catapult said:
Yeah it may some potential with some good mods. Foam for one. Than abrupt transition from mouth to baffle needs fixing too. Just wish it was about an inch bigger in every direction.
Hope that made sense. I had a glass of wine and my Ambien is kicking in
😱
ZilchLab said:
ORLY😉 where?
I do believe we are scraping the bottom of the barrel for performance under $10.
Did you find a deal on JBL paper megaphones? Or are we headed off to QSC land?
****
@all
Looks like Patrick is correct on that the WG is not listed as PT...
Thanks Patrick
NEO Dan said:
Definitely! I've wasted way too much time and money building horns, waveguides are the way to go IMHO. I'll post some pics of all the ones I've tried later.
NEO Dan said:
HUH? We want "Value," too? I am RUINED!
[I thought we were having a theoretical discussion here.... 😀 ]
Re: My personal opinions of various design philosophies
Wayne
You know that I don't agree with this. It is unclear that an eliptical waveguide is going to end up better than a circular one. I am building an elliptical one now to test, but I am not really that confident that all the "compromises" will end up in favor of the elliptical. You are guessing - you don't have real data.
Of course all designs are compromises and you guys seem all caught up in the absolutes of things - missing the forset for the trees. From what I know now a circular to circular transition from low to high works the best. New data may change that, but my bet is on that it won't.
You, like Wayne, are guessing. You don't have any data to show this is true, but yet you seem so sure of what I would do!!
Yes I elliminate the floor and ceiling bounce, but that doesn't prove a thing. There is no data to say that an elliptical device would be better. From my point of view using axisymmetric and ceiling dampers is the "best" compromise.
I did not refuse to post them I just didn't have the time to post them and refused to jump when people said jump. Of course any two way speaker is going to have lobes at the crossover in the vertical direction, mine do, your do, all will, whats the point? To claim that non-axisymmetric devices "cure all" is just nieve - its just not that simple. I have not seen any speaker system with as good a vertical control as mine, but, yes, only I have that data for now. Vetrical "beamwidth" plots are meaningless, I have posted those before. To see the true performance you need a polar map with ALL the data.
My complaint about the JBL device has to do with the smoothness of the response NOT the off axis control. Any diffraction device works well at control, but sounds bad - WHY? Because of the same diffraction that creates the good off axis response. You are creating more problems than you solve with diffraction. The key is polar control WITHOUT diffraction - thats not trivial and the JBL device that I testsed doesn't achieve that. For its price its a good device, but I would never use one. Any body seriuos enough to spend time here is seriuos enough to buy a decent horn.
Wayne Parham said:
Wayne
You know that I don't agree with this. It is unclear that an eliptical waveguide is going to end up better than a circular one. I am building an elliptical one now to test, but I am not really that confident that all the "compromises" will end up in favor of the elliptical. You are guessing - you don't have real data.
Of course all designs are compromises and you guys seem all caught up in the absolutes of things - missing the forset for the trees. From what I know now a circular to circular transition from low to high works the best. New data may change that, but my bet is on that it won't.
ZilchLab said:
You, like Wayne, are guessing. You don't have any data to show this is true, but yet you seem so sure of what I would do!!
Yes I elliminate the floor and ceiling bounce, but that doesn't prove a thing. There is no data to say that an elliptical device would be better. From my point of view using axisymmetric and ceiling dampers is the "best" compromise.
ZilchLab said:
I did not refuse to post them I just didn't have the time to post them and refused to jump when people said jump. Of course any two way speaker is going to have lobes at the crossover in the vertical direction, mine do, your do, all will, whats the point? To claim that non-axisymmetric devices "cure all" is just nieve - its just not that simple. I have not seen any speaker system with as good a vertical control as mine, but, yes, only I have that data for now. Vetrical "beamwidth" plots are meaningless, I have posted those before. To see the true performance you need a polar map with ALL the data.
My complaint about the JBL device has to do with the smoothness of the response NOT the off axis control. Any diffraction device works well at control, but sounds bad - WHY? Because of the same diffraction that creates the good off axis response. You are creating more problems than you solve with diffraction. The key is polar control WITHOUT diffraction - thats not trivial and the JBL device that I testsed doesn't achieve that. For its price its a good device, but I would never use one. Any body seriuos enough to spend time here is seriuos enough to buy a decent horn.
ZilchLab said:
I would have said that a comment like that seemed beneth you, but after reading the posts here I am not so sure.
Patrick is not the only one happy with his purchase - ask any one of my customers what they think. Please!! I'll put you in contact with any of them. They will ALL agree! So please stop being so rude.
ZilchLab said:
HUH? We want "Value," too? I am RUINED!
[I thought we were having a theoretical discussion here.... 😀 ]
I guess I mis-spoke.I meant I doubt there is "more" performance to be had for $10. I think it has a potential "value" much greater than the modest parts would suggest.
Don't get all
and bothered, LOL😀gedlee said:
I believe that you and I came to a mutual accommodation a year ago, Earl, and that has certainly not changed on my part.
