
Thatch_Ear said:
Since slice seems to have given up on us, we might as well completely co-opt this thread... actually i hope he reconsiders and finds something useful in the meanders...
I too have an EL84 SE as main amp -- not DIY (yet*) just a dumpster diver amp off eBay that i hacked unnecessary bits out of (and let some smoke out of too). Even in its current state it has something magic and a synergy with my BD-Pipes way out of proportion to their (VERY) modest cost (about 10% of the whole system cost) -- replacing kit that cost over 10x as much. I don't know if it is better in the more accurate sense, but i'm listening to more music and enjoying it more, so it is a winner in my mind (and i get so excited knowing that better bits in the same vein are at hand -- humans seem best when there are new worlds to explore -- after 30 years it is invigorating to find a new unexplored avenue).
This is helped out mightily with a pr of dual 8" woofer boxes driven by a sturdy -- mid-hi-end-at-the-time -- SS amp. If budget ever allows a pr of Bryston 4BSTs (or if a couple fall off the truck -- if & when we get our cinemas rolling this amp is probably going to be a workhorse -- "Don, another dozen 4Bs please") will take over in this role. *I have a set of HUGE (AudioNote-size) East German OPTs for another SE EL84 amp, and the bit bits for a forced symettry EL84 PP amp that will hopefully get out of the "wish i had time stage", onto the bench and into my LR.
Well, at least that is an appropriate price. Your experience may differ from mine, but you may well find that too expensive. When these were new, we brought a few in. One day with nothing else to do, we did some comparisons with an NAD 3020 (into a very benign load of baby Magnapans). After we determined that the NAD played louder before audible clipping and sounded better to boot, we didn't bring in anymore, and almost had to give them away (fortunately -- from an inventory perspective only -- there are always some customers for whom the numbers are more important). BTW because of failed Caps an NAD 7020 (receiver version of 3020) was pressed into service as a sub amp (driving a single Shiva) in my HT and has been doing a stand-out job -- good enuff that the repairs on the regular amp have been much delayed.
dave
Slicemaster if you're still there...
As others said, you gave up too soon. Don't leave, these people are trying to help.
I suggest you do an interim project to get used to speaker building before you go all-out. Build a popular kit speaker and power it with a nice little amp and you will learn a lot.
By spending $40 on a good book and $500 on a pre-designed DIY starter system, you will learn so much more. The investment will pay for itself in this way. I suggest the Adire Kit281, which I own though there are many other excellent kits out there for every price point. The cabinets and crossovers are already designed for you. For $369 you get the drivers, pre-assembled crossovers, and everything else you need to build a pair of very decent speakers (which will blow away anything with the drivers you've mentioned). Buy a nice little 50-100w receiver or integrated amp from Audiogon or Ebay.
You may scoff at this, saying - oh, those speakers can't go loud - oh, that amp's only 60 watts, etc... but you may be very surprised about the loudness.
You'll also be able to start listening for the qualities you want in the system you'll be designing in the future for your super HT. Is a good soundstage important to you? Smooth midrange quality? High volume capability?
Honestly, you should consider this idea. If anything, what you learn from the money you spend on an interim project will pay for itself in the form of a better final result when you make your big theater system. Thanks.
As others said, you gave up too soon. Don't leave, these people are trying to help.
I suggest you do an interim project to get used to speaker building before you go all-out. Build a popular kit speaker and power it with a nice little amp and you will learn a lot.
By spending $40 on a good book and $500 on a pre-designed DIY starter system, you will learn so much more. The investment will pay for itself in this way. I suggest the Adire Kit281, which I own though there are many other excellent kits out there for every price point. The cabinets and crossovers are already designed for you. For $369 you get the drivers, pre-assembled crossovers, and everything else you need to build a pair of very decent speakers (which will blow away anything with the drivers you've mentioned). Buy a nice little 50-100w receiver or integrated amp from Audiogon or Ebay.
You may scoff at this, saying - oh, those speakers can't go loud - oh, that amp's only 60 watts, etc... but you may be very surprised about the loudness.
You'll also be able to start listening for the qualities you want in the system you'll be designing in the future for your super HT. Is a good soundstage important to you? Smooth midrange quality? High volume capability?
