Black cube technical data:
Sensitivity for output level 775 mV/ 0 dB (with activated high gain jumper)
Gain 1 kHz
Maximum input level 1 kHz
Signal to noise ratio (RMS unweighted)
MM: 3.8 mV/1 kHz; MC: 0.38 mV/1 kHz
MM: 46 dB; MC: 66 dB
MM: 45 mV; MC: 4,5 mV
MM: 71 dB; MC: 63 dB
Gain
36 dB, 46 dB, 56 dB, 66 dB
Channel separation
> 85 dB at 10 kHz
Input impedance
47 kohms, 1 kohm, 100 ohms
1 x custom load
1 x hardwire slot
Output impedance: 47 ohms
Input capacitance: 100 pF
Channel mismatch: typ. 0.5 dB
Bass filter: 50 Hz, 6 dB/o
Sensitivity for output level 775 mV/ 0 dB (with activated high gain jumper)
Gain 1 kHz
Maximum input level 1 kHz
Signal to noise ratio (RMS unweighted)
MM: 3.8 mV/1 kHz; MC: 0.38 mV/1 kHz
MM: 46 dB; MC: 66 dB
MM: 45 mV; MC: 4,5 mV
MM: 71 dB; MC: 63 dB
Gain
36 dB, 46 dB, 56 dB, 66 dB
Channel separation
> 85 dB at 10 kHz
Input impedance
47 kohms, 1 kohm, 100 ohms
1 x custom load
1 x hardwire slot
Output impedance: 47 ohms
Input capacitance: 100 pF
Channel mismatch: typ. 0.5 dB
Bass filter: 50 Hz, 6 dB/o
@Bigun: If my current (delayed) project works MM response should be flat to >100kHz. That's with 150Ohm cartridge load 🙂
Subsonics is interesting. All systems resonanate. The cartridge will resonate with the arm playing a silent groove. This resonance could be only 20dB down on the wanted music in quiet passages. Not audible per say, but causes woofer wobble and interesting out of phase responses that might contribute to the soundstage people claim for vinyl. This is due to the fact that low frequencies are mono on an LP but the resonances create anti-phase signals that were not there in the groove.
Hang on you say, how can a 10Hz resonance affect the audio band? Simple you are modulating the carrier. Gives you that 'phat' analog sound if you like it that way. Is a pain if you want fidelity. It can only be really cured by damping.
Electrically the subsonics will eat into your available power and may, if you are underpowered cause early clipping of the amplifier. However when I actually looked at a vinyl rip and messed around with filtering it, there was nothing obvious in the waveforms. Needs more work, but at least one person I trust has needed a steep subsonic filter to keep his (low power) amplifiers happy.
Subsonics is interesting. All systems resonanate. The cartridge will resonate with the arm playing a silent groove. This resonance could be only 20dB down on the wanted music in quiet passages. Not audible per say, but causes woofer wobble and interesting out of phase responses that might contribute to the soundstage people claim for vinyl. This is due to the fact that low frequencies are mono on an LP but the resonances create anti-phase signals that were not there in the groove.
Hang on you say, how can a 10Hz resonance affect the audio band? Simple you are modulating the carrier. Gives you that 'phat' analog sound if you like it that way. Is a pain if you want fidelity. It can only be really cured by damping.
Electrically the subsonics will eat into your available power and may, if you are underpowered cause early clipping of the amplifier. However when I actually looked at a vinyl rip and messed around with filtering it, there was nothing obvious in the waveforms. Needs more work, but at least one person I trust has needed a steep subsonic filter to keep his (low power) amplifiers happy.
imho, I think now we have more information, with the Aiwa AP2400 you cannot get good dynamics.
The turntable is very limited... I good phono stage wouldn't matter too much. A good upgrade path is to change turntable.
My brother uses a sony turn table, cannot compare the dynamics with a heavy vinyl platter with perimeter belt system.
The turntable is very limited... I good phono stage wouldn't matter too much. A good upgrade path is to change turntable.
My brother uses a sony turn table, cannot compare the dynamics with a heavy vinyl platter with perimeter belt system.
I don‘t think that the Aiwa is that bad. A belt driven tt has a more lush presentation unless you spend some serious money. And then, this money would be better spend in a good upper class model of some japanese brand like technics, sony, denon, jvc etc. from the late 80ies. Some of them can make use from another plinth (denon dp80), some are deeply integrated (the big kenwoods)
Their high technological standard is unmatched today or costs silly money (look at the Technics 1200GAE, for instance)
Their high technological standard is unmatched today or costs silly money (look at the Technics 1200GAE, for instance)
"How to get good dynamics in phono stage?" - if only it were public knowledge...
