Re: Re: Re: What "not" "the same properties"??
If I don't use carbon comps primarily because of their non-linearity, why should I worry about their noises? They are deadly quiet when not used!
Did not I tell you already about non-linearity of resistors? Now, please read the thread slowly, letter by letter, to understand what people already wrote about resistors.
Professor smith said:
you seem to be fond of linearity but did you know that the response of the human ear is said to be logarithmic?
If I don't use carbon comps primarily because of their non-linearity, why should I worry about their noises? They are deadly quiet when not used!
cheap-Jack said:
Did not I tell you already about non-linearity of resistors? Now, please read the thread slowly, letter by letter, to understand what people already wrote about resistors.
hey-Hey!!!,
...and that has *WHAT* to do with resistors? Stay on topic please, if you'd be so kind.
FYI, I have my pentode amps hooked to speakers of mid-100's sensitivity( db/1W-1m), and have no noise issuing forth. It does not seem much to worry about even if it is 3 to 5x what a properly functioning triode would deliver. On that score, I've run across far more noisy triodes than pentodes in my adventures...I think yr text books are misleading you. Go read them again, and take note of things like decimal point location in those noise equations you've seen.
cheers,
Douglas
...and that has *WHAT* to do with resistors? Stay on topic please, if you'd be so kind.
FYI, I have my pentode amps hooked to speakers of mid-100's sensitivity( db/1W-1m), and have no noise issuing forth. It does not seem much to worry about even if it is 3 to 5x what a properly functioning triode would deliver. On that score, I've run across far more noisy triodes than pentodes in my adventures...I think yr text books are misleading you. Go read them again, and take note of things like decimal point location in those noise equations you've seen.
cheers,
Douglas
What linearity you're talking about?
Hi.
Unlike an active device like a tube or a bi-polar which exhibit non-linear transfer characteristsic. But a carbon resistor is a passive device much much more linear in audio spectrum vs a magnetic passive device, like a transformer or a choke.
So tell us a carbon resistor is non-linear in what ???
Sorry, I am a man who wants to know exact definiton of whatever.
c-J
Wavebourn said:
Hi.
Unlike an active device like a tube or a bi-polar which exhibit non-linear transfer characteristsic. But a carbon resistor is a passive device much much more linear in audio spectrum vs a magnetic passive device, like a transformer or a choke.
So tell us a carbon resistor is non-linear in what ???
Sorry, I am a man who wants to know exact definiton of whatever.
c-J
Re: What linearity you're talking about?
Same here . What's a 'cheap-jack' and why do you name yourself so ?
Why slag off transformers on a thread regarding resistors ?
Being anal about resistor linearity and noise is a bit pointless when you consider non-linearities and noise of active devices . I would be very interested to see your test results which prove otherwise . Same goes for your comments regarding transformers and chokes . What did you use , how did you use it and why did you not like it in comparison to resistors ?
316A
Same here . What's a 'cheap-jack' and why do you name yourself so ?
Why slag off transformers on a thread regarding resistors ?
Being anal about resistor linearity and noise is a bit pointless when you consider non-linearities and noise of active devices . I would be very interested to see your test results which prove otherwise . Same goes for your comments regarding transformers and chokes . What did you use , how did you use it and why did you not like it in comparison to resistors ?
316A
Professor smith said:
you seem to be fond of linearity but did you know that the response of the human ear is said to be logarithmic?
This argument is utterly irrelevant. Amplifiers are (ideally) linear devices. Music is (ideally) recoded "as is", in linear fashion. This ensures that reproduction from medium through amplifier (ideally) matches the live performance.
Now your hearing may have logarithmic, square or any other response but if the original music is what you would enjoy then those ideal components mentioned above will provide you with the very same experience.
We do not live in ideal world though so there is no such thing as a perfectly linear amplifier. However that doesn't mean one should simply discard such a simple change that can improve linearity of their amplifier; if more linear resistors are avaliable that have no downsides, use them ! Why introduce further non-linearities, unless distorted and mangled sound is what you actually prefer ?
Re: Re: What linearity you're talking about?
Guys, even when visited by people who prefer certain other forums, let's not allow this place to become like those forums in content.
316a said:
Guys, even when visited by people who prefer certain other forums, let's not allow this place to become like those forums in content.
Arnulf said:
It is not quite utterly irrelevant. No amplifier is perfectly linear, and certain types of non-linearities are responded to by the brain differently than others. Thus, when designing an amp, while less distortion is generally better than more, the type of distortion exhibited may be the more important factor.
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/articles/distortion_feedback.pdf
http://www.soc.northwestern.edu/brainvolts/documents/Lee_et_al_JofNeuro2009.pdf
http://www.soc.northwestern.edu/brainvolts/documents/KrausSkoePClarkAshley_Annals_Rev1.pdf
I am not the huge resistor buff here nor do I have the most experience in this forum by any means I just joined. I just do mods for fun and write out experience with different components.
