I just don't see how posting list after list of different drivers is getting Punkr any further along on his quest.
At least Panomaniac is willing to help get the thing designed.
At least he and Joe have actually heard the drivers they are
advocating. If I were Punkr I'd stick with them until an actual design that might be better comes along. An actual design that someone has heard...
Recommending an unknown driver based on its frequency response curve seems a marginal help at best.
A lot more helpful would be if you know of any design that has been built that you feel fits his requirements . Especially if it can easily be converted to using an 18" bassdriver!!
At least Panomaniac is willing to help get the thing designed.
At least he and Joe have actually heard the drivers they are
advocating. If I were Punkr I'd stick with them until an actual design that might be better comes along. An actual design that someone has heard...
Recommending an unknown driver based on its frequency response curve seems a marginal help at best.
A lot more helpful would be if you know of any design that has been built that you feel fits his requirements . Especially if it can easily be converted to using an 18" bassdriver!!
Well...
I have all along thought that building "the blue..." with the Dayton 18" instead would give a better, deeper bass....with its bigger volume
And adding another 8" would help in integration with woofer....and give a lot more powerfull low mid....better powerhandlig.....lower distortion....?
And it looks like Selenium makes the better drivers...so the Selenium 1" tweeter...with a better horn
Punk could later ad a sub....but I dont think he would ever need it
And most important...it would not be a "Blue.."...but his own, bigger and better version
Hell, with small mods the "Blue..." crossover could be used, ...possibly
And thats where we were, until Punk got his craziness with double 18"
And we could all rest, knowing that Punk has got a very nice speaker with the sound he likes
So back to....basics...?
BTW...guys, we had the idea about "The blue..." first, we just didnt get a chance to finish it....so why not just do that...and hopefully making it better, bigger and meaner
I have all along thought that building "the blue..." with the Dayton 18" instead would give a better, deeper bass....with its bigger volume
And adding another 8" would help in integration with woofer....and give a lot more powerfull low mid....better powerhandlig.....lower distortion....?
And it looks like Selenium makes the better drivers...so the Selenium 1" tweeter...with a better horn
Punk could later ad a sub....but I dont think he would ever need it
And most important...it would not be a "Blue.."...but his own, bigger and better version
Hell, with small mods the "Blue..." crossover could be used, ...possibly
And thats where we were, until Punk got his craziness with double 18"
And we could all rest, knowing that Punk has got a very nice speaker with the sound he likes
So back to....basics...?
BTW...guys, we had the idea about "The blue..." first, we just didnt get a chance to finish it....so why not just do that...and hopefully making it better, bigger and meaner
That's the best suggestion I've heard yet.
My experience with larger pro woofers is that the differences are not so great that the box design will vary that much. Of course we should model it in the PE box, but I'll bet its fine.
The smaller blue box will raise the response curve to closer to where Punkr will want it I think.
I think the point to keep in mind is that some here really do know enough to design a good speaker system, the trouble is that when you know that much, you also know how unlikely it is to come up with a good design by working only on paper.
I do have another possibility: Adire Audio had a PA design that I believe used an 18" woofer, and a 10" Eminence coaxial with the Eminence tweeter. Would be neat if someone could find it...
My experience with larger pro woofers is that the differences are not so great that the box design will vary that much. Of course we should model it in the PE box, but I'll bet its fine.
The smaller blue box will raise the response curve to closer to where Punkr will want it I think.
I think the point to keep in mind is that some here really do know enough to design a good speaker system, the trouble is that when you know that much, you also know how unlikely it is to come up with a good design by working only on paper.
I do have another possibility: Adire Audio had a PA design that I believe used an 18" woofer, and a 10" Eminence coaxial with the Eminence tweeter. Would be neat if someone could find it...
I remember that.. it was called the Hurricane. I believe it used the 18" Tempest driver with the HE10.1 kit as a top.
