It's a waveguide. Not biradial. The compression driver (Jbl 2435HPL) is snoutless. I was also surprised to find the old Altec driver to outperform the modern JBL driver in a modern JBL top of the line horn.
The same JBL driver in a BRH60 (BIG community 60 degree radial) requires very little padding to run nearly full range.
With eq the JBL 2435HPL driver sound good - problem is my mid bass is 108 db sensitive and the JBL cineama horn/jbl driver needs over 9 db of padding in the midrange for good response. The Altec 288G (the biggest baddest alnico 288 ever) need no eq. Maybe it's the massive motor strength of the Altec?
The same horn as used in the 4722 (and other larger Cinema speakers) The horn is the JBL 2384
4722_4722N Products | JBL Professional
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I'm really attracted to your midbass horn
Is this something you can purchase or did you build it? It looks like the former since I can see screw holes.
Any measurements of it with the Fane?
They are a pair of fiberglass Emilar EH153 bifurcated horns designed to be used with the Emilar EC600 6" compression driver in free space. I used to use them with that driver in half space where they worked well to 150 hz. A local fellow heard them and bought them from me years ago and never got around to using them (they are big) so I bought them back and decided to find a more suitable driver to use with them other than the compression driver. (I was using 15 and 12" drivers in front horns and was never really satisfied with the low midrange - Altec, EV, TAD, B&C, ect.. ) The B&C 8PE21 ended up being a great match and works well down to 100 cycles. I tried the Fane Studio 8M and found it wasn't as good as the B&C. Than I found the Sudio 10M - I will post some measurements for this in the near future. The B&C is a great driver in this horn and 10M is spooky good and better
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Reciprocating flare - except the EH153 uses a slower flare rate in the first section - "All horns are pressure controlling devices..." "The reciprocating flare horn is one which the rate of expansion of the horn remains constant, but the direction in which it expands changes from one plane to another for purposes of contouring the pressure fronts within the horn. Reference to Fig. 3-19 will indicate that the riciprocating horn firsts expands rapidly in the vertical direction with practically no expansion in the horizontal direction. A cut taken across this first horn section would show it to be a fairly well elongated rectangle oriented vertically. The sound pressure traveling down a channel of this type cross-section finds it relatively easy to to expand in the vertical direction, for the walls flare away in that direction. In trying to expand in the horizontal direction, however, the sound pressure meets the side walls of the horn, which restrict the wave from expanding, and consequently the sound pressure finds itself building up at these side walls rather than being allowed to freely expand. We might therefore say that looking into this rectangular section of the horn, there are high pressures against the unflared vertical walls and low pressure against the flared horizontal walls of the horn"
"Now, any one cross-section of a horn may be considered to be the "throat" area of the horn section in front of it: that is, one section feeds the next, and so forth. Thus we may look upon one horn section as the "driver" for the next section, with the very important attribute that if it is a driver that is pushing greater sound pressure against the side walls than against the top and bottom walls. If, at some discrete point along the horn, we change the direction of the flares so there is little expansion into the vertical direction and more into the horizontal direction, we have in effect a new horn with a flared directional advantage for horizontal dispersion, energized by a "driver" with already existing high sound pressure against the vertical walls anxious to be relieved into the horizontal direction. The overall effect of this reversal of the flare direction and differential pressures at the throat of the reversed section contributes to exceptionally wide horizontal dispersion"
"In the design of the horn, care is taken to so proportion the horn expansion that the final mouth of the horn is large compared with the wavelength of the frequency to be radiated. By this precaution, minimum diffraction of energy into the vertical plane takes place; it is all concentrated into the horizontal plane. In consequence of the energy being restricted from radiating into the vertical direction in free space and being concentrated in the horizontal plane, the overall efficiency of the horn is increased" etc
HI-FI Loudspeakers and Enclosures by Abraham B. Cohen, copyright 1956 John F. Rider Publisher, Inc. New York
- "All horns are pressure controlling devices..." "The reciprocating flare horn is one which the rate of expansion of the horn remains constant, but the direction in which it expands changes from one plane to another for purposes of contouring the pressure fronts within the horn. Reference to Fig. 3-19 will indicate that the riciprocating horn firsts expands rapidly in the vertical direction with practically no expansion in the horizontal direction. A cut taken across this first horn section would show it to be a fairly well elongated rectangle oriented vertically. The sound pressure traveling down a channel of this type cross-section finds it relatively easy to to expand in the vertical direction, for the walls flare away in that direction. In trying to expand in the horizontal direction, however, the sound pressure meets the side walls of the horn, which restrict the wave from expanding, and consequently the sound pressure finds itself building up at these side walls rather than being allowed to freely expand. We might therefore say that looking into this rectangular section of the horn, there are high pressures against the unflared vertical walls and low pressure against the flared horizontal walls of the horn""Now, any one cross-section of a horn may be considered to be the "throat" area of the horn section in front of it: that is, one section feeds the next, and so forth. Thus we may look upon one horn section as the "driver" for the next section, with the very important attribute that if it is a driver that is pushing greater sound pressure against the side walls than against the top and bottom walls. If, at some discrete point along the horn, we change the direction of the flares so there is little expansion into the vertical direction and more into the horizontal direction, we have in effect a new horn with a flared directional advantage for horizontal dispersion, energized by a "driver" with already existing high sound pressure against the vertical walls anxious to be relieved into the horizontal direction. The overall effect of this reversal of the flare direction and differential pressures at the throat of the reversed section contributes to exceptionally wide horizontal dispersion"
"In the design of the horn, care is taken to so proportion the horn expansion that the final mouth of the horn is large compared with the wavelength of the frequency to be radiated. By this precaution, minimum diffraction of energy into the vertical plane takes place; it is all concentrated into the horizontal plane. In consequence of the energy being restricted from radiating into the vertical direction in free space and being concentrated in the horizontal plane, the overall efficiency of the horn is increased" etc
HI-FI Loudspeakers and Enclosures by Abraham B. Cohen, copyright 1956 John F. Rider Publisher, Inc. New York
Thanks POOH! What is the length of the EH153?