Currently the arguments seem to be me more in regards to which manufacturer has the better resistor or better locations for separate types of resistors rather than which resistors are typically better which is where this thread intended to go...
Now from my limited experience in comparison to most of the individuals on this forum... I've found that if your searching for the most neutral non-magnetic resistor in signal lines you spend around $4 a resistor and buy tantalum resistors aside from that you can go metal film which from my experience has an upper frequency "boost" some manufacturers sound great some manufacturers sound like shrills. In regards to carbon comp or carbon film carbon comp from my experience likes to distort more than the carbon film. The carbon film tends to be from my experience more "warm" than the metal film and tend not to be as "harsh" in the upper frequencies... Wire wound are some of the cleanest and smoothest but aren't typically used everyone in the amp so...
What it all boils down to is you taking say 20-100 bucks and buying a bunch of resistors and placing them in and out of your amp... Not all at the same time... Do Allen Bradley carbon comps and play through it for 2 weeks, then switch over to Holco after 2 more weeks switch to Kiwame etc... Till you've "experienced" your share of resistors so you have an overall feel of what they do or don't supply to the sound.
Then start analyzing locations of which make and manufacturer sound better in separate locations, which again is very opinionated but I assure you there are enough audiophiles in here to give you advice as to good and bad locations for combos...
Everybody's input here is from personal experience and this could turn in to a flame war in regards to what people do and don't hear... As far as finding resistors and capacitors I use: Parts Connexion
I know somebody said they couldn't find Allen Bradley 1/2w any more so... look there ^^ 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 etc...
Currently the arguments seem to be me more in regards to which manufacturer has the better resistor or better locations for separate types of resistors rather than which resistors are typically better which is where this thread intended to go...
Now from my limited experience in comparison to most of the individuals on this forum... I've found that if your searching for the most neutral non-magnetic resistor in signal lines you spend around $4 a resistor and buy tantalum resistors aside from that you can go metal film which from my experience has an upper frequency "boost" some manufacturers sound great some manufacturers sound like shrills. In regards to carbon comp or carbon film carbon comp from my experience likes to distort more than the carbon film. The carbon film tends to be from my experience more "warm" than the metal film and tend not to be as "harsh" in the upper frequencies... Wire wound are some of the cleanest and smoothest but aren't typically used everyone in the amp so...
What it all boils down to is you taking say 20-100 bucks and buying a bunch of resistors and placing them in and out of your amp... Not all at the same time... Do Allen Bradley carbon comps and play through it for 2 weeks, then switch over to Holco after 2 more weeks switch to Kiwame etc... Till you've "experienced" your share of resistors so you have an overall feel of what they do or don't supply to the sound.
Then start analyzing locations of which make and manufacturer sound better in separate locations, which again is very opinionated but I assure you there are enough audiophiles in here to give you advice as to good and bad locations for combos...
Everybody's input here is from personal experience and this could turn in to a flame war in regards to what people do and don't hear... As far as finding resistors and capacitors I use: Parts Connexion
I know somebody said they couldn't find Allen Bradley 1/2w any more so... look there ^^ 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 etc...
When people ask for advise I wouldn't tell them to throw a few hundred dollars out of the window and test all of them on their own. And we all know these "famous" resistors, but the questions are...
- what's their secret? (we try to figure out with technical parameters)
- which to choose for specific locations. You can't tell ppl to use brand X everywhere. Especially when some of these resistors cost 20-30$ (like some of the Vishay S102's)
- what are their requirements? i.e. I need them to operate for decades so I stay away from carbon types even if it's that famous Kiwame. Other's build their stuff, enjoy it for a few months till they replace it with something better and then it ends up locked down in the cellar.
You will need answers for all of the above questions to define a "good sounding" resistor.
- what's their secret? (we try to figure out with technical parameters)
- which to choose for specific locations. You can't tell ppl to use brand X everywhere. Especially when some of these resistors cost 20-30$ (like some of the Vishay S102's)
- what are their requirements? i.e. I need them to operate for decades so I stay away from carbon types even if it's that famous Kiwame. Other's build their stuff, enjoy it for a few months till they replace it with something better and then it ends up locked down in the cellar.
You will need answers for all of the above questions to define a "good sounding" resistor.
Professor smith said:
Arnulf (post #67) made good reply to this, but I really feel that sometimes we are getting ahead of ourselves in our fervour, and with respect, do not see the wood for the trees.
So to repeat: The amplifier is a reproducing device; it is simply required to put out what has been put in, without adding or removing anything. That is our aim; it has nothing to do with the characteristics of hearing or whether the second trumpet was false or the conductor sneezed. Those are common factors. It has already been 'incorporated' in the amplifier input, in a manner of speaking.