The HE10.1 kit was an Adire kit that used the Eminence coaxial woofer with an Adire tweeter. The Tempest was an 18" woofer that, if I recall correctly, had a sensitivity around 92-94 db. I couldn't find any details out there.
I think the Eminence Beta 12 CX (coaxial) would be an awesome start for one of these speakers- but the problem is that Punk wants to see a lot of cones. I assume that seeing the tweeter is a priority too.
Here's an archive link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040630220958/http://www.adireaudio.com/StockProducts/kits.htm
So... I think we're just going to spin our wheels until Punk comes back and lets us know what he things, if he still wants two 18s, a 12, and a waveguide- or what.
The HE10.1 kit was an Adire kit that used the Eminence coaxial woofer with an Adire tweeter. The Tempest was an 18" woofer that, if I recall correctly, had a sensitivity around 92-94 db. I couldn't find any details out there.
I think the Eminence Beta 12 CX (coaxial) would be an awesome start for one of these speakers- but the problem is that Punk wants to see a lot of cones. I assume that seeing the tweeter is a priority too.
Here's an archive link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040630220958/http://www.adireaudio.com/StockProducts/kits.htm
So... I think we're just going to spin our wheels until Punk comes back and lets us know what he things, if he still wants two 18s, a 12, and a waveguide- or what.
Good job Joe! I followed your clues and here it is:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040525181155/www.adireaudio.com/Files/HurricaneBassCab.pdf
Adire may not sell most of this still, but the 10" coaxial and tweeter are Eminence - Adire claims it is modified, but I wonder....
http://web.archive.org/web/20040525181155/www.adireaudio.com/Files/HurricaneBassCab.pdf
Adire may not sell most of this still, but the 10" coaxial and tweeter are Eminence - Adire claims it is modified, but I wonder....
All I can say is you guys posted the link and I followed and I like. .
I don't know how much these cost but I know it's probably a year out of my budget. If I ever get rich I know where I'm going for my next project
OK, well back on track, it was said that the 12" mid has it's faults and that something smaller would do better, OK, I had to let it sink in so what would you suggest exactly?
I however am still having trouble parting with the 12" mid. So like someone else posted would I be able to horn loaded the mid and get good results? Of course then I wouldn't really be able to see the full 12 inches.
OK so I'm considering dual 8" mids, would these be a good selection? I've heard a lot about Eminence around here so I figured that's where I'd start. The Alpha seems to be a similar driver but after I studied the charts on the manufacturer's spec sheet and the Beta seems to have a rough response although it does seem to be overall the louder of the two and the Beta seems to have a more extended frequency, both start to roll off around 150 cycles and 5k cycles although the Beta is visibly louder.
Or maybe even the 10 inch I mentioned earlier. I also like this Eminence , but It seems to peak alot aronud 5k cycles. These are just are few leads of mine there are others out there. Like the more expensive B&C models or Pioneer drivers.
Judging by that I'd say the Beta would be the more appropriate driver for my project but I think the Alpha would sound a bit better. Of course this is all on paper so I can't really judge the driver.
If I'm reading this chart's wrong forgive I'm trying to learn here so I don't have to completely rely on you guys for all the technical issues.
Well, I had something else to say but it skipped my mind,lol, well I'll get back to you when I remember.
Remembered what I was going to say!
A few pages back line arrays were mentioned ( oh no!) lol don't worry I'm not gonna bother with that until this is done, but I think it would be an interesting project with those 6.5 high excursion drivers.
I don't know how much these cost but I know it's probably a year out of my budget. If I ever get rich I know where I'm going for my next project
OK, well back on track, it was said that the 12" mid has it's faults and that something smaller would do better, OK, I had to let it sink in so what would you suggest exactly?
I however am still having trouble parting with the 12" mid. So like someone else posted would I be able to horn loaded the mid and get good results? Of course then I wouldn't really be able to see the full 12 inches.