I have been thinking about the Klipsch K-402 controlled directivity horn above a straight midbass horn. I know it's not really your thing; the K-402 used all the way up will require EQ to boost up the treble with whatever 1.5/2" driver, resulting in loss of sensitivity. Still sensitive enough for my use. Someone else here created a thread and was doing the same thing, though he hasn't updated it in a while. His requirements were more stringent than mine, since I have a decent amount of space to work with.
I have been thinking about the Klipsch K-402 controlled directivity horn above a straight midbass horn. I know it's not really your thing; the K-402 used all the way up will require EQ to boost up the treble with whatever 1.5/2" driver, resulting in loss of sensitivity. Still sensitive enough for my use. Someone else here created a thread and was doing the same thing, though he hasn't updated it in a while. His requirements were more stringent than mine, since I have a decent amount of space to work with.
46" throat to mouth.
I'm not sure what you think my thing is but maybe you do
I don't like to pad down anything from 150 cycles up. Down below that the room starts to do it's thing and that is done electronically if necessary. I like it when the only compression I get is in the recording. When you have full range wide open dynamics the small inner details in the music stay intact. Listening to a system compromised in real dynamics (most i reckon) than returning to wide open system (all the way down to the bottom octave and including the top octave) you realize what it missing. Many layers of tone, colors, inner brightness, darkness, softness sharpness, 3D in sound - like going from a NTSC tube TV into an IMAX theater. Compressed systems don't have realistic contrasts to me. Lack emotion.
I'm not sure what you think my thing is but maybe you do
I don't like to pad down anything from 150 cycles up. Down below that the room starts to do it's thing and that is done electronically if necessary. I like it when the only compression I get is in the recording. When you have full range wide open dynamics the small inner details in the music stay intact. Listening to a system compromised in real dynamics (most i reckon) than returning to wide open system (all the way down to the bottom octave and including the top octave) you realize what it missing. Many layers of tone, colors, inner brightness, darkness, softness sharpness, 3D in sound - like going from a NTSC tube TV into an IMAX theater. Compressed systems don't have realistic contrasts to me. Lack emotion.
My mistake, I thought you wrote in a post somewhere that you didn't like using a midrange horn all the way to 20 KHz, since you'd need to boost EQ past the compression driver's natural roll off.
Right, I use a treble horn. Padding down a midrange horn is not a wide open system. I see some people use compression drivers and pad them down to under 100 db sensitivity, sometimes less. In my analogy of the NTSC tube TV compared to IMAX theater, those systems might be 480p. IMAX is more vivid and real, so padding a midrange horn down is big step back
How much sensitivity loss do you think there is running something like a TD-4001 (TD-4002 is what the Klipsch guys use with the K-402) straight up from 600 Hz on a K-402 after EQ'ing up that 8 KHz droop? It's an interesting point you bring up, I don't think anyone has measured this loss in sensitivity on the Klipsch forum. I'm no expert, I imagine you'd be able to blow your hearing out with a 0.5-1 watt amp?
I have had 4002 and have 4001 - I am not into "blowing my hearing out" I listen at low to low-mid levels 99 percent of the time. What I am describing is about the realism of the sound not high levels.
The Klipsch 402 appears to be a great horn. I do not have them. Similar in size and purpose I have the Keele "great white whale" HR9040 EV. I think most people that use the K402 horn use it with Belle style folded horn (not too good ime) that fails to provide clean enough wide range response to match the K-402. Folded horns are pretty bad above 250 cycles. The K402 will probably be a better mate to the TAD drivers than the typical fad round horns. The large format TAD drivers to me tend to be a bit too much in the top end and can sound "unreal" at first listen but over time become truly unreal. Padding the midrange isn't the whole reason I prefer a real treble horn. Small format drivers have better power response and less breakup. The IM distortion is lower as a system and the midrange has lower grit (distortion) due to the fact you are low passing the top end.
The loss in sensitivity comes from the amount of pad eq and insertion loss of the components to achieve that. Real easy to determine.
