Jeez, read HOW many times people here have tried to talk him out of two 18" drivers and I'd say you are wrong.
However sreten I would say you are in a position to propose something that will satisfy him- perhaps you ca nshow us how to unignore his wishes?
Only by showing by showing Punk something that will convince him....arguments wont help much....anyway 😱
But Punk himself presenting the MONTANA told me a lot 😉
But Punk himself presenting the MONTANA told me a lot 😉
OK sreten - if you have some better ideas or specific criticisms of the 1812, please share. We would like to know.
Way back near the beginning of all this you suggested the Magna Cum Laude project from P.E. I still think it is the best project for him, add a sub if he wants. But he was very resistant to the idea, remember? Maybe you can try to talk him into it again. 🙂
Then about the time we had come up with a 18/8/horn project the Blue Wonder showed up on P.E. Perfect!
But he wouldn't go for that, either. Why? I don't know. Just didn't light his fire, I guess.
So now we have established a good choice of drivers and a basic layout. The layout Mr. Punk seems to like is the layout of the Montana, or the Magentar big OB project that I suggested way back when.
Please tell us what is wrong with this WMTW layout? Honestly, what are your objections?
If you look back a few posts you will see that Punkrokr wants to put one 18, the mid and horn in a single box, with the other 18 in a separate box. Now what does that sound like?? Yep - the Blue Wonder with a 12" mid. That's all. And it has a 2nd (probably unnecessary) 18. Just how bad is that going to sound?
To boot, he will have an active crossover for his bass, so that he can easily turn it up or down to suite his tastes. What's wrong with that?
I spent a lot of years working with big PA gear. Most of my audio engineer buddies had PA gear at home. I sure didn't like the sound of it, but they loved it. And it did sound bigger, badder and more live than 99% of what I've heard in a home speaker. Ultimate SQ? Only if big loud and dynamic are your only criteria.
So anyone: If there are any real, constructive, detailed criticisms of the 18/12, please step up and let us know. That's what we are here for. But the "Oh that will sound awful" posts don't really help - do they?
Can’t you tell us why you think so and give us details of what might be done better?
Way back near the beginning of all this you suggested the Magna Cum Laude project from P.E. I still think it is the best project for him, add a sub if he wants. But he was very resistant to the idea, remember? Maybe you can try to talk him into it again. 🙂
Then about the time we had come up with a 18/8/horn project the Blue Wonder showed up on P.E. Perfect!
But he wouldn't go for that, either. Why? I don't know. Just didn't light his fire, I guess.
So now we have established a good choice of drivers and a basic layout. The layout Mr. Punk seems to like is the layout of the Montana, or the Magentar big OB project that I suggested way back when.
Please tell us what is wrong with this WMTW layout? Honestly, what are your objections?
If you look back a few posts you will see that Punkrokr wants to put one 18, the mid and horn in a single box, with the other 18 in a separate box. Now what does that sound like?? Yep - the Blue Wonder with a 12" mid. That's all. And it has a 2nd (probably unnecessary) 18. Just how bad is that going to sound?
To boot, he will have an active crossover for his bass, so that he can easily turn it up or down to suite his tastes. What's wrong with that?
I spent a lot of years working with big PA gear. Most of my audio engineer buddies had PA gear at home. I sure didn't like the sound of it, but they loved it. And it did sound bigger, badder and more live than 99% of what I've heard in a home speaker. Ultimate SQ? Only if big loud and dynamic are your only criteria.
So anyone: If there are any real, constructive, detailed criticisms of the 18/12, please step up and let us know. That's what we are here for. But the "Oh that will sound awful" posts don't really help - do they?
Can’t you tell us why you think so and give us details of what might be done better?
As none of us knows the sound of each paticular driver, I know of only one way.....to follow the standard rules about which size driver to cower certain frequencies.....and pick them carefully....and the result often becomes a 4-way
There are tricky ways to make even a 2-way with big woofers, and two 15" with 2" compression driver have been presented, with little approval from Punk...so that doesnt turn him on....no doubt he want a lot of drivers
But I agree with Variac....without any real "meat on the bones", there is no need to continue this debate
I have presented mine....inspirations...one a pure PA high efficient speaker....dont think there will be any more.....out of steam !
I dont care which way he chooses....I only care about giving him some choices....thats all !
Thank you! 🙂
There are tricky ways to make even a 2-way with big woofers, and two 15" with 2" compression driver have been presented, with little approval from Punk...so that doesnt turn him on....no doubt he want a lot of drivers
But I agree with Variac....without any real "meat on the bones", there is no need to continue this debate
I have presented mine....inspirations...one a pure PA high efficient speaker....dont think there will be any more.....out of steam !
I dont care which way he chooses....I only care about giving him some choices....thats all !
Thank you! 🙂
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I feel that punkrockr will have fun with the speaker he has decided on. AND he will learn a lot- ESPECIALLY if he gets an active crossover box and plays around with it.
