Theoretically sound quality should improve when real DSD converters are being used as the continuous use of the delta-sigma signal througout the signal path is one of the main arguments for DSD.
But if the analog stages are weak, what I don't know for the DV-565, you gain nothing.
For me, having a pure-digital signal path, DSD is just an annoyance bringing only disadvantages. But maybe this is exactly the intention of Sony...
But if the analog stages are weak, what I don't know for the DV-565, you gain nothing.
For me, having a pure-digital signal path, DSD is just an annoyance bringing only disadvantages. But maybe this is exactly the intention of Sony...
Dawsoo,
I have a small PCB design that can be fitted to the Pioneer Machine to convert DSD to Hi-Res PCM 96 KHz or 192 KHz (And output Raw DSD and 44.1 KHz to 192 KHz PCM). It’s been fitted to a Pioneer DV 565A - the PCB can be fitted to any machine that has "Raw" DSD signals internal such as Samsung players etc, below is a Picture of a prototype board fitted to a Samsung machine.
There's an issue with the Pioneer DV 565 and its internal PCM processing in that the PCM data is "scaled" by a fraction of a dB - this prevents Bit Accurate output, also strips LSB dithering of 24 Bit audio which is not good. I have no idea why Pioneer decided to this, maybe to prevent access to a "Bit Accurate" PCM data stream, or to prevent Digital filter overload of the DVD chipset.
This "fraction of a dB scaling" has a surprising effect on audio quality, I suspect as it strips the LSB of dither information...
You will find that a HDCD DAC connected to this player will not decode HDCD as the output is not Bit Accurate...
I will be in Prague until March, so maybe we can meet here in Czech Rep.
John
I have a small PCB design that can be fitted to the Pioneer Machine to convert DSD to Hi-Res PCM 96 KHz or 192 KHz (And output Raw DSD and 44.1 KHz to 192 KHz PCM). It’s been fitted to a Pioneer DV 565A - the PCB can be fitted to any machine that has "Raw" DSD signals internal such as Samsung players etc, below is a Picture of a prototype board fitted to a Samsung machine.
There's an issue with the Pioneer DV 565 and its internal PCM processing in that the PCM data is "scaled" by a fraction of a dB - this prevents Bit Accurate output, also strips LSB dithering of 24 Bit audio which is not good. I have no idea why Pioneer decided to this, maybe to prevent access to a "Bit Accurate" PCM data stream, or to prevent Digital filter overload of the DVD chipset.
This "fraction of a dB scaling" has a surprising effect on audio quality, I suspect as it strips the LSB of dither information...
You will find that a HDCD DAC connected to this player will not decode HDCD as the output is not Bit Accurate...
I will be in Prague until March, so maybe we can meet here in Czech Rep.
John
Attachments
Sorry Dawsoo,
A slight error in my post above, DSD converted to Hi-Res PCM 88.2 KHz or 176.4 KHz of course....
John
A slight error in my post above, DSD converted to Hi-Res PCM 88.2 KHz or 176.4 KHz of course....
John
Hi John,
Nice to hear from you again. That's a very interesting board.
That board is interesting. When are you coming back to HKG so we can get together to audition your prototypes? I have just bought Cary CD306 SACD player, which has a 786Khz upsampled internal DAC. The beauty of Cary is its ability to upsample external 44.1K-192Khz PCM audio to 768Khz. Also it plays DSD natively. It would be a good platform to do some A/B testing.
Please email me pkuniverse@topet-intl.com.
Patrick
Nice to hear from you again. That's a very interesting board.
That board is interesting. When are you coming back to HKG so we can get together to audition your prototypes? I have just bought Cary CD306 SACD player, which has a 786Khz upsampled internal DAC. The beauty of Cary is its ability to upsample external 44.1K-192Khz PCM audio to 768Khz. Also it plays DSD natively. It would be a good platform to do some A/B testing.
Please email me pkuniverse@topet-intl.com.
Patrick
Hi John,
Would be interesting to know if your DAC can upsample CD to DSD and output via balanced analog. It sounds like it is going to be like the Sony Sonoma card used in EMMS transport. The new DCS P8i and Wadia 9 series DAC can all upsample to CD to DSD. With some clever FPGA programming and some decent analog circuits - I am sure this is going to be a killer app.
Patrick
Would be interesting to know if your DAC can upsample CD to DSD and output via balanced analog. It sounds like it is going to be like the Sony Sonoma card used in EMMS transport. The new DCS P8i and Wadia 9 series DAC can all upsample to CD to DSD. With some clever FPGA programming and some decent analog circuits - I am sure this is going to be a killer app.
Patrick
I must clarify that I only have a very minor role in development of this design - my interest is in having available a Hi-Res digital output to feed to my forthcoming digital amplifiers - I will not be personally selling this upgrade board.
Patrick,
I will be in HK in a couple of weeks, I will Email closer to the time and perhaps we can meet over a drink or two in Wanchi....
John
Patrick,
I will be in HK in a couple of weeks, I will Email closer to the time and perhaps we can meet over a drink or two in Wanchi....
John
JohnW said:
John,
this is a very interesting board and regarding the photos this board is available on a professional basis. So please answer me some questions if you can.
The board is a Must Have. Where can I buy it and for which price?
Did it have a NPC-chip to convert DSD?
Thanks
Charly
Very interesting board, indeed.
For me it looks like a FPGA due to the arrangement of capacitors and the three supply voltages. Possibly a Spartan3-200? 😉
Also there's no NPC with 100 pins (provided I've counted correctly).
Holger
For me it looks like a FPGA due to the arrangement of capacitors and the three supply voltages. Possibly a Spartan3-200? 😉
Also there's no NPC with 100 pins (provided I've counted correctly).