The Klipsch 402 appears to be a great horn. I do not have them. Similar in size and purpose I have the Keele "great white whale" HR9040 EV. I think most people that use the K402 horn use it with Belle style folded horn (not too good ime) that fails to provide clean enough wide range response to match the K-402. Folded horns are pretty bad above 250 cycles. The K402 will probably be a better mate to the TAD drivers than the typical fad round horns. The large format TAD drivers to me tend to be a bit too much in the top end and can sound "unreal" at first listen but over time become truly unreal. Padding the midrange isn't the whole reason I prefer a real treble horn. Small format drivers have better power response and less breakup. The IM distortion is lower as a system and the midrange has lower grit (distortion) due to the fact you are low passing the top end.
The loss in sensitivity comes from the amount of pad eq and insertion loss of the components to achieve that. Real easy to determine.
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Good info, thanks. Not sure if you think I'm riling you up, I really didn't mean the blow your hearing out as anything against you. I was thinking of it purely in terms of sensitivity and what that translates to with amp power. I value the sensitivity and wouldn't think about using a compression driver without a horn
At the same time I highly value the directivity control and simplicity of not worrying/thinking about integrating a treble horn to match the upper limit pattern of the large midrange horn. I agree that a folded horn operated that high is not my thing either; I've never heard one that sounded realistic with cello and acoustic bass. Which is why I was looking into straight midbass horns.
I find I'd rather integrate a horn tweeter to a horn midrange than say try and integrate a direct radiator and a horn. Just my experience
If you can find mid to make it to 7-8 k in the mid horn with low compromise than it becomes easier. Lower than that it gets a little more difficult but perfectly doable. Big mid horns tend to be tall vertically so it's often best to put the treble horn between the mid and bass horn.
Look at the radiation of the mid and treble horns at the target crossover frequency and try and match the polar response. Ideally you want very tight vertical radiation and matched radiation between the mid horn horizontally.
I have been using the Faital 1" line array waveguide horn for treble because of it's matched horizontal radiation to the JBL 2384 at the crossover frequencies, the very narrow/tight vertical radiation (the treble horn is between the mid and bass horn) and it's very high output in the top octave with the Celestion CDX1730. No problem mating it here with the Altec 288g/JBL 2384
FaitalPRO | HF Horns | WG101
If you can find mid to make it to 7-8 k in the mid horn with low compromise than it becomes easier. Lower than that it gets a little more difficult but perfectly doable. Big mid horns tend to be tall vertically so it's often best to put the treble horn between the mid and bass horn.
Look at the radiation of the mid and treble horns at the target crossover frequency and try and match the polar response. Ideally you want very tight vertical radiation and matched radiation between the mid horn horizontally.
I have been using the Faital 1" line array waveguide horn for treble because of it's matched horizontal radiation to the JBL 2384 at the crossover frequencies, the very narrow/tight vertical radiation (the treble horn is between the mid and bass horn) and it's very high output in the top octave with the Celestion CDX1730. No problem mating it here with the Altec 288g/JBL 2384
FaitalPRO | HF Horns | WG101
SYSTEM STANDS AT;
low bass - 40 cycles down - 1/8th space mono front bass horn 18 inch, rear corner dual 18 mono
bass - six 15 inch bass drivers 40-80 cycles with eight 8 inch floor loaded couplers- stereo
upper bass low midrange - fane studio 10m in front horn 80-650 cycles
upper midrange treble - altec 288 8g in jbl 2384 cinema horns 650 - 8k
high treble - celestion cdx1730 in faital waveguide wg101
low bass - 40 cycles down - 1/8th space mono front bass horn 18 inch, rear corner dual 18 mono
bass - six 15 inch bass drivers 40-80 cycles with eight 8 inch floor loaded couplers- stereo
upper bass low midrange - fane studio 10m in front horn 80-650 cycles
upper midrange treble - altec 288 8g in jbl 2384 cinema horns 650 - 8k
high treble - celestion cdx1730 in faital waveguide wg101
Corrected bass-
SYSTEM STANDS AT;
low bass - 40 cycles down - 1/8th space mono front bass horn 18 inch, rear corner dual 18 mono
bass - six 15 inch bass drivers per channel 40-80 cycles with four 8 inch per channel floor loaded couplers- stereo
upper bass low midrange - fane studio 10m in front horn 80-650 cycles
upper midrange treble - altec 288 8g in jbl 2384 cinema horns 650 - 8k
high treble - celestion cdx1730 in faital waveguide wg101
SYSTEM STANDS AT;
low bass - 40 cycles down - 1/8th space mono front bass horn 18 inch, rear corner dual 18 mono
bass - six 15 inch bass drivers per channel 40-80 cycles with four 8 inch per channel floor loaded couplers- stereo
upper bass low midrange - fane studio 10m in front horn 80-650 cycles
upper midrange treble - altec 288 8g in jbl 2384 cinema horns 650 - 8k
high treble - celestion cdx1730 in faital waveguide wg101