So I think that link Panomaniac listed says it all.
So I think that link Panomaniac listed says it all.
Having followed the thread, and knowing what punk is after, I will not suggest the A7, but here are some things to consider:
I think you will want only one woofer hooked up most of the time. These things don't sound good at lower volumes. They need to move a little before you appreciate them so having two might be a detriment at lower levels. Hook up the second when you need to turn it up. (remember to adjust your XO to compensate for the change in impedance)
The 12" is awfully big. I think the sweet spot will be rather small due to beaming. If it were my project, I would consider no larger than 10" unless you plan to run it through a horn as well. If you do that, you will reduce your beaming considerably and incrrease the SPL. With an active XO, power handling won't be an issue.
I'm not sure about the waveguide for the tweeter. Compression drivers are meant to come out a more traditional horn. I understand that waveguides are used because they don't have a big influence on the sound and are therefore well suited for other types of tweeters that did not originally come with a horn, like cones and domes. A compression driver kind of relies on that interference and colouring in order to sound right. Have you listened to a compression driver by itself? Did it sound right or does it sound better after you connect it to the horn?
Not trying to pee on anyone's parade and yes I know this is fun but I think the above points should be considered as it is still a rather large chunk of money being laid out here and I think we owe it to punk to give him the best value for the money.
I think you will want only one woofer hooked up most of the time. These things don't sound good at lower volumes. They need to move a little before you appreciate them so having two might be a detriment at lower levels. Hook up the second when you need to turn it up. (remember to adjust your XO to compensate for the change in impedance)
The 12" is awfully big. I think the sweet spot will be rather small due to beaming. If it were my project, I would consider no larger than 10" unless you plan to run it through a horn as well. If you do that, you will reduce your beaming considerably and incrrease the SPL. With an active XO, power handling won't be an issue.
I'm not sure about the waveguide for the tweeter. Compression drivers are meant to come out a more traditional horn. I understand that waveguides are used because they don't have a big influence on the sound and are therefore well suited for other types of tweeters that did not originally come with a horn, like cones and domes. A compression driver kind of relies on that interference and colouring in order to sound right. Have you listened to a compression driver by itself? Did it sound right or does it sound better after you connect it to the horn?
Not trying to pee on anyone's parade and yes I know this is fun but I think the above points should be considered as it is still a rather large chunk of money being laid out here and I think we owe it to punk to give him the best value for the money.
You know, that's a really good point about beaming. I ran a single 8" driver up to 4khz once, and the beaming was definitely noticeable.
If you select something more like a horn than a waveguide, something with good loading down to 2 khz, then cross steep around 2.5 khz, then I think the directionality could work alright. Even with it set up like that, you won't want to listen to these while sitting too close. They'll sound best from farther away.
I would have pushed harder for the two 8" drivers, but he seemed pretty set on a 12".
If you select something more like a horn than a waveguide, something with good loading down to 2 khz, then cross steep around 2.5 khz, then I think the directionality could work alright. Even with it set up like that, you won't want to listen to these while sitting too close. They'll sound best from farther away.
I would have pushed harder for the two 8" drivers, but he seemed pretty set on a 12".
Well, these waveguides are made to screw onto compression drivers, they are theaded for this purpose. They aren't designed for any other kind of tweeter than a compresion driver. I would say you are setting up a straw man to say a wave guide is the same thing as a compression driver with nothing attached to it!!! I think that's just misleading or you really aren't that clear what a waveguide is.
Many people find horn colouring to be a fault rather than a virtue. Yes a horn driver without a horn will usually have a lumpier curve than with one. The idea of the waveguide is exactly to get decent response without the bad colorations that horns can have.
Many people find horn colouring to be a fault rather than a virtue. Yes a horn driver without a horn will usually have a lumpier curve than with one. The idea of the waveguide is exactly to get decent response without the bad colorations that horns can have.
Please go back and count how many times I have suggested that. It would be impossible for me to push harder for 8" drivers. Please check how many times Panomaniac has said he would be fine with it. Although tinitus has now probably recommended over a hundred 😉 designs by now, 8" drivers have figured in many of them.
However I'm not going to critisize the 12" when I have never heard it and a member who has, is recommending it. Those particular 12's DO have a good reputation.
I think the reason we ended up with the 12" mid is because at one point I suggested the Beta12 LTA full range with a super tweeter.
I'll admit that the 12" non-FR driver makes me a bit nervous. A 10 or 8 would be an easier, more certain choice. Punkrokr seems to like the 12, for it's size, if nothing else. I have suggested the dual 8s several times, so far no bites. Maybe we need to insist louder.
If it were my project, I would save the money from the 2nd set of 18s and and find a really good 10" mid. Maybe something from B&C, EV, JBL or 18Sound. That mid is going to define much of the overall sound of the speaker.