Holger
676A digital out
I was wanting to play SACDs, best possible quality, into a Meridian G91 (G91 can't play SACD layer!). And also to compare it with a player that costs one fortieth of the G91! Analog SACD into the G91 from the 676A was not as good as playing the CD layer on the G91!
I looked at Dr Oerlich's board and initially thought getting the cable in would be too difficult. But I went ahead anyway. I used an Antex 25w iron, pecil tip and 0.4 silver solder. Making the board and soldering the SMD was easy (but not for those who have never soldered before - please practice first!). A rock-steady, hand, magnifier and courage are essential!
Soldering the cable
I had to use the colour pics off the WEB site to see exactly where each wire was to go. It gets easier as you go. Connection 3 was the most difficult to work out.
If I was doing this again:
Check if the point for the wire is in fact a hole right through the board. If so, then remove the solder in the hole, poke the wire through the hole, and solder. Do not pre-tin the wire - it can make it too thick to go through the hole. This is where silver-solder helps - it flows very well on copper.
The heatsink on the 7805 is essential - 12v is dropping to 5v.
I soldered a pin to one leg of the 7805 - this makes it easier to solder the wire here - space is tight.
Anyway, it worked first time. Brilliant! I took the digital feed off the add-in board to a new phono connector added to the back of the Pioneer.
Unexpected benefits
SACD digital out was an improvement on analogue (twice as good) but still not as good as the G91 playing the CD layer - much better imaging (presence) on the G91 (say twice as good).
Playing the SACD layer on the Pioneer reveals a little more detail (or sometimes an entirely different recording ?! eg Barb Junger, Elvis Songs).
I can now listen to SACD-only disks!
The surprise was DVD-Audio 24/48K and 24/96. Some of these sound compressed on the G91 but opened out through the Pioneer. Extraordinary! Lovely brass sound - eg EMI Handel Royal Fireworks.
Further improvements
Can anything else be done to improve the quality of the dgital-out feed ?
I have changed the clock (Trichord clock 4). The power supply is is probably OK as is - changing to superfast diodes doesn't seem to have done much. I have also upgraded a few caps (to Blackgate and Oscons) but this probably affects only analogue out. More investigation required!
I was wanting to play SACDs, best possible quality, into a Meridian G91 (G91 can't play SACD layer!). And also to compare it with a player that costs one fortieth of the G91! Analog SACD into the G91 from the 676A was not as good as playing the CD layer on the G91!
I looked at Dr Oerlich's board and initially thought getting the cable in would be too difficult. But I went ahead anyway. I used an Antex 25w iron, pecil tip and 0.4 silver solder. Making the board and soldering the SMD was easy (but not for those who have never soldered before - please practice first!). A rock-steady, hand, magnifier and courage are essential!
Soldering the cable
I had to use the colour pics off the WEB site to see exactly where each wire was to go. It gets easier as you go. Connection 3 was the most difficult to work out.
If I was doing this again:
Check if the point for the wire is in fact a hole right through the board. If so, then remove the solder in the hole, poke the wire through the hole, and solder. Do not pre-tin the wire - it can make it too thick to go through the hole. This is where silver-solder helps - it flows very well on copper.
The heatsink on the 7805 is essential - 12v is dropping to 5v.
I soldered a pin to one leg of the 7805 - this makes it easier to solder the wire here - space is tight.
Anyway, it worked first time. Brilliant! I took the digital feed off the add-in board to a new phono connector added to the back of the Pioneer.
Unexpected benefits
SACD digital out was an improvement on analogue (twice as good) but still not as good as the G91 playing the CD layer - much better imaging (presence) on the G91 (say twice as good).
Playing the SACD layer on the Pioneer reveals a little more detail (or sometimes an entirely different recording ?! eg Barb Junger, Elvis Songs).
I can now listen to SACD-only disks!
The surprise was DVD-Audio 24/48K and 24/96. Some of these sound compressed on the G91 but opened out through the Pioneer. Extraordinary! Lovely brass sound - eg EMI Handel Royal Fireworks.
Further improvements
Can anything else be done to improve the quality of the dgital-out feed ?
I have changed the clock (Trichord clock 4). The power supply is is probably OK as is - changing to superfast diodes doesn't seem to have done much. I have also upgraded a few caps (to Blackgate and Oscons) but this probably affects only analogue out. More investigation required!
Btw, if it can be useful, Pioneer DV-588A converts DSD to PCM. There are PCM1742KE DACs in there.
This is really good news!DragonMaster said:
So all Users of DV-588A also could use the Kit!!!
Thanks Charly
Pioneer AX-10
hi
this is an exemplary dvd in video terms, just wonder if it is possible to push the audio side further - http://www.audioreview.com/cat/home-video/dvd-players/pioneer/PRD_125629_1587crx.aspx
this is a universal player
Nice work man !
Jeff in HK
hi
this is an exemplary dvd in video terms, just wonder if it is possible to push the audio side further - http://www.audioreview.com/cat/home-video/dvd-players/pioneer/PRD_125629_1587crx.aspx
this is a universal player
Nice work man !
Jeff in HK
It's the same player in a different box. Maybe the PSU or transport is different too but they have the same firmware.
Thanks
hwb and DragonMaster.
Do you know if the dsd to pcm conversion is done by the NPC SM5819?
I'm asking that because I tried several times to get the schematics at getmanual.com but they have the following problem 'We temporarily does not accept payments.'
Or does anyone have a feedback from the sound of the DV-588 (or DV-585) in DSD mode with the interface?
hwb and DragonMaster.
Do you know if the dsd to pcm conversion is done by the NPC SM5819?
I'm asking that because I tried several times to get the schematics at getmanual.com but they have the following problem 'We temporarily does not accept payments.'
Or does anyone have a feedback from the sound of the DV-588 (or DV-585) in DSD mode with the interface?
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