OK so I'm considering dual 8" mids, would these be a good selection? I've heard a lot about Eminence around here so I figured that's where I'd start. The Alpha seems to be a similar driver but after I studied the charts on the manufacturer's spec sheet and the Beta seems to have a rough response although it does seem to be overall the louder of the two and the Beta seems to have a more extended frequency, both start to roll off around 150 cycles and 5k cycles although the Beta is visibly louder.
Or maybe even the 10 inch I mentioned earlier. I also like this Eminence , but It seems to peak alot aronud 5k cycles. These are just are few leads of mine there are others out there. Like the more expensive B&C models or Pioneer drivers.
Judging by that I'd say the Beta would be the more appropriate driver for my project but I think the Alpha would sound a bit better. Of course this is all on paper so I can't really judge the driver.
If I'm reading this chart's wrong forgive I'm trying to learn here so I don't have to completely rely on you guys for all the technical issues.
Well, I had something else to say but it skipped my mind,lol, well I'll get back to you when I remember.
Remembered what I was going to say!
A few pages back line arrays were mentioned ( oh no!) lol don't worry I'm not gonna bother with that until this is done, but I think it would be an interesting project with those 6.5 high excursion drivers.
There is a Selenium D250 that can be crossed much lower....would look nice with a big horn....but it will need a supertweeter
I am pretty sure double Beta 8 is better than those coax....if it is crossed even lower....might be very good
edit....or with the 12"...if you like
Problem I think, is that double Beta 8 will costwise be very close to this VERY nice 12"....which could be almost perfect crossed at 1-1.5khz
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=290-510
Are we "drifting" again...or...?
I am pretty sure double Beta 8 is better than those coax....if it is crossed even lower....might be very good
edit....or with the 12"...if you like
Problem I think, is that double Beta 8 will costwise be very close to this VERY nice 12"....which could be almost perfect crossed at 1-1.5khz
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=290-510
Are we "drifting" again...or...?
The Eminence Beta 8 is exactly the same as the Hammer 8 IMHO
as I've been mentioning here over and over. Please someone check the parameters- I could be full of it, but thats what I remember. It also looks identical. Clearly Hammer had Eminence make this for them. Not unusual, Eminence makes drivers for LOTS of companies, including probably that Dayton 18" you selected. They aren't ALL identical to Eminence drivers though- Eminence makes drivers to the specs that the other company requests.
Again, you can't tell all about how a driver sounds by looking at one response graph!!!!!! The Beta 8/ Hammer 8 is known to sound pretty good.
as I've been mentioning here over and over. Please someone check the parameters- I could be full of it, but thats what I remember. It also looks identical. Clearly Hammer had Eminence make this for them. Not unusual, Eminence makes drivers for LOTS of companies, including probably that Dayton 18" you selected. They aren't ALL identical to Eminence drivers though- Eminence makes drivers to the specs that the other company requests.
Again, you can't tell all about how a driver sounds by looking at one response graph!!!!!! The Beta 8/ Hammer 8 is known to sound pretty good.
Just setting things into perspective....and we mostly agree....now we have been told Beta 8 are all right
Although we cannot know anything about why the Hammers are at half price....I could think of a number of reasons...of which some would matter....and others wouldnt....and yes, they are probaply ok !
edit, about response graphs....yes, agreed, we cannot know for sure....but they dont show faults that they dont have....if you get my point.....but give me a better option... all I know is that the higher you go in frequency, the smaller the driver needs to be, generally, and so it is...actually 8" is a rather big midrange !
Although we cannot know anything about why the Hammers are at half price....I could think of a number of reasons...of which some would matter....and others wouldnt....and yes, they are probaply ok !
edit, about response graphs....yes, agreed, we cannot know for sure....but they dont show faults that they dont have....if you get my point.....but give me a better option... all I know is that the higher you go in frequency, the smaller the driver needs to be, generally, and so it is...actually 8" is a rather big midrange !
I put "Eighteen Sound" into Google and here is what I got:
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/html/18sound_10-12.html
I know, I know, I'm a genius to have thought of that!!!! Who would've thought...
