I tend to agree that a bump might not be required. The curve Panomaniac posted a while ago showed bump very low in the response. I don't think that would be necessary, and and combined with room gain may well be too much. Even if the bass is calculated as flat, it will rise at the lower end due to room gain, which should be plenty. The bump I was discussing in the past would be at 70-90 hz and thinking it over, I suspect that punkr won't need to have it- he wil just turn the bass up more on the crossover...
In the case of the 18" drivers, I believe shipping will be a factor in either case. It isn't fair to count it for one and not for the other..
Saving $100 might end up being significant- that is about the price of a cheap active crossover, or the difference between the analog crossover and the untra cool Behringer 2496
In the case of the 18" drivers, I believe shipping will be a factor in either case. It isn't fair to count it for one and not for the other..
Saving $100 might end up being significant- that is about the price of a cheap active crossover, or the difference between the analog crossover and the untra cool Behringer 2496
sreten said:
Understood. Mr. Punk is driven more by his fantasy of a good speaker than any idea of reality. But please read post # 524
Variac, you are right about the compression driver. When I refer to a 1" horn, I mean one with a 1" throat, no matter what the size of the diaphragm. 1" drivers tend to be similar in their power handling and frequency range. The bigger 2" drivers often have a 4" diaphragm, can play lower and handle more power. They also cost a lot more.
Crossing that Selenium D210 down below 2K is probably possible, but I doubt it will sound good or handle much power. What crossover point do you use?
As for the woofers and box, port tuning will make a big difference to the sound - as we all know. If the Dayton 18 is living in an 8 foot box, it can be tuned flat, or given a bump just by changing port length and/or size.
I agree with you and Tinitus that Punk will probably not need the low end bump. He can get lots more bass just by turning up the bass amp. Having not heard pro 18" drivers in his living room, Mr. Punk does not know yet how loud and powerful these are going to be. That’s why we keep telling him to start with just 1 per side, then add more later.
The Muddle in the Middle.
So we don't seem to be able to come to an agreement on the mid section. What size driver and what horn crossover combo.
As I see it: (Please comment)
12" mid. Good low mids, plenty of "body", good power handling. Punk likes the look. But may be difficult to crossover well to a 1" horn
10" mid. Almost as good for looks and power handling. Easier to cross to a 1" horn. Maybe better mids than a 12.
8" or dual 8". Well known, well liked solution. Good clean mids, easy to cross to a 1" horn. Dual 8s will be loud and handle a lot of power. Punkrokr doesn't like the look of it.
There will be a lot of overlap on the above, and actual performance will change with driver choice.
As for horns. We seem to all agree on the Selenium D210 for our horn driver. Horn still undecided.
Selenium give a minimum crossover of 1200Hz for the HM 25-25 horn with the D210 driver. But then in the specs for the D210, they say minimum 1500Hz or 2K(12dB/octave) for better power handling.
How does it sound down that low? No one has reported yet.
So we don't seem to be able to come to an agreement on the mid section. What size driver and what horn crossover combo.
As I see it: (Please comment)
12" mid. Good low mids, plenty of "body", good power handling. Punk likes the look. But may be difficult to crossover well to a 1" horn
10" mid. Almost as good for looks and power handling. Easier to cross to a 1" horn. Maybe better mids than a 12.
8" or dual 8". Well known, well liked solution. Good clean mids, easy to cross to a 1" horn. Dual 8s will be loud and handle a lot of power. Punkrokr doesn't like the look of it.
There will be a lot of overlap on the above, and actual performance will change with driver choice.
As for horns. We seem to all agree on the Selenium D210 for our horn driver. Horn still undecided.
Selenium give a minimum crossover of 1200Hz for the HM 25-25 horn with the D210 driver. But then in the specs for the D210, they say minimum 1500Hz or 2K(12dB/octave) for better power handling.
How does it sound down that low? No one has reported yet.
About the upper sound quality of mid driver I see it like this..