You told this forum earlier that you damp the early floor reflections and diffuse those at the ceiling, which I cite as evidence that wide vertical directivity may not be so desirable in and of itself as one proponent of axisymmetric waveguides here supposes.
I am not suggesting that Patrick made a wrong purchase decision FOR HIMSELF, by any means, rather that his argument claiming JBL PT waveguides are inferior to his choice because they are made in several axi-asymmetric variants is devoid of merit:
1) They are also available in axisymmetric versions, and,
2) There is nothing in waveguide theory suggesting that axi-asymmetric implementations are inherently compromised.
Were he to formulate and present a considered response to the counter-arguments, we might debate these questions, but instead, he repeatedly reposts this fallacious argument here and on another forum, which leads me to conclude that he is less interested in discussing the issues than in pursuit of approbation here.
If Progressive Transition waveguides are truly inferior, it is not because of their response capabilities, directivity, or axi-asymmetry....
Re: Re: My personal opinions of various design philosophies
Mr. Geddes boldly repeats his well known claims, bashing all other designs than his. There is NO "data" hat supports his claims. He refuses "data" as not to jump when other tell him. Whilst that we are told that we can not evaluate his superiority without that "data".
He complaints about diffraction, but his own device shows some severe compromises in that respect. He goes for smoothness, but what about smoothing before publishing some measurement? By the way recent horns do very well, better than domes with RCF & 18sound. There is NO data on perceptibility of HOM. What Mr. Geddes has done on that topic is way to easy to justify his attitude.
so long
gedlee said:
Mr. Geddes boldly repeats his well known claims, bashing all other designs than his. There is NO "data" hat supports his claims. He refuses "data" as not to jump when other tell him. Whilst that we are told that we can not evaluate his superiority without that "data".
He complaints about diffraction, but his own device shows some severe compromises in that respect. He goes for smoothness, but what about smoothing before publishing some measurement? By the way recent horns do very well, better than domes with RCF & 18sound. There is NO data on perceptibility of HOM. What Mr. Geddes has done on that topic is way to easy to justify his attitude.
so long
I have personally listened to a number of the major horn loudspeakers. I've evaluated Avant Garde, Tad, Lambda Unity, Gedlee Summa, Emerald Physics, Triangle, Bastianis, Audio Kinesis, Edgarhorn, and a number of others.
There were only a handful that really stood out.
We've been having a heated debate about ten dollar waveguides and directivity and polar plots.
But I realized something, as I read the thread on Audio Karma:
I don't think many people have heard a state-of-the-art constant directivity waveguide.
In fact, I couldn't find a single post where someone said that they bought a plane ticket to go listen to one, or they found someone on the internet and asked them for an audition. (I had to do both these things, as these speakers are hard to find!!! I flew halfway across the country to hear the Summas 😛 )
So this is a direct question to Zilch and Xpert:
Please name a commercial loudspeaker that features a constant directivity waveguide that you've personally audtioned, and describe your reaction to it.
I'm curious, because for me it was a revelation! Just take a look at my posting history, I've been raving about them for years 😀
But if you've never heard one, then describing it on an internet forum is like explaining a sunset to a blind man.
There were only a handful that really stood out.
We've been having a heated debate about ten dollar waveguides and directivity and polar plots.
But I realized something, as I read the thread on Audio Karma:
I don't think many people have heard a state-of-the-art constant directivity waveguide.
In fact, I couldn't find a single post where someone said that they bought a plane ticket to go listen to one, or they found someone on the internet and asked them for an audition. (I had to do both these things, as these speakers are hard to find!!! I flew halfway across the country to hear the Summas 😛 )
So this is a direct question to Zilch and Xpert:
Please name a commercial loudspeaker that features a constant directivity waveguide that you've personally audtioned, and describe your reaction to it.
I'm curious, because for me it was a revelation! Just take a look at my posting history, I've been raving about them for years 😀
But if you've never heard one, then describing it on an internet forum is like explaining a sunset to a blind man.
badman said:
I posted a method to make elliptical wavguides about three years back. It's more work than a circular waveguide, but there are a lot of reasons to go that route...
I can dig up the link if anyone wants it.
Here's a "family photo" of some of my weird creations.
The elliptical waveguide is in the center, with a foam plug. The horn on the left has one too, but the grill cloth hides it. The big horn looks like hell because I kept modifying it over the span of a year
gedlee said:
Can ALL of the subjective opinion including car analogies be toned down? Im trying to learn stuff here 😀
This includes anyone posting that speakers are great because their customers are happy. There are thousands of BOSE owners that are extremely happy too but we all know we can not take subjective opinion as fact 😉
This does not mean Geddes speakers are not incredible. Everything points to them being great sound wise....no need to post extremely subjective, "My customers rave about them" since you are a researcher afterall and the data speaks for itself according to you.
looks and room setup that is a completely different story. 45 degrees is a problem in a couple of my rooms and I would have to build better looking speakers to suit the decor in others.