Pricey as expected, but probably great, many of their products are- then again I don't know about this one, I mean then you have to consider PHL also which have a superb reputation, and there we go....
tinnitus:
How do you know the Delta 12 is "Very Nice" ?
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/html/18sound_10-12.html
I know, I know, I'm a genius to have thought of that!!!! Who would've thought...
Pricey as expected, but probably great, many of their products are- then again I don't know about this one, I mean then you have to consider PHL also which have a superb reputation, and there we go....
tinnitus:
How do you know the Delta 12 is "Very Nice" ?
Good link to 18-Sound...have been looking for a pricerange...they are actually not THAT expencive
If DeltaPro-12A is as good as it looks...probaply not !
edit, one thing is sure....I would never buy a driver, without any measurements...reliable or not !
If DeltaPro-12A is as good as it looks...probaply not !
edit, one thing is sure....I would never buy a driver, without any measurements...reliable or not !
About the DELTA PRO 12A..
One thing is certain...it will have a nice punchy midbass, with that truncky looking magnet....and everything else SEEMS to be under control
Thats the problem with BETA 12A...it lacks in lowend due to small magnet and light cone...which gives the uneven rise in FR
It actually seems to get quite low with the right box....but propably with less control
And there are similarities with cheap coax drivers
You know, sometimes manufactorers are simply plain lucky...if they really were in absolute control....well, there wouldnt be anything but good drivers
The ALPHA 6A might be one of those lucky things....along with BETA 8, ... the DELTA....hell, I cannot know for sure, can I....but I am not here to make arguments for my own sake....so, just take a pick....one might be as good as the other....used the right way !
edit, allthough the small peak at the end might very well be a bit worse than shown....but my suggestion was to cross just above 1khz...to the 1" 250ti...and have a supertweeter too....but I guess thats a whole different thing, and if you dont like it, well...!
One thing is certain...it will have a nice punchy midbass, with that truncky looking magnet....and everything else SEEMS to be under control
Thats the problem with BETA 12A...it lacks in lowend due to small magnet and light cone...which gives the uneven rise in FR
It actually seems to get quite low with the right box....but propably with less control
And there are similarities with cheap coax drivers
You know, sometimes manufactorers are simply plain lucky...if they really were in absolute control....well, there wouldnt be anything but good drivers
The ALPHA 6A might be one of those lucky things....along with BETA 8, ... the DELTA....hell, I cannot know for sure, can I....but I am not here to make arguments for my own sake....so, just take a pick....one might be as good as the other....used the right way !
edit, allthough the small peak at the end might very well be a bit worse than shown....but my suggestion was to cross just above 1khz...to the 1" 250ti...and have a supertweeter too....but I guess thats a whole different thing, and if you dont like it, well...!
punkrokr1701 said:
Horn loading reduces excursion at the low end, above the horn loading frequency. For the tweeters we are talking about, this means that the horn allows the tweeter to hold still and not go into huge excusions down to about 2khz. Below that, the tweeter is out of luck. Similarly, horn loading a midwoofer would reduce excursion, allowing higher output from a given driver. The horn also controls the directivity of the driver. I don't know, but I assume that this is how horn loading would allow a 12" to be useable higher.
Yeah, like I said- I liked the Beta 8. I concede that it's kind of pricey, so maybe the Hammer 8 would do the trick. Even if it's just pretty close to the Beta 8, I don't think it will suck.
That driver has 1.25 mm of Xmax. That won't cross over very low.
There's more to this than just frequency response graphs. My biggest worry is that driver integration will be a problem. How far away from these speakers do you think you'll be, 90% of the time you're listening to them?
Well, well, well. Seems like we might be making progress at last!
Even Tinitus has come over to the Dark Side and embraced pro drivers.
OK, I am officially withdrawing my support for the 12" mid. The 12 has a lot of good qualities - if it can be crossed over to the horn low enough to avoid beaming and cone breakup issues.
