So with the recent posts we have a check list of things to watch out for, some logical choices and some differentiation to commercial consumer loudspeakers.
Also pointed out is diy versus another diy loudspeaker.
But can we all agree on a reasonable diy criteria of are the essentials ?
After l opened up the links in the Parts Express DIY loudspeaker competition is was interesting what made the winners come up with their approach?
When we look back at the most notable loudspeakers over the past 50 years not all of them would be considered perfect by today’s standards with tools like Klippel but they were unique.
The Klipschorn, the Tannoy monitor gold, the AR3, the Bose 901 and the Leak Sandwich are but a few that come to mind. Then in more recent times we have seen the Dunlavy, the B&W 801, ATC monitors found in recording studio control rooms and up market home HiFi systems.
It’s quite a miss mash in that’s it’s a challenge to pin down what is good, better than or best. Each system has its own compromises, strengths and weaknesses.
Also pointed out is diy versus another diy loudspeaker.
But can we all agree on a reasonable diy criteria of are the essentials ?
After l opened up the links in the Parts Express DIY loudspeaker competition is was interesting what made the winners come up with their approach?
When we look back at the most notable loudspeakers over the past 50 years not all of them would be considered perfect by today’s standards with tools like Klippel but they were unique.
The Klipschorn, the Tannoy monitor gold, the AR3, the Bose 901 and the Leak Sandwich are but a few that come to mind. Then in more recent times we have seen the Dunlavy, the B&W 801, ATC monitors found in recording studio control rooms and up market home HiFi systems.
It’s quite a miss mash in that’s it’s a challenge to pin down what is good, better than or best. Each system has its own compromises, strengths and weaknesses.
I have been pondering if diy loudspeaker builders are making the task too expensive and overly complicated by try to complete with popular consumer flagship or up market multi way systems?
Such consumer systems have to fit into a rigid framework of it must be passive, have to be of certain physical dimensions, have certain aesthetics and appeal to a particular buyer.
What if we diyers said no way and we took a purely objective approach to solving the acoustic challenges?
This makes me look at some interesting alternatives to expensive hifi drivers.
For example system with pro 10 inch mid bass driver in a bass reflex with an f3 of 70 hertz. Sensitivity 95 db. A high quality wave guide from Audiohorn and a high quality compression driver BMS or 18Sound. The woofer is a separate passive or active module under the mid bass - horn which is designed for low diffraction.
The whole thing not complicated, it uses reasonably priced drivers and delivers big bang on all metrics. Like a mini M2.
To my way of thinking being shoe horned into a sub 90 db sensitivity system using expensive $$$ hifi drivers is a no win situation against consumer systems. The amplifiers have to be big and everything gets expensive.
But if you can use your diy Aleph or your own diy amp then your sailing your own voyage into audio heaven!
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-4/8/nd3t.pdf
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/lf-driver/10-0/8/10ntlw2500
Such consumer systems have to fit into a rigid framework of it must be passive, have to be of certain physical dimensions, have certain aesthetics and appeal to a particular buyer.
What if we diyers said no way and we took a purely objective approach to solving the acoustic challenges?
This makes me look at some interesting alternatives to expensive hifi drivers.
For example system with pro 10 inch mid bass driver in a bass reflex with an f3 of 70 hertz. Sensitivity 95 db. A high quality wave guide from Audiohorn and a high quality compression driver BMS or 18Sound. The woofer is a separate passive or active module under the mid bass - horn which is designed for low diffraction.
The whole thing not complicated, it uses reasonably priced drivers and delivers big bang on all metrics. Like a mini M2.
To my way of thinking being shoe horned into a sub 90 db sensitivity system using expensive $$$ hifi drivers is a no win situation against consumer systems. The amplifiers have to be big and everything gets expensive.
But if you can use your diy Aleph or your own diy amp then your sailing your own voyage into audio heaven!
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-4/8/nd3t.pdf
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/lf-driver/10-0/8/10ntlw2500
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Sorry to interrupt. Old school: TL, OB, horn, omni, fullrange, array. New age: wireless, mobile, personalized, DSP, adaptive, 1st/2nd/3rd-person full surround. Already happened/happening. What's more objective than market forces?
If you think that any majority is always right, you will be ruled by the average idiot. OK, may be right in some countrys...
If people do not have homes and funds large enough to buy some decend speaker, they will buy the plastic junk that has one common feature: it is wireless and bluetooth.