Patrick Bateman said:
Thats cool, you are the first to post that the PT sounds like a horn, I have been waiting for one of many, many econo waveguide owners to say that. I will find out for myself but its nice to read all views that I take with a grain of salt because I do not know how objective anyone is. I will still like to learn what mesurement shows the "horn sound". Distortion?
btw, I will never get to the point that anything is better left to the pros...from house building (Yep built my new house @ cost plus some $$$ to a friend who is a builder) to HT rooms to full home automation. I can do it much, much cheaper and it will be just as good in my opinion. Pros will spend years perfecting things, learning, documenting and posting their findings online. All the information can be soaked up by someone like me in a fraction of the time. The internet just allows me to use all the years of experience in a short amount of time.
Im from the open source community software development community, code like Python is entirely free, grass roots so if anyone actually believed "Pros" do things better then nothing would be created any more, nothing modified and improved. You would be amazed what is written in something like Python but that is OT!!
This has nothing to do with $$$ either, I spend more gambling in a year then I do on Audio so I have no concerns over something being expensive. Im not even in the audio hobby for critical listening.....my 2 channel is my Ipod/Ipod docking station or headphones 😀
There is just an incredible feeling that we can accomplish something at a fraction of the cost (hobby time is free) and it performs as good as great designs and better then most standard commercial designs. This does not even include the fact that the finish product that we create by ourselves gives us a huge sense of accomplishment...you do not get that when you simply buy speakers.
Everyone has their own goals and requirements. I respect others simply want to buy now at some point Im sure I will move back to that route and start another hobby but until then Im buying parts and learning.
Everyone has to also remember the Econo-waveguide project is freaking CHEAP......even if it sounds half decent its a HUGE success. The project and the designs where never ever made to compete with Geddes actually so all this defensiveness is kind of funny.
I must say that the OS wave guide has very respectable sound qualities regardless of what hole might exist. I just wish I had a chance to listen to the Summas. Unfortunately, it probably won't happen soon. Having had some time listening to other commercial horns of the spherical profile as well, it seems one needs to be aware what sonic qualities result from the electronics portion as well. There is no way to just judge the performance of the horn/waveguide on it's own without knowledge of the electrinics performance and interface.
FrankWW said:
Cited from that:
"A THD distortion curve will not reveal this effect,
nor will a frequency response graph. A careful look
at the impulse response might yield the best insight,
however this has not been quantified. Methods for
measuring the nonlinear effects of our subjective
perception are currently under investigation."
What I understand from that is: Mr. Geddes obscures once again the fact that the impulse response and frequency response graph are only different pictures of the same thing. They can be calculated (!) one into the other. Your home equipment does that on a daily basis.
The methodology that has been deployed here was not specific to HOM. There was no differential analysis whether or not the measurement addresses what it should. Is it nessecary to have group delay and amplitude irregularities both together, and if must it be minimum phase or reflection wise?
In the end, even IF one believes (!) in what Gedlee (incorporation?) presented here as a (non) scientific paper, the conclusion is that ripples of +/- 2dB are no issue:
"Figure 3 – Ratings versus playback level for +2 dB linear distortion with delay as a parameter. These data
are not significant."
At least with modern designs as EV HR90, HP940 and JBL 2352 ripples of 2dB magnitude are avoided. Most recent designs as JBL PTW and 18s XT1086 are much better.
Look at the picture as a whole! Was does GedLee LLC tell You if not to buy their systems, as all others are faulted? I respect his highly appreciated solution of horn equation. Good work, really! That does not mean that I give up my open mind. remember Shockley, the inventor of the transistor. As far as I know he didn't see a penny for it. Sh* happens!
so long
xpert> do you accept that horns do *something* that most people find offensive, aka, horn honk? And if so in what measurements would you expect it to show up? I think it's only fair to offer a solution rather than simply sit back and criticise another's data-even if incomplete.
ZilchLab said:
I don't insult your customers for buying your products, I would find that too unprofessional to resort to.
ZilchLab said:
I would not deny this, I am only saying that there is no evidence (yet) that a non-axisymmetric device will be an improvement in the "total sense" of the system design. There are lots of problems with this approach, like the woofer IS axi-symmetric.
ZilchLab said:
Well actually there is. If the source is NOT axisymmetric then there is no ideal (by that I mean analytical solution) to the waveguide problem as there is with the OS contour. This "suggests" that compromises must be made to yield a design. ALL devices that I have seen attempt this are flawed. I may have found a way to do it with a minimum of flaws. Thats TBD at this point.
But one fact is very clear. The OS contour gets rave reviews by ALL who hear it. I'm not about to throw out that design because of some hypothetical argument that non-axisymmetric is better.
Patrick Bateman said:
Hi,
slightly provocative, no? I haven't examined commercial products cause their price tag. But I used some CDs in my own designs:
EV HR90, EV HP940, JBL 2352, JBL 2360, RCF H100, 18Sound XT1086
with many drivers. What I know for sure is that with such devices a temporal degradation of hearing is very likely to occure. Not only the test tones are far more annoying due to directivity but also level go up cause the clean sound all in all. Don't all You guys own a simple 30$$ level meter?
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