So let me put in a vote for a 10" mid. WIth the 10" we should have no problem crossing over to a 1" horn. I've heard plenty of 10"/1" combos that work well together. (15"/1" - no). And the 10" will still give Punkrokr the cone area he wants as well as plenty of weight and strength for his low mids.
Unfortunately I don't have a "known good 10" to suggest. The Delta 10 seems to end up in a lot of PA boxes, we should look at it. I would think that any pro 10" from the Eminence, Selenium, B&C or 18Sound is NOT going to be a dog. Is there one best adapted to our needs? Yeah maybe. We need some advice on what that might be.
We seem to be happy with the Selenium D210 as our horn driver. There has been question of the Dayton 7" waveguide. I don't know it. I use my D210s on the smaller Selenium HM17-25 bi-radial horn. Sounds good, but it would be nice to have a larger horn so that we can cross a little lower.
Variac. You have the D210s on a big horn, right? What have you got and where do you cross over?
Even Tinitus has come over to the Dark Side and embraced pro drivers.
OK, I am officially withdrawing my support for the 12" mid. The 12 has a lot of good qualities - if it can be crossed over to the horn low enough to avoid beaming and cone breakup issues.
So let me put in a vote for a 10" mid. WIth the 10" we should have no problem crossing over to a 1" horn. I've heard plenty of 10"/1" combos that work well together. (15"/1" - no). And the 10" will still give Punkrokr the cone area he wants as well as plenty of weight and strength for his low mids.
Unfortunately I don't have a "known good 10" to suggest. The Delta 10 seems to end up in a lot of PA boxes, we should look at it. I would think that any pro 10" from the Eminence, Selenium, B&C or 18Sound is NOT going to be a dog. Is there one best adapted to our needs? Yeah maybe. We need some advice on what that might be.
We seem to be happy with the Selenium D210 as our horn driver. There has been question of the Dayton 7" waveguide. I don't know it. I use my D210s on the smaller Selenium HM17-25 bi-radial horn. Sounds good, but it would be nice to have a larger horn so that we can cross a little lower.
Variac. You have the D210s on a big horn, right? What have you got and where do you cross over?
Delta 10"...it could work nicely ...with a big inductor to take the rise from 1khz....would give an estimated cross point about 2khz
It actually looks like a very straight and high rise, well for sure not as smooth as shown, and such a responce curve looks more like its drawn by hand.... anyway there seems to be no serious dips and peaks along the way....a bit at the end, but I think it will be fine with the right care
Advantage over double 8".....higher impedance, better load for amp.....but higher impedance ofcourse means bigger inductor...generally
But anyway, a single driver mostly sound better than two !
Should it be loaded with a fronthorn ?...I am not really sure about that....with a smaller driver I think it would be nice, but with this 10" it might make more trouble than good
But a flat fronthorn would do one good thing...better phase alignment with woofer....but would be worse on tweeter...?
I strongly suggest that we should consider a "stepped" baffle... very important to get the best result !
You have mentioned to use a smaller volume for 18"....I really dont get it and dont think its such a great idea....this particular driver is made for big volumes and very low frequencies, in PA terms that is....the more expencive PA sub drivers that Punk seem to fancy wont go any lower...but with a bit more Xmax they just do the same at the most exstreme levels
It actually looks like a very straight and high rise, well for sure not as smooth as shown, and such a responce curve looks more like its drawn by hand.... anyway there seems to be no serious dips and peaks along the way....a bit at the end, but I think it will be fine with the right care
Advantage over double 8".....higher impedance, better load for amp.....but higher impedance ofcourse means bigger inductor...generally
But anyway, a single driver mostly sound better than two !
Should it be loaded with a fronthorn ?...I am not really sure about that....with a smaller driver I think it would be nice, but with this 10" it might make more trouble than good
But a flat fronthorn would do one good thing...better phase alignment with woofer....but would be worse on tweeter...?
I strongly suggest that we should consider a "stepped" baffle... very important to get the best result !
