Sure, but did you ever hear them live? I did, and they were boring AF. In fact I would describe them as "aggressively boring", they went out of their way to not engage with the audience or each other.
Well, if you were a sailor I'd say you were hiking, but as you are one of the most knowledgeable and helpful posters on the forum I have first to ask how you define proper. Are both copper and silver conductors and both copper and silver terminating connectors and both polypropylene and teflon insulation able to fit into the confines of a properly designed cable?
Id like to attempt an answer the OPs original question without raising grief levels all around:
Dynamic range is something dominated heavily by the recording and mastering process.
Given a competently built stage and setup, dynamic range should be “best possible / as intended, as limited by the creation of the end product.”
The dynamic range abilities of vinyl is fixed. Digital in theory is much improved in dynamic range. In practice it isn’t so cut and dry because of mastering and recording methods, techniques and styles. Many find better sense of dynamic range on particular vinyl recordings, as opposed to cd, because of the mastering/remastering methods. Also, it can go the other way.
You can use various tricks to increase a sensation of dynamic range however it will then be applied to all recordings played back through the Phono stage and this to me is not ideal. I’d rather have a more neutral Phono stage and adjust somewhere else.
For someone looking to increase a sense of dynamics on dynamically limited recordings I would use an expander in the playback chain which can be adjusted or defeated depending on the recording.
So, my answer to the question:
“How do you get good dynamics in a Phono stage?”
Would be first to qualify that I’m going to instead use “increased sense of” instead of “good” as it’s a problematic word in this context.
Secondly I’d say that my suggestion is that you shouldn’t attempt to, alter or improve dynamics at the Phono stage level of the system. I’d recommend using the most neutral Phono pre possible and use a dynamic expander hooked into in a processor loop.
If you’d like a suggestion for a neutral Phono pre I’d suggest the Salas Folded Simplistic (boards available from Teabag on the forum). It can be adapted for almost any cartridge.
As far as a suggestion for a dynamic expander, I’d suggest the BBE Sonic Maximizer- it’s simple, inexpensive and won’t require overhaul like the vintage stuff.
Amazon.com: BBE 282iR Desktop Sonic Maximizer with Unbalanced RCA and 3.5mm Connections: Musical Instruments
Dynamics is multifaceted and there is no one size fits all solution for “good” or “better”. Looking at the control options of the various top level expanders should make this clear. So, in a Phono stage with a fixed circuit there’s really not much use in attempting to improve dynamics there... you may find improvements with some recordings but then causing problems with others.
Some expanders have been already suggested.... dbx, pioneer, phase linear, etc. all had models back in the day.
Ebay would be the place to find one of those.
I believe Behringer has some units in current production as well.
I hope that helps in your quest.
And, I’m sorry and apologize for those who seem to be unable to have a different point of view and be simultaneously respectful and helpful.
Emotional intelligence doesn’t always (rarely?) scale proportionally with nuts and bolts knowledge.
Dynamic range is something dominated heavily by the recording and mastering process.
Given a competently built stage and setup, dynamic range should be “best possible / as intended, as limited by the creation of the end product.”
The dynamic range abilities of vinyl is fixed. Digital in theory is much improved in dynamic range. In practice it isn’t so cut and dry because of mastering and recording methods, techniques and styles. Many find better sense of dynamic range on particular vinyl recordings, as opposed to cd, because of the mastering/remastering methods. Also, it can go the other way.
You can use various tricks to increase a sensation of dynamic range however it will then be applied to all recordings played back through the Phono stage and this to me is not ideal. I’d rather have a more neutral Phono stage and adjust somewhere else.
For someone looking to increase a sense of dynamics on dynamically limited recordings I would use an expander in the playback chain which can be adjusted or defeated depending on the recording.
So, my answer to the question:
“How do you get good dynamics in a Phono stage?”
Would be first to qualify that I’m going to instead use “increased sense of” instead of “good” as it’s a problematic word in this context.
Secondly I’d say that my suggestion is that you shouldn’t attempt to, alter or improve dynamics at the Phono stage level of the system. I’d recommend using the most neutral Phono pre possible and use a dynamic expander hooked into in a processor loop.
If you’d like a suggestion for a neutral Phono pre I’d suggest the Salas Folded Simplistic (boards available from Teabag on the forum). It can be adapted for almost any cartridge.
As far as a suggestion for a dynamic expander, I’d suggest the BBE Sonic Maximizer- it’s simple, inexpensive and won’t require overhaul like the vintage stuff.
Amazon.com: BBE 282iR Desktop Sonic Maximizer with Unbalanced RCA and 3.5mm Connections: Musical Instruments
Dynamics is multifaceted and there is no one size fits all solution for “good” or “better”. Looking at the control options of the various top level expanders should make this clear. So, in a Phono stage with a fixed circuit there’s really not much use in attempting to improve dynamics there... you may find improvements with some recordings but then causing problems with others.
Some expanders have been already suggested.... dbx, pioneer, phase linear, etc. all had models back in the day.
Ebay would be the place to find one of those.
I believe Behringer has some units in current production as well.
I hope that helps in your quest.
And, I’m sorry and apologize for those who seem to be unable to have a different point of view and be simultaneously respectful and helpful.