But it is more like trial and error, IMHO. There are some design and construction guidelines, though.
But it is more like trial and error, IMHO. There are some design and construction guidelines, though.
Anything which genuinely modifies dynamics must be faulty (unless intended to be an expander), so therefore it makes sense to look for other effects which might give the impression of modifying dynamics.Onvinyl said:
No. Have you ever compared a master tape side-by-side with a domestic audio system, with no peeking allowed?
This can cause overload problems. The first stage should be of moderate gain: enough to improve noise, not enough to create clipping before the low pass filter.
If modified dynamics is at play, I agree. But I was more referring to my observation that the more accurate the system, the more joy subjektivly.
Believe me, you would not ask that question if you had heard some. The most sophisticated comparison I had was with a Horch Audio phono pre, Schroeder Reference arm and a myabi cart and a capable diy TT, and it was no match for a mastertape copy of the same material through a Telefunken M15A reel-to-reel. More slam, more transparancy, more joy. The system was carefully matched within 0.1dB, but no real dblt (I closed my eyes but I guess that does not count in your book...)
Well, within reason of course. Overload is no concern, because the 2.12 khz pole should sit in that first stage.
If we follow the reasoning that more neutral/dull circuits are more accurate then eventually we will listen to live, acoustic music and be forced to conclude that it is unrealistic. 😀
Given the number of people that complain that live music doesn't sound like hifi, driving a lot of classical venues to put in re-inforcement systems I think this has already, sadly come to pass.
Why am I not surprised? Maybe they should install headphone sockets and small screens in the seats so everyone can have a tailored (anti)social experience
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Yes, a poorly architected venue can certainly harm the music. But somewhere in that orchestra there is real music at play. 🙂
So with expert miking and excellent recording, you could capture a better musical experience than you experience in a bad seat in a bad venue. But there is loss in the recording process and, in my experience, huge loss in the home hifi system. I wonder (actually I don't) whether people realise just how little of the music that is captured on their LPs and CDs/WAVs they actually get to hear on their "hifis"? I don't mean just the sounds but the whole musical experience.
So with expert miking and excellent recording, you could capture a better musical experience than you experience in a bad seat in a bad venue. But there is loss in the recording process and, in my experience, huge loss in the home hifi system. I wonder (actually I don't) whether people realise just how little of the music that is captured on their LPs and CDs/WAVs they actually get to hear on their "hifis"? I don't mean just the sounds but the whole musical experience.
Can't speak for others, but I go to concerts and understand the 'experience' that goes around it. This cannot be replicated at home whatever you do.
When HiFi becomes magical;-)))
Not per THD or TMD or frequency-response or oscillation or transients or other simple looking-measurable values;-)
Not per THD or TMD or frequency-response or oscillation or transients or other simple looking-measurable values;-)
@billshurv Linn did some experiment along these lines. In their spacious listening room they had a blindfolded audience listen to a live performer and then to a live recording of that performer in the same room on their best system. I can't recall whether the performer sang or played an instrument.
Naturally, the audience could tell which was the live performance without any trouble at all. And so could we all. Our hearing is, in my opinion, extremely discerning (or Linn is rubbish 😀). I think we just get used to how poor home hifi is and our expectations get set low.
Naturally, the audience could tell which was the live performance without any trouble at all. And so could we all. Our hearing is, in my opinion, extremely discerning (or Linn is rubbish 😀). I think we just get used to how poor home hifi is and our expectations get set low.
If that is what you find, then you may be a hi-fi fan.Onvinyl said:
Less hi-fi?
More hi-fi?
Sorry, I thought you said that you wanted a passive rolloff between the first stage and the second stage. 'In the first stage' means an active feedback rolloff.
Some people already are of this opinion. They want live music modified so it sounds like their domestic audio system, which they wrongly think is hi-fi.traderbam said:
The medium captures the sounds reasonably well, and a good domestic system can portray them reasonably well. What is lacking is the rest of the experience: getting to and from the venue, queueing for the loo/refreshments/car park, the child in the seat behind rustling sweets/kicking your chair, the Friday/Saturday night noisy audience who applaud between movements etc. No phono preamp can deliver that.traderbam said:
2 channel capture the sounds, but a whole pile of locational information is missing or folded back in. As for the experience, you are missing the joy of enjoying the music with wife/family, which for me is the best part of seeing real music live.
Riiight. I think you are looking in the wrong place. HiFi can never become magical unless you take mind expanding drugs.
When a master tape is cut, the first thing done is compression, vinyl especially doesn't support live music dynamic range
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