You have mentioned to use a smaller volume for 18"....I really dont get it and dont think its such a great idea....this particular driver is made for big volumes and very low frequencies, in PA terms that is....the more expencive PA sub drivers that Punk seem to fancy wont go any lower...but with a bit more Xmax they just do the same at the most exstreme levels
BTW....I wouldnt recommend DELTA 10" with active crossing....?
I would still favour DELTA PRO-12A.... when we are talking PA mids....its optimized at mids...because of "smaller" voicecoil and moderately higher Fs ...in relation to its brother woofers
I think this might turn out to be a real mean monster rocker killer
I would still favour DELTA PRO-12A.... when we are talking PA mids....its optimized at mids...because of "smaller" voicecoil and moderately higher Fs ...in relation to its brother woofers
I think this might turn out to be a real mean monster rocker killer
BTW...I think for home use, Emminence PRO drivers are as good as any of the more expencive ones .....
I cant say excactly why.... but I dont fancy those 10" PA mid drivers ... maybe too specialized ...
Actually its often the same with hifi 10" drivers... they rarely have even a decent midrange ... so I guess I simply dont like 10" drivers very much.... you might say they have the worst of both worlds.... 😕
I cant say excactly why.... but I dont fancy those 10" PA mid drivers ... maybe too specialized ...
Actually its often the same with hifi 10" drivers... they rarely have even a decent midrange ... so I guess I simply dont like 10" drivers very much.... you might say they have the worst of both worlds.... 😕
Quote from DELTA PRO-12A data sheet....
".....ideal for full-range, mid/hi, and monitor wedges".
And I thought one reason for loosing one 18", would be to use a better quality mid....and not just a different one ?
".....ideal for full-range, mid/hi, and monitor wedges".
And I thought one reason for loosing one 18", would be to use a better quality mid....and not just a different one ?
Hi,
if Tannoy can design their 15inch to cross to a 2inch horn loaded tweeter then why can't anyone else manage a 12inch to 1.75inch horn loaded tweeter with a bit of expertise.
Note, I said 1.75inch.
The Selenium is not a 1inch tweeter it is a 1inch throat from a much larger driver.
If both the 12inch and the 1.75inch are well designed to have wide band capability then they should be capable of integrating well.
BTW. I would have gone twin 8inch in D'apollito format to the Selenium located in between them, but it would have cost considerably more.
if Tannoy can design their 15inch to cross to a 2inch horn loaded tweeter then why can't anyone else manage a 12inch to 1.75inch horn loaded tweeter with a bit of expertise.
Note, I said 1.75inch.
The Selenium is not a 1inch tweeter it is a 1inch throat from a much larger driver.
If both the 12inch and the 1.75inch are well designed to have wide band capability then they should be capable of integrating well.
BTW. I would have gone twin 8inch in D'apollito format to the Selenium located in between them, but it would have cost considerably more.
Well, thanks Andrew...in fact I have recommended a D250 that can cross much lower....problem, it needs a supertweeter
Anyway, it could be done with our D210....and some day Punk may run it all active 24db, which means he could cross a bit lower...and he might even invest in a 2" driver later
Another advantage for the PRO 12"....although a dedicated mid, it does go all the way down to 100hz, without much loss
Should Punk at any time choose to run the 18" as sub and cross around 100hz...it will do that too and this 18" will go almost straight to 30hz, if tuned correctly ....which is impressive at this level of sensitivity
What do you call it....versatile...?
I rest my case...sore head
Anyway, it could be done with our D210....and some day Punk may run it all active 24db, which means he could cross a bit lower...and he might even invest in a 2" driver later
Another advantage for the PRO 12"....although a dedicated mid, it does go all the way down to 100hz, without much loss
Should Punk at any time choose to run the 18" as sub and cross around 100hz...it will do that too and this 18" will go almost straight to 30hz, if tuned correctly ....which is impressive at this level of sensitivity
What do you call it....versatile...?
I rest my case...sore head
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