Emotional intelligence doesn’t always (rarely?) scale proportionally with nuts and bolts knowledge.
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You might want to avoid the combination of Teflon dielectric and silver conductor, that combination is prone to triboelectric issues. I have never had problems with silver-plated wire with Teflon insulation, but other reliable reporters have.
That is all well and good, but the OP wrote "Some I like their sound but they do not have good dynamics and vice versa." What are we to make of that? He says some of his phone stages sound good but don't have "good dynamics", what does that mean? How can it sound good if the dynamics are wrong? Then he says "vice versa" which I take to mean that some of his phono stages have good dynamics but sound bad. What are we to make of that without a lot more information? It sounds like whatever he means by "good dynamics" is something he doesn't like, and the absence of "good dynamics" makes things sound better to him. He doesn't say whether he has heard a phono stage that he thinks sounds good and has good dynamics.
I think he may be listening more to his choice of reference recording than the stage itself?
Was the op listening to the same recording at the same levels seated in the same place? Did the rest of the system remain the same?
Perhaps some stages bump the sense dynamics artificially in certain areas?
My theory is that the gain of the stage most likely played a role. I think higher gain stages can give a sense of increased dynamic range, or rather some stages may be gain deficient with respect to the rest of the system. For example the linestage is a buffer without enough drive.
I think the configuration of an ideal system gain is one of the most misunderstood concepts in hobbyist home audio.
I think also dynamic range may just be a semantics/ language problem and really the issue is how it handles transients.
Knowing the actual Phono stages in question and a complete understanding of the OP’s system would be very helpful in understanding the exact reasons.
I think the OP may have made a mistake many of us have made (and which I have routinely made myself) of mischaracterizing the source of and/or reason for the change.
However, I didn’t want to come across as critical.
Also I wanted to do my best to answer the original question despite what my personal hypothesis is as I am not there with him, so how can I truly know?
Then he is not talking about dynamic range- he is talking about something else and calling it dynamic range for lack of a better word.
This is probably the crux of the misunderstanding.
Knowing / clarifying what he is actually describing would be the next necessary step.
Guessing as to what he means won’t yield solutions.
Recording sample files with the different Phono stages would be extremely helpful as well as a complete picture of his playback chain.
Without that we are all “******* in the wind” so to speak.
He does need other power- (and line-) amps first;-! The mentioned are pure "dynamic-preveter"-))) Other speakers and so on too ... I am sure;-)
Then he would not ask for "dynamic" phono-stages.-)
Then he would not ask for "dynamic" phono-stages.-)
all good amps that spec very similar sound very similar.
RIAA stages do not because the RIAA curve is not flat and .5 db mismatch difference changes the timber of the entire audio bandwidth.
MM cartridges are also very sensitive to input Z and capacitance changes.
RIAA stages do not because the RIAA curve is not flat and .5 db mismatch difference changes the timber of the entire audio bandwidth.
MM cartridges are also very sensitive to input Z and capacitance changes.
Dynamics, transients, etc, whatever you want to call them are easily measurable and easily achieved. What isn't easily measured is my mood, my receptiveness, my complicity in the illusion, and what sometimes isn't easily achieved is my satisfying engagement with the music. This can make me feel frustrated because I've sat down turned the stereo on looking forward to an enjoyable listening session and it doesn't happen, it can't possibly be my fault, it must be the equipment, and yet yesterday listening to exactly the same piece at exactly the same volume sitting exactly the same position I reached Nirvana. Obviously for whatever reason my perception on this occasion is flawed, far more than the equipment, which by comparison, has a very simple task to do well within it's abilities
My theory is that your stated “ignorance of theoretical foundations” has resulted in a non-ideal configuration for some of your Phono preamps and/or an issue with your evaluation technique.
Could you please describe in detail the Phono preamps you have used, as well as your complete setup, the recording you used to evaluate, etc
I take it a lot misunderstanding may be a translation / language issue.
In order to help you we will need much further clarification of what you mean when you say dynamics, but mostly what we need is some tangible data as your description is not sufficient to give you an answer with a high degree of trust.
If you list the preamps, your complete system, record some sample files from your turntable and upload them here we can assist you rapidly and give you a definitive answer.
Otherwise we are severely limited in our ability to evaluate your claims and give you plausible answers.
So, asking a question in this way without much clear information will be a recipe in the future as well for a descent into confusion, debate and argument over semantics.
You will see this result over and over again.
You can avoid this by taking initiative to provide this data to the many skilled folks who are here providing their time for free to help assist you in your query.
Best,
John
I agree with this.
But we are still guessing what truly he means or is hearing.
Dynamic range and transient/ overload behavior are not the same.
I will look into the Aktidamp MkIII. I’ve never heard of it before... not that I need another Phono preamp....
Copper is good enough; silver is no better. Almost any plastic will do as insulator. The usual problem with bad cables is the construction/geometry e.g. omitting the shield from an unbalanced connection (thus inviting in RF), using braiding when twisting would be better and coax would be better still. If you can hear the difference between two short interconnects then at least one of them is faulty, and possibly the equipment too. However, let's not turn this into yet another cable thread.Hearinspace said:
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