If you use well selected dedicated mids, there will be no real significant difference between 8"- 10" -12" in upper mid, up to about 2khz
Ofcourse the 8" will go higher on specs, but without much useable quality
If you want significant better midrange quality, the optimal size is 6" drivers
We also have avoided the possible hard load with double drivers and low impedance
Knowing that Punk wont have real quality amps for some time, it could be important
I prefer easy driven single drivers in each passband
Optimal crossover for 1" driver would be 3khz...but thats only possible with a 6" driver (Alpha 6A, ?)....and best woofer with this setup would be 12" or 15"....not a suggestion !
If you use well selected dedicated mids, there will be no real significant difference between 8"- 10" -12" in upper mid, up to about 2khz
Ofcourse the 8" will go higher on specs, but without much useable quality
If you want significant better midrange quality, the optimal size is 6" drivers
We also have avoided the possible hard load with double drivers and low impedance
Knowing that Punk wont have real quality amps for some time, it could be important
I prefer easy driven single drivers in each passband
Optimal crossover for 1" driver would be 3khz...but thats only possible with a 6" driver (Alpha 6A, ?)....and best woofer with this setup would be 12" or 15"....not a suggestion !
About horn lenses...well they cost money too... I think the most cost effective would be the 10" round waveguide...and it has a smooth throat.... dispersion is equal for both horisontal and vertical
I think it will be less sensitive to listening position
But you want to be certain ..... I guess we shouldnt do this then !
I surely dont like the horns with sharp inner edges along the hornline!
But you want to be certain ..... I guess we shouldnt do this then !
I surely dont like the horns with sharp inner edges along the hornline!
If you want it smaller and still have low cutoff I think HM 11-25 looks nice.... a little less dispersion.... but recommended in 210 specs ... and cheap !
Here ya go... I'm looking to bring this thread to and end so I finally got something I think everyone will like. the lines on it are where I will divide the cabinet in to separate enclosures. By making the woofer enclosures like That I will make use of what would have been unused space and this will allow me to make the cabinet shallower.
Drivers:
woofers-2 Dayton Pro 18"'s that's settled.
Tweeter- it seems that I'll still be using the D210Ti driver with the some form of a horn or waveguide.
Mids- well there is still contradiction over what I should use for the mid but I want to get this over with cause even for me 60+ pages is getting old, lol so I've decided to ditch the 12" and I was thinking something like dual Delta 10A mids or whatever you might think be a better choice. it's just with the dual 10" mids I figure that every one's happy, better sound (or so it was said that the 10" mid would sound better), more power to keep up with the woofers, and I get the tall speakers with plenty af large cones on it. 6 ft 2 in tall is what I calculate. and around 250 lbs
I rest my case, (or at least I think I do
)
Drivers:
woofers-2 Dayton Pro 18"'s that's settled.
Tweeter- it seems that I'll still be using the D210Ti driver with the some form of a horn or waveguide.
Mids- well there is still contradiction over what I should use for the mid but I want to get this over with cause even for me 60+ pages is getting old, lol so I've decided to ditch the 12" and I was thinking something like dual Delta 10A mids or whatever you might think be a better choice. it's just with the dual 10" mids I figure that every one's happy, better sound (or so it was said that the 10" mid would sound better), more power to keep up with the woofers, and I get the tall speakers with plenty af large cones on it. 6 ft 2 in tall is what I calculate. and around 250 lbs
I rest my case, (or at least I think I do
)Attachments
I was afraid of all those smaller circles. I thought they were 8" mid drivers!! Then I figured out they were ports! While some people keep the ports close to the floor for reinforcement of the bass, I don't think that will be necessary for you, so its OK. I assume they are spaced unevenly because of your drawing program 😉
The 2 bass, 2 mids and the tweeter in the middle should be your final design I think, and it looks great. The row of ports looks great too.
You still should have at least 3" around the drivers including top and bottom. Good news, that would make the boxes taller!
I really don't know if a 10" will be better than the 12, but it will certainly work. It has rising response like the 12, so will need some roll off at the top. It also goes to a high enough frequency-that's important.
The 2 bass, 2 mids and the tweeter in the middle should be your final design I think, and it looks great. The row of ports looks great too.
You still should have at least 3" around the drivers including top and bottom. Good news, that would make the boxes taller!
I really don't know if a 10" will be better than the 12, but it will certainly work. It has rising response like the 12, so will need some roll off at the top. It also goes to a high enough frequency-that's important.