It is a very common state of mind to reject things one can not effort. Today you do not admire the guy in his Porsche or Ferrari, you hate him because he is more successful, capable, hardworking and educated than you, while jelling at him he is destroying the planet. If you were true to your self, you would admit you want that Porsche too.
Just the same with HIFI. Instead of saving money and working harder to affort a nice flat and a good stereo system, you pretend to not need it. JBL gives you a wireless sound thing and marketing tells you, you are hip and up to date with such a cruel sound generator.
Anyone who listens to music wants the better reproduction if he can choose. Those who pretend to want something else just live a lie. For what ever reason it may be.
If people do not have homes and funds large enough to buy some decend speaker, they will buy the plastic junk that has one common feature: it is wireless and bluetooth.
It is a very common state of mind to reject things one can not effort. Today you do not admire the guy in his Porsche or Ferrari, you hate him because he is more successful, capable, hardworking and educated than you, while jelling at him he is destroying the planet. If you were true to your self, you would admit you want that Porsche too.
Just the same with HIFI. Instead of saving money and working harder to affort a nice flat and a good stereo system, you pretend to not need it. JBL gives you a wireless sound thing and marketing tells you, you are hip and up to date with such a cruel sound generator.
Anyone who listens to music wants the better reproduction if he can choose. Those who pretend to want something else just live a lie. For what ever reason it may be.
What is it with you today, angry with the rest of the world? 😉
edit: believe it or not, material possessions do not have the potential of making you truly happy,
however they do have the potential of appearing as if they did.
It is because people are more than just a bunch of dust and minerals merged in a fascinating way.
edit: believe it or not, material possessions do not have the potential of making you truly happy,
however they do have the potential of appearing as if they did.
It is because people are more than just a bunch of dust and minerals merged in a fascinating way.
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I think you are looking further than l was.
My context was the notion of buying a bunch of scan speak drivers and plugging them into the latest wiz bang simulators. All those diy two way and three way bookend systems are trapped within the same constraint’s.
l see hi end consumer bookshelf models based on this notion for up to $30,000. They use marketing with tantalum coated woofer diaphragms to justify the prices. What is a con job!
Those hi fi drivers in the 90 db category will not deliver the dynamic contrast or the harmonic expression that can create true realism of the original recorded event. So instead they deliberately offer you a loudspeaker with its own personality.
The reviewer is paid with twelve months of advertising to give the holy grail review.
This is unless you want to listen at one metre like a nearfield monitor with 85 db level.
At 3 metres it will be 75 db level.
So you increase the power input X 10 for 85 db. You want 10 db peaks to 95 db that is X 100 the power of the 75 db level.
At this point the woofer 39mm VC is 350 degrees C and your tweeter is flatlined dynamically with the acoustic impedance of such a small surface area of the diaphragm.
Enter the high performance FEA wave guide with a high performance compression driver.
A pro dual gap mid bass driver with 95-96 db only needs a 1/4 of the power or less input for the same level. The trade off of increased efficiency is reduced LF bandwidth which can be covered by a dedicated woofer if required.
Dual gap bass drivers have vastly superior motor structures which translates into harmonic expression and real dynamic contrast.
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/lf-driver/12-0/8/12NTLW2500.pdf
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/lf-driver/10-0/8/10ntlw3500-8ohm.pdf
Game over man. Game over.
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One common issue I’ve noticed is that many people don’t have the slightest idea of what truly high-quality sound is, or that it’s even possible to experience it at home. The first time they hear a well-tuned audio system—one that brings tears to their eyes and makes their jaws drop—they realize what they’ve been missing. It’s only after this kind of eye-opening experience that they start to pursue better sound quality, often becoming passionate about it for years to come.
I believe it’s a matter of educating people about what’s possible. Unfortunately, modern marketing often works against this. Companies focus on pushing new products frequently, rather than promoting long-term satisfaction with quality gear. This approach encourages repeated buying instead of investing in something that will last and continue to bring joy over the years.
This principle doesn’t just apply to audio; it’s true for many areas of life. For example, if you think your Volkswagen Golf is sporty and fun to drive, try getting behind the wheel of a Porsche 911. That experience will give you a whole new perspective on what driving enjoyment really means. It’s about showing people what they can aspire to, beyond the constraints of mass-market offerings.
Furthermore, when people realize they can actively participate in this process of improving sound quality, with the guidance and support of the DIY Audio forum, it becomes even more engaging. They see that upgrading is a journey, one that’s incredibly rewarding. In the end, it’s all about the music. For me, the hands-on learning experience and the satisfaction of improving my sound system are what I enjoy the most! Much more so, as others have pointed out, than swiping a card. My 2 cents anyway! 😉
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I think visiting other diy builders is a good way of exploring what might be possible.