Also, regarding which distortions are complementing hearing and which not etc., I think it is an error to pursue making the errors of our amplifiers 'nice' to the ear. [This is going the route first suggested by John Hiraga back in the 70s which initiated a lot of false notions regarding amplifier aberrations, surviving even to this day.] As Douglas Self once suggested, if that is on our agenda we should fit a 'niceness control' to our instruments.
I believe what is irritating to hearing in terms of electronic distortion, including listener fatigue et al, has been well researched for decades now. The aim is to get rid of the irritating aberrations, not to make them march in well-disciplined ranks. That has been achieved by some and the technology is known. Where this is still wanting, the problem is not in the first place for lack knowledge of the physiology/psychology of hearing pertaining to this. Yes, amplifiers are not perfect, but unless one's primary pursuit is to add another 0 to the right of the distortion figure decimal point just to be 'better' instead of aiming at what is inaudible to hearing, it is of academic value only to go hair-splitting matters that amount to fractions of threshold of audibility for such. In that quest modern resistors are not nearly at the top of my list.
As I m new to tube amp mod, I have found changing resistors at certain places do modify the sound. However, being new to this area and to avoid any further 'bumps' crossing, can I know how should we start first and which area.
Every resistor in the tube amp serves its works, or else it is 'poor design'. I have come to know from the thread here as folows
1. Grid resistors
2. Grid stoppers
3. Anode resistors
4. Cathode resistors
5. Global Feedback resistors
6. Anode feedback resistors
7. Power resistors / filter resistors
I borrow from some other experience as here
For signal resistors, such as global feedback use Vishay bulk metal foil such as S102J, if not use Caddock TF020. If u like really warm sound, use Riken
For power resistors, use Mills MRA resistors.
I hope someone can share more information as which one of categories above considered more critical than the other
Every resistor in the tube amp serves its works, or else it is 'poor design'. I have come to know from the thread here as folows
1. Grid resistors
2. Grid stoppers
3. Anode resistors
4. Cathode resistors
5. Global Feedback resistors
6. Anode feedback resistors
7. Power resistors / filter resistors
I borrow from some other experience as here
For signal resistors, such as global feedback use Vishay bulk metal foil such as S102J, if not use Caddock TF020. If u like really warm sound, use Riken
For power resistors, use Mills MRA resistors.
I hope someone can share more information as which one of categories above considered more critical than the other
Well said John,
and on the topic that you have raised, which is different than the original one that I (stupidly) started, I have only to say that:
While I agree that an amp should be a "black box" that takes it's input and faithfully reproduces it - to a much higher power, the total system needs to be taken into account.
By this I mean the speakers, their enclosure, the room they are in and the relative humidity ... ok the last, only for the purist.
and secondly - I have to ask the question, why the hell are we building tube amps with distortion numbers like 1-10% and think that they sound good? SS amps regularly insist that point zero zero (repeat) uno % distortion are the norm...
Why should I care if my resistors have a trace amount of inductance or capacitance?
Personally I could care less, unless the result is the sound I'm looking for.
Lastly - wow, I only expected a few responses to this thread. The firestorm that occurred afterwards was beyond expectation.
Hopefully peace talks won't be needed
and on the topic that you have raised, which is different than the original one that I (stupidly) started, I have only to say that:
While I agree that an amp should be a "black box" that takes it's input and faithfully reproduces it - to a much higher power, the total system needs to be taken into account.
By this I mean the speakers, their enclosure, the room they are in and the relative humidity ... ok the last, only for the purist.
and secondly - I have to ask the question, why the hell are we building tube amps with distortion numbers like 1-10% and think that they sound good? SS amps regularly insist that point zero zero (repeat) uno % distortion are the norm...
Why should I care if my resistors have a trace amount of inductance or capacitance?
Personally I could care less, unless the result is the sound I'm looking for.
Lastly - wow, I only expected a few responses to this thread. The firestorm that occurred afterwards was beyond expectation.
Hopefully peace talks won't be needed
Wavebourn: Piano doesn't reproduice sound, it produces sound
dsavitsk: Indeed, I mentioned that in my post. However resistor non-linearity has different effect on output (non)linearity depending on where such resistor is placed. A non-linear resistor may sound pleasing to you in one position, its careful choice and placement may even compensate for non-linearity of other parts of the amplifier (tube for example) but there is just no way one could make a blanket statement along the lines of "<insert resistor type here> sound better than the rest".
dsavitsk: Indeed, I mentioned that in my post. However resistor non-linearity has different effect on output (non)linearity depending on where such resistor is placed. A non-linear resistor may sound pleasing to you in one position, its careful choice and placement may even compensate for non-linearity of other parts of the amplifier (tube for example) but there is just no way one could make a blanket statement along the lines of "<insert resistor type here> sound better than the rest".
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