Looks like a plan.
Dual Delta 8s? More than you need, and not cheap. But if that's what you want, OK.
We can use the D210Ti on the Dayton horn that Variac has for tweeter. No worries.
I would change the box layout a little. Will post a drawing of what I think for your consideration. BTW, what is the layout software you are using?
Dual Delta 8s? More than you need, and not cheap. But if that's what you want, OK.
We can use the D210Ti on the Dayton horn that Variac has for tweeter. No worries.
I would change the box layout a little. Will post a drawing of what I think for your consideration. BTW, what is the layout software you are using?
Hmm... well pano your configuration isn't from many of the one I've posted or at least drawn. Would that arrangement sound better than mine?
The drawing program I used is SmartDraw 7. THat's the link to the download page if anyone else wants to use it. Very simple program.
What horn does Variac have again?
And just so I know what I'm in about how much more bass will these beasts make compared the my primary current system ? This one is in my room and I'm surised at how accurate the sound is and how much much that little sub can pump out.
Actualy for all yall who think that I only like that big stuff I have a soft spot for this system. Just something about it.
If the sub cabinet for it wasn't locked up with 20 somethin odd patents and laws I'd like to recreate a bigger version of it with something like a 15" sub
( Do phase plugs like the ones one for the Logitech sattelites usaully create a slight buzzy scratchy noise or do I just need to adjust the equalizer?)
The drawing program I used is SmartDraw 7. THat's the link to the download page if anyone else wants to use it. Very simple program.
What horn does Variac have again?
And just so I know what I'm in about how much more bass will these beasts make compared the my primary current system ? This one is in my room and I'm surised at how accurate the sound is and how much much that little sub can pump out.
Actualy for all yall who think that I only like that big stuff I have a soft spot for this system. Just something about it.
If the sub cabinet for it wasn't locked up with 20 somethin odd patents and laws I'd like to recreate a bigger version of it with something like a 15" sub
( Do phase plugs like the ones one for the Logitech sattelites usaully create a slight buzzy scratchy noise or do I just need to adjust the equalizer?)
panomaniac said:
Hi,
RT by his own admission says he hasn't read the first half of the thread.
So whilst RT final paragraph sounds a reasonable summation, it doesn't
to me. That is because RT makes the tacit assumption that PKRR accepts
the inevitable compromises in sound quality such an approach involves,
IMO PKRR is simply ignoring these compromises and will be disappointed.
He is going to end up with a very good PA system if he makes it modular.
🙂/sreten.
punkrokr1701 said:
I couldn't see, but that's a single ported 12"? The whole 5.1 system is $200... a pair of the 18' woofers cost more than that on sale, and I don't think anyone will say you're getting ripped off. What do you think?
I think I laid out that you'll be able to get 125 db from at least 40hz to 15 khz at one meter. I couldn't find that kind of spec on those computer speakers. If you can find that, you've got your answer.
If the sub cabinet for it wasn't locked up with 20 somethin odd patents and laws I'd like to recreate a bigger version of it with something like a 15" sub
( Do phase plugs like the ones one for the Logitech sattelites usaully create a slight buzzy scratchy noise or do I just need to adjust the equalizer?)
First, the heck with patents. That's the beauty of DIY. As long as you're not selling what you make, claiming it's your own idea, or actively harming the patent holders- there's nothing stopping from building your own copy. For that matter, if you build one and find a way to significantly improve it in a way that hasn't been thought of before, then you can have your own patent.
sreten said:
So, those compromises are.... as far as I can see, there will be problems with the frequency response when you're off axis or too close. That's the nature of huge pro drivers with crossovers geared for maximum SPL, you need to give them a little space to breathe or else it doesn't sound as coherent as what we call HiFi.
tinitus said:
The problem here is comb filtering. It's one of the pitfalls of line array design. Honestly, the 8" above and below the horn is pushing it about as far as I'd want to for height of the mid drivers. I'd really wish someone could run a simulation to see what dispersion looks like for the different layouts.
joe carrow said:
Hi,
You can't see any others ?
You think at normal volumes they will sound good ?
🙂/sreten.