Honestly, you should consider this idea. If anything, what you learn from the money you spend on an interim project will pay for itself in the form of a better final result when you make your big theater system. Thanks.
Dave,
FFT impulse measurement systems aren't that difficult, every engineer learns how to do the calculations by hand in school. Every decent speaker manufacturer uses a variaton of the kind of software/hardware that I am using. You obviously don't understand what this kind of software is all about. That's okay, I didn't either until I started using it alot. There is no faith required, it is accurate and precise, provided you know how to use it properly ( a not so easy task ).
Nope, I'd trust my instruments before I trusted my ears 😛 Putting a speaker into a room and tuning it by ear, what are you "tuning" to? What is your reference? How do you know you're not compensating for some messed up recording? You're surely not tuning the speaker using pink noise. How do you know that you're not compensating for room problems? Etc. etc. Jonathan Carr the designer of Scan Tech cartridges and Connoisseur Definitions preamps once told me that he could design an amplifier without ever listening to it, only by measurements. This from a guy who builds $30K preamps that can only be bought in Japan by crazy ultra philes. You just need to know what to measure, and how to interpret it.
Please understand that this is what I believe, how I think, and I certainly don't expect everyone else to think the same. But I'm coming from a very long background in audio, I've tried a lot of different things, I've spoken and worked with many designers. Some of the things I've had? How about SE 2A3 amps driving Altec Voice of the Theatre speakers? You want glorious midrange? It had it. Highs and lows sucked though. Quad ESL 63s. Ultra low distortion, no fatigue, imaged like crazy, super transparent. Uninvolving! Ariels (well, I've already talked about those!). Various other DIY designs, currently a small 2 way speaker that measures extremely flat from 50-20kHz. Run with a Rotel amp, DIY ss preamp, analogue and CD. I've built preamps, D/As, tube amps (2A3/ EL34 PP), interconnects and speaker wire. Modded a bunch of things. Well, that's my background. I've gone the whole gamut from objectivist measurement type, to subjectivist tweaker and now back to the objectivism. It's where I'm staying for the moment 🙂
Ron
FFT impulse measurement systems aren't that difficult, every engineer learns how to do the calculations by hand in school. Every decent speaker manufacturer uses a variaton of the kind of software/hardware that I am using. You obviously don't understand what this kind of software is all about. That's okay, I didn't either until I started using it alot. There is no faith required, it is accurate and precise, provided you know how to use it properly ( a not so easy task ).
Nope, I'd trust my instruments before I trusted my ears 😛 Putting a speaker into a room and tuning it by ear, what are you "tuning" to? What is your reference? How do you know you're not compensating for some messed up recording? You're surely not tuning the speaker using pink noise. How do you know that you're not compensating for room problems? Etc. etc. Jonathan Carr the designer of Scan Tech cartridges and Connoisseur Definitions preamps once told me that he could design an amplifier without ever listening to it, only by measurements. This from a guy who builds $30K preamps that can only be bought in Japan by crazy ultra philes. You just need to know what to measure, and how to interpret it.
Please understand that this is what I believe, how I think, and I certainly don't expect everyone else to think the same. But I'm coming from a very long background in audio, I've tried a lot of different things, I've spoken and worked with many designers. Some of the things I've had? How about SE 2A3 amps driving Altec Voice of the Theatre speakers? You want glorious midrange? It had it. Highs and lows sucked though. Quad ESL 63s. Ultra low distortion, no fatigue, imaged like crazy, super transparent. Uninvolving! Ariels (well, I've already talked about those!). Various other DIY designs, currently a small 2 way speaker that measures extremely flat from 50-20kHz. Run with a Rotel amp, DIY ss preamp, analogue and CD. I've built preamps, D/As, tube amps (2A3/ EL34 PP), interconnects and speaker wire. Modded a bunch of things. Well, that's my background. I've gone the whole gamut from objectivist measurement type, to subjectivist tweaker and now back to the objectivism. It's where I'm staying for the moment 🙂
Ron
hi slicemaster
ok....here's the deal.....CROWN AMPLIFIERS ARE SOME OF THE BEST AMPLIFIERS IN THE WORLD IN ENGINEERING TERMS AND SONIC TERMS..........I HAVE STUDIED MR GERALD STANLEYS DESIGNS FROM FIRST PRINCIPALS, AND BUILT A FEW MODIFIED VERSIONS......PLEASE IGNORE THOSE WHO CRITICISE BRANDS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR PRO WORK.......CROWN HAS BEEN AT THE CUTTING EDGE OF ANALOGUE POWER DESIGN SINCE YEAR DOT......