Listen to an orchestra practice is quite enlightening. It provides a realistic insight into real sound versus hifi.
This is what prompted my post 367.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be a refrigerator size loudspeaker.
Listen to an orchestra practice is quite enlightening. It provides a realistic insight into real sound versus hifi.
This is what prompted my post 367.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be a refrigerator size loudspeaker.
Hi MtIjazz
I think you have raised an interesting point.
I agree in principle but as soon and l start to validate this point l believe they have these hi end experiences in a dealer show rooms that has been carefully set up. I agree that we sort of only accept that something is better after actually experiencing it. This is perhaps because we are good at filling in the gaps in sound reproduction with obvious errors.
But we can instantly determine l live piano playing in a busy shopping mall.
I believe this is because the human ears primary function is to map and decode shifts in dynamic loudness.
As to marketing the whole hifi thing is about family entertainment these days with the convenience of streaming. The hi end hifi is a luxury product thing geared to aspirational buys with deep pockets. The margins are massive on that stuff.
Because advertising drives the media it’s fair to say we are conditioned to believe what we see and read.
In diy the inertia of marketing is still there and we feel compelled to look for what we think are the best hifi drivers. This might satisfy some diy builders.
But as you point out after experiencing something more ambitious it’s hard to go backwards. Put simply a loudspeaker that can reproduce larger more accurate shifts in dynamic range with all other metrics being equal wins every time.
But just try and convince the diy builder? He generally won’t believe you until he experiences it for himself.
I think you have raised an interesting point.
I agree in principle but as soon and l start to validate this point l believe they have these hi end experiences in a dealer show rooms that has been carefully set up. I agree that we sort of only accept that something is better after actually experiencing it. This is perhaps because we are good at filling in the gaps in sound reproduction with obvious errors.
But we can instantly determine l live piano playing in a busy shopping mall.
I believe this is because the human ears primary function is to map and decode shifts in dynamic loudness.
As to marketing the whole hifi thing is about family entertainment these days with the convenience of streaming. The hi end hifi is a luxury product thing geared to aspirational buys with deep pockets. The margins are massive on that stuff.
Because advertising drives the media it’s fair to say we are conditioned to believe what we see and read.
In diy the inertia of marketing is still there and we feel compelled to look for what we think are the best hifi drivers. This might satisfy some diy builders.
But as you point out after experiencing something more ambitious it’s hard to go backwards. Put simply a loudspeaker that can reproduce larger more accurate shifts in dynamic range with all other metrics being equal wins every time.
But just try and convince the diy builder? He generally won’t believe you until he experiences it for himself.
100% agree. True of all aspects of audio and many, many other hobbies and interests.
I have a lot of experience driving family sedans and minivans, and am quite adept at it, know a lot about them, and have even done my fair share of maintenance on them. However I have never had the pleasure of driving a Bugotti. McClaren, Maserati, or Ferrari (etc), and have never worked on them or had much exposure to them.... I'm certain there's no comparison in pure performance compared to a Sedona, and would guess that many small maintenance tasks matter more than they would on a family car. I believe there's a similar level of audio gear that many do not get much exposure to, or at least no enough exposure to really appreciate what it can do. I was very fortunate to be exposed to a slew of fairly cutting edge gear early on in my journey, and I learned things I never could have without that exposure and the insights associated with it. That not only gave me an exemplary SQ example, it also taught me to pursue many aspects of SQ improvement that I think many don't. As with anything, how do you know what you don't know until it gets pointed out? Audio in general, and especially speaker building is a journey that we often start with no particular idea where it will lead, and a destination that we may or not ever get to. Hopefully we never stop learning.
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I think one of the impractical aspects of these hi end or more realistic systems is the size of them and the size of the room they are typically demonstrated in.
The equipment alone will fill half the floor space of some residential home living rooms. But in a large show room this isn’t nearly that obvious.
So unless you have a large expansive listening room to house a large system owning or building those systems is sheer fantasy or lunacy.
At one point l was set on cloning the OMA Monarchs only to realise in the end that they were massive loudspeakers measuring about 6 feet in height, 3 feet deep & 4 feet wide.
I did however model the Monarch in Hornresp. With dual 15” woofers they have a healthy in room response extending from -3 db @ 30 hertz with a sensitivity of 104 db 1 watt @ 1 metre. A tuned throat chamber creates a low pass filter @ 900 hertz making an electrical low pass filter on the woofers unnecessary. The horn wings load the woofers down to 65 hertz. Below that room placement and boundary low frequency reinforcement provides low frequency extension according to Hornresp.