Honestly- yes I do, and I'll tell you why. If you're sitting close enough to these to listen at what I consider a "normal" volume, you're going to be too close to get a good frequency response at the listening position. In order to smooth it out and get good driver integration, I'd expect that you'd want to sit back at least 20 to 25 feet. At that distance, you have to turn it up a little more just to get the same volume level... and at that point the speakers are starting to get their blood moving 🙂
I listened to my Beta 8's at a distance of about 12 feet, and I had to turn them up just a little louder than I would have liked (for evening listening... daytime was no issue) to get them to really sound nice.
The more I think about this project, the more I think that Punk would be best served by just building the Blue project, and adding subs. Seriously, the beefed up horn and mid will really only come into play at 120+ db output.
The Blue will have SO much clean output for a home environment that it's silly to double the budget and come up with an unproven design (I'm no crossover designer... is anyone else on this thread a serious crossover designer?) just to get an extra 6 db out of the system. A 600 watt stereo pro amp would do fine with the Blues to destroy your livingroom, you really want to double the size of the speakers so that they don't blow up when you feed them 1200 watts? It's really only going to be a little louder.
If he were to build the blues, and then some matching subs to stand next to them, it would serve the purpose very well. He could use a 600+ watt amp for the main speakers, then use a subwoofer amp with built-in crossover to power the subs.
If the 8" and horn really aren't loud enough to keep up, he can upgrade them later. The 18", 8", and horn will probably integrate well enough that he'll have decent stereo image and driver integration as close as 15 feet away. There's nothing stopping him from building the sub as a platform on which to place the Blues.
Punkrokr1701: I am telling you- the Blues will do what you want, and already have a crossover that was designed by a professional. I'll stick around to help figure out how to do subs that will keep up, but I'm done screwing around for an extra 6 db that you might not even get to enjoy. These speakers are already going to hang in there with the speakers my fraternity used to throw parties with for 400+ people, used for PA in a football field, and for use with live bands. Those speakers were the JBL TR225. Those speakers would beat the project you want (and the Blues) on efficiency, but yours will win for bass.
Sorry if you feel like I've turned on you, but I'd like to hear to see this thread find a happy ending. There's still plenty for you to do to make these "yours", with box design, a paint job, and the subs. Go get 'em before the drivers are sold out!
I listened to my Beta 8's at a distance of about 12 feet, and I had to turn them up just a little louder than I would have liked (for evening listening... daytime was no issue) to get them to really sound nice.
The more I think about this project, the more I think that Punk would be best served by just building the Blue project, and adding subs. Seriously, the beefed up horn and mid will really only come into play at 120+ db output.
The Blue will have SO much clean output for a home environment that it's silly to double the budget and come up with an unproven design (I'm no crossover designer... is anyone else on this thread a serious crossover designer?) just to get an extra 6 db out of the system. A 600 watt stereo pro amp would do fine with the Blues to destroy your livingroom, you really want to double the size of the speakers so that they don't blow up when you feed them 1200 watts? It's really only going to be a little louder.
If he were to build the blues, and then some matching subs to stand next to them, it would serve the purpose very well. He could use a 600+ watt amp for the main speakers, then use a subwoofer amp with built-in crossover to power the subs.
If the 8" and horn really aren't loud enough to keep up, he can upgrade them later. The 18", 8", and horn will probably integrate well enough that he'll have decent stereo image and driver integration as close as 15 feet away. There's nothing stopping him from building the sub as a platform on which to place the Blues.
Punkrokr1701: I am telling you- the Blues will do what you want, and already have a crossover that was designed by a professional. I'll stick around to help figure out how to do subs that will keep up, but I'm done screwing around for an extra 6 db that you might not even get to enjoy. These speakers are already going to hang in there with the speakers my fraternity used to throw parties with for 400+ people, used for PA in a football field, and for use with live bands. Those speakers were the JBL TR225. Those speakers would beat the project you want (and the Blues) on efficiency, but yours will win for bass.
Sorry if you feel like I've turned on you, but I'd like to hear to see this thread find a happy ending. There's still plenty for you to do to make these "yours", with box design, a paint job, and the subs. Go get 'em before the drivers are sold out!
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