Cal is right about the twin 18s. Disconnecting one for normal listening levels may sound much better. With an active crossover it will be easy to do.
I don't know anything about the waveguide. It seems to have been choosen because it worked well in the Blue Wonder project. Other ideas are welcome. Is there a good horn/1" driver combo out there that will work with an 8 or 10" mid? Shouldn't be too hard to find.
I'll admit that the 12" non-FR driver makes me a bit nervous. A 10 or 8 would be an easier, more certain choice. Punkrokr seems to like the 12, for it's size, if nothing else. I have suggested the dual 8s several times, so far no bites. Maybe we need to insist louder.
If it were my project, I would save the money from the 2nd set of 18s and and find a really good 10" mid. Maybe something from B&C, EV, JBL or 18Sound. That mid is going to define much of the overall sound of the speaker.
Cal is right about the twin 18s. Disconnecting one for normal listening levels may sound much better. With an active crossover it will be easy to do.
I don't know anything about the waveguide. It seems to have been choosen because it worked well in the Blue Wonder project. Other ideas are welcome. Is there a good horn/1" driver combo out there that will work with an 8 or 10" mid? Shouldn't be too hard to find.
Let me explain why I am not keen on that Hammer 8"
Constuctor of "Blue..." explains how he had to lower crossover point, as it seemed not to sound very good with higher crossover point...could indicate a serious problem
So I seriously support the suggestion of saving one 18" and use the money on a real quality midrange.....as mentioned, it doesnt have to be PE
I think 18-sound make some nice expencive ones
Just curious...or just my madness...
What would you think of S I X of these 6.5" pr side....
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/poly_6.5_page.html
Cant seem to find any 18-Sound......although interestingly this 8" looks a lot like our Hammer-8....in expencive clothes
What would you think of S I X of these 6.5" pr side....
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/poly_6.5_page.html
Cant seem to find any 18-Sound......although interestingly this 8" looks a lot like our Hammer-8....in expencive clothes
I actually HAVE used the Eminence Beta-8, and I was fairly pleased with it. The Hammer 8's are supposed to be very similar.
It's no surprise that you want a low crossover with it, since you get a better match in directivity at the crossover, less beaming overall, and better coherence due to the wavelengths involved at the crossover and ceneter-to-center spacing.
If anything, I think the Beta 8 had a slight tendency to ring in the high end. That's just paper cone breakup, and nothing as objectionable as metal cone breakup. If it's addressed with a lower steeper crossover, I think they're great drivers.
I'd also advocate going with an even nicer mid, if not for the stated concentration on bass above all else. To my ear, the Beta 8s were quite enjoyable, even with my lousy crossover that I fixed with extensive parametric EQ. The Beta 8 is at least as good as most medium-range PA gear.
(I'd have ranted more about the Hammer 8, but I don't know it... just the Beta)
It's no surprise that you want a low crossover with it, since you get a better match in directivity at the crossover, less beaming overall, and better coherence due to the wavelengths involved at the crossover and ceneter-to-center spacing.
If anything, I think the Beta 8 had a slight tendency to ring in the high end. That's just paper cone breakup, and nothing as objectionable as metal cone breakup. If it's addressed with a lower steeper crossover, I think they're great drivers.
I'd also advocate going with an even nicer mid, if not for the stated concentration on bass above all else. To my ear, the Beta 8s were quite enjoyable, even with my lousy crossover that I fixed with extensive parametric EQ. The Beta 8 is at least as good as most medium-range PA gear.
(I'd have ranted more about the Hammer 8, but I don't know it... just the Beta)
tinitus said:
I haven't seen any links of anyonedoing tests on those drivers. As far as I'm concerned, the company and the drivers are kind of an unknown. I'm extremely interested in those drivers, but I won't recommend them to anyone until I read a first-hand account from one of the big DIYers (the analytical ones who post distortion tests).
If you're talkng about six, why not eight? Make it a line array, you know? But then you're worried about line array tweeters. Please, let's not turn this thread into one about line arrays...
Point taken
Forgot link to 18-Sound 8", which looks a lot like Hammer 8....just out of interest
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=229
Forgot link to 18-Sound 8", which looks a lot like Hammer 8....just out of interest
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=229
Now here might be one.....my guess is its too expencive
They rate it as one of their best 12" with optimal midrange
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=214
Or this 10" might be something
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=225
They rate it as one of their best 12" with optimal midrange
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=214
Or this 10" might be something
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=225
Polar Response
Just for fun, see the graph below.
Polar response should not make much of a difference below our crossover point, but above it things change fast. How much will the horn fill in?
Polar response is not the only difference between 12 -10 - 8 inch drivers, of course. Just for your reference.
Just for fun, see the graph below.
Polar response should not make much of a difference below our crossover point, but above it things change fast. How much will the horn fill in?
Polar response is not the only difference between 12 -10 - 8 inch drivers, of course. Just for your reference.
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