I imagine they would pair well with a valve SET amplifier.
A brilliant design by the late Bill Woods.
The equipment alone will fill half the floor space of some residential home living rooms. But in a large show room this isn’t nearly that obvious.
So unless you have a large expansive listening room to house a large system owning or building those systems is sheer fantasy or lunacy.
At one point l was set on cloning the OMA Monarchs only to realise in the end that they were massive loudspeakers measuring about 6 feet in height, 3 feet deep & 4 feet wide.
I did however model the Monarch in Hornresp. With dual 15” woofers they have a healthy in room response extending from -3 db @ 30 hertz with a sensitivity of 104 db 1 watt @ 1 metre. A tuned throat chamber creates a low pass filter @ 900 hertz making an electrical low pass filter on the woofers unnecessary. The horn wings load the woofers down to 65 hertz. Below that room placement and boundary low frequency reinforcement provides low frequency extension according to Hornresp.
I imagine they would pair well with a valve SET amplifier.
A brilliant design by the late Bill Woods.
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During my life have seen a variety of audio "downsizing." Pipe organs to electronic ones then to midi. "Sounds almost as good!" "Costs a lot less."
Acoustic grand pianos to electronic units; the same...
Analog to digital; sounds a little harsh but look at all those noise and dynamic improvements.
Then *.wav files to MP3 -- sounds almost as good, right?
Then from 2013 on all of recorded music is made free to stream on your phone. Can't be worth much if its free, right? And where's the pictures? Want to see something as I listen...
So it has always been the same downsizing in my perspective -- almost as good, right?
And why?
Well there are a whole lot more people, right? No room for big speakers when there aren't enough homes, right?
Have parties where musical events feature my high-end system and have never heard anyone compliment the audio quality. Plenty of comments about how big speakers mess with the decor however.
It's not a musical world. Audio is just not important in our current society.
Acoustic grand pianos to electronic units; the same...
Analog to digital; sounds a little harsh but look at all those noise and dynamic improvements.
Then *.wav files to MP3 -- sounds almost as good, right?
Then from 2013 on all of recorded music is made free to stream on your phone. Can't be worth much if its free, right? And where's the pictures? Want to see something as I listen...
So it has always been the same downsizing in my perspective -- almost as good, right?
And why?
Well there are a whole lot more people, right? No room for big speakers when there aren't enough homes, right?
Have parties where musical events feature my high-end system and have never heard anyone compliment the audio quality. Plenty of comments about how big speakers mess with the decor however.
It's not a musical world. Audio is just not important in our current society.
An audio system that does not strike an emotional reaction with the music has missed the mark imho. My point is that if pianist is playing a real piano in a shopping mall it stops people in their tracks.
Try that with a hifi system and they just keep walking.
Once you break it down and analyse why it has nothing to do with it being one hifi brand or another. Its because hifi speakers cannot approach the visceral impact that a piano has as a percussion instrument.
You’d need something like twenty tweeters, thirty mid cones and forty eight inch woofers to approach that level of realism Hifi then is music coming from two little boxes in your room. It always was and always will be.
A JBL M2 with significant 1,000 + watt power amplifiers comes closer. But then the HIFi fanatics say oh that’s not hifi. They are correct because hifi isn’t real sound and there’s a huge rebellion against real sound. It’s like hifi is has a religious cult like preciousness about it that only the gifted understand . If you don’t have an Uber hiend $$$ you’re not part of the hi society.
To be honest what the pocket liners and the marketing department want us to think is the transistor radio version of real sound.
Try that with a hifi system and they just keep walking.
Once you break it down and analyse why it has nothing to do with it being one hifi brand or another. Its because hifi speakers cannot approach the visceral impact that a piano has as a percussion instrument.
You’d need something like twenty tweeters, thirty mid cones and forty eight inch woofers to approach that level of realism Hifi then is music coming from two little boxes in your room. It always was and always will be.
A JBL M2 with significant 1,000 + watt power amplifiers comes closer. But then the HIFi fanatics say oh that’s not hifi. They are correct because hifi isn’t real sound and there’s a huge rebellion against real sound. It’s like hifi is has a religious cult like preciousness about it that only the gifted understand . If you don’t have an Uber hiend $$$ you’re not part of the hi society.
To be honest what the pocket liners and the marketing department want us to think is the transistor radio version of real sound.