TAKE MY WORD FOR IT.....THE CURRENT 'FULLY BALANCED' RANGE FROM KRELL TAKES MANY A DESIGN CUE FROM MR STANLEY'S WORK......
WORD OF ADVICE :LISTEN TO SELECTED AMP. WITH YOUR PREFERED SPEAKERS BEFORE SPENDING MONEY........I BET YOU'LL LOVE THE CROWNS....ROBUST AS HELL, ENGINEERED TO A 'T', WITH SOUND QUALITY TO MUCH.....AND NO, I DO NOT WORK FOR CROWN, NEVER HAVE.....
I FULLY UNDERSTAND YOUR FRUSTRATION WITH SUBJECTIVIST 'AUDIOPHILES', WHO CRITICISE WITHOUT ADUCING ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIER CLAIMS, AND/OR ALLEGATIONS......PAR FOR THE COURSE I AM AFRAID......
ok....here's the deal.....CROWN AMPLIFIERS ARE SOME OF THE BEST AMPLIFIERS IN THE WORLD IN ENGINEERING TERMS AND SONIC TERMS..........I HAVE STUDIED MR GERALD STANLEYS DESIGNS FROM FIRST PRINCIPALS, AND BUILT A FEW MODIFIED VERSIONS......PLEASE IGNORE THOSE WHO CRITICISE BRANDS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR PRO WORK.......CROWN HAS BEEN AT THE CUTTING EDGE OF ANALOGUE POWER DESIGN SINCE YEAR DOT......
TAKE MY WORD FOR IT.....THE CURRENT 'FULLY BALANCED' RANGE FROM KRELL TAKES MANY A DESIGN CUE FROM MR STANLEY'S WORK......
WORD OF ADVICE :LISTEN TO SELECTED AMP. WITH YOUR PREFERED SPEAKERS BEFORE SPENDING MONEY........I BET YOU'LL LOVE THE CROWNS....ROBUST AS HELL, ENGINEERED TO A 'T', WITH SOUND QUALITY TO MUCH.....AND NO, I DO NOT WORK FOR CROWN, NEVER HAVE.....
I FULLY UNDERSTAND YOUR FRUSTRATION WITH SUBJECTIVIST 'AUDIOPHILES', WHO CRITICISE WITHOUT ADUCING ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIER CLAIMS, AND/OR ALLEGATIONS......PAR FOR THE COURSE I AM AFRAID......
MikeK:
Although I did not voice any opinion on any particular equipment, I did manage to bash all the spec forging, bending, smearing, tweaking companies out there who use these tactics to strongarm people who don't know any better. I did not exclude crown from this list for the simple fact that I used to sell them and many others. I'm not saying anything is crap and neither did anyone else here that I can recall without looking back. What was mentioned was that one does not need live sound rienforcement gear to run HT in their living room. There are other units that will do the job better and more reasonably. My favorite amp specs were the ones (and their all guilty) that ran down to 3000 watts or higher into 2 ohms. And all this power with a 120 volt plug on the back that would be plugged into a 2400 watt max outlet by an unsuspecting consumer. Wouldn't that be a perpetual motion machine?😕
Although I did not voice any opinion on any particular equipment, I did manage to bash all the spec forging, bending, smearing, tweaking companies out there who use these tactics to strongarm people who don't know any better. I did not exclude crown from this list for the simple fact that I used to sell them and many others. I'm not saying anything is crap and neither did anyone else here that I can recall without looking back. What was mentioned was that one does not need live sound rienforcement gear to run HT in their living room. There are other units that will do the job better and more reasonably. My favorite amp specs were the ones (and their all guilty) that ran down to 3000 watts or higher into 2 ohms. And all this power with a 120 volt plug on the back that would be plugged into a 2400 watt max outlet by an unsuspecting consumer. Wouldn't that be a perpetual motion machine?😕
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