Re: Re: Jitter
Reclocking does not cause ground bounce. Grounding errors do. It can be corrected.
fmak said:
Reclocking does not cause ground bounce. Grounding errors do. It can be corrected.
DV 696-AV
Hi,
today I equipped a new DV 696-AV with the kit. The DV 696-AV is the sucessor of the 585-A and has HDMI output.
The soldering points for the ribbon cable are at slightly different locations but this player works like charm 🙂)
I put the photos of the ribbon wire soldering on my webpage http://freerider.dyndns.org
The DV 696-AV is the product for Europe. Did anyone know its counterpart in the US?
Charly
Hi,
today I equipped a new DV 696-AV with the kit. The DV 696-AV is the sucessor of the 585-A and has HDMI output.
The soldering points for the ribbon cable are at slightly different locations but this player works like charm 🙂)
I put the photos of the ribbon wire soldering on my webpage http://freerider.dyndns.org
The DV 696-AV is the product for Europe. Did anyone know its counterpart in the US?
Charly
Would anyone be willing to convert an SACD to a DVD-/+R with the WAV files of each track on? I'll happily pay a fee for the service. The idea of spending about £350 or so on a device to convert the discs when I only want one converted doesn't appeal =P
kit2 - power supply and sound quality
kit 1 - replaced 7805 with audiocom 5v super regulator - no differece
kit 2 (running with XO3, sep psu to XO3, and using re-clocking on XO3 board - very beneficial) - replaced 7805 with LT1086CT5 (pin out is different!) - makes a big difference; more "air" around sounds and better bass response; very noticeable on simple SACD music (as compared to a Meridian G91 playing the CD layer). (also used low-esr Panasonic caps on Kit2 board).
Interestingly, Kit 2 is not as good for complex music/sounds - sounds muddled compared to simple sounds. An example, Rebecca Pidgeon/Spanish Harlem/Chesky - sounds stunning, but when the piano comes in it's muddled. On a Linn SC SACD player the piano sound is broad and natural. (Linn also has a "feature" to its sound - great lightness/delicacy with some music; and sometimes over-emphasised treble)
OK, maybe it's too much to hope that a 100 euro player will ever compete with a Linn - but we are very, very close! Has anyone tried a separate power supply to Kit 2 ?
(I changed caps and rectifiers on Pioneer to low-esr and high speed but maybe it changed nothing.)
kit 1 - replaced 7805 with audiocom 5v super regulator - no differece
kit 2 (running with XO3, sep psu to XO3, and using re-clocking on XO3 board - very beneficial) - replaced 7805 with LT1086CT5 (pin out is different!) - makes a big difference; more "air" around sounds and better bass response; very noticeable on simple SACD music (as compared to a Meridian G91 playing the CD layer). (also used low-esr Panasonic caps on Kit2 board).
Interestingly, Kit 2 is not as good for complex music/sounds - sounds muddled compared to simple sounds. An example, Rebecca Pidgeon/Spanish Harlem/Chesky - sounds stunning, but when the piano comes in it's muddled. On a Linn SC SACD player the piano sound is broad and natural. (Linn also has a "feature" to its sound - great lightness/delicacy with some music; and sometimes over-emphasised treble)
OK, maybe it's too much to hope that a 100 euro player will ever compete with a Linn - but we are very, very close! Has anyone tried a separate power supply to Kit 2 ?
(I changed caps and rectifiers on Pioneer to low-esr and high speed but maybe it changed nothing.)
Re: kit2 - power supply and sound quality
in what configuration did you compare v2 Kit to V1 kit? V1 did not have the SRC active on nomal playback (only for 192k DVD-A) Did you compare standard kit to V2 Kit with SRC operational and XO3 included?
Modder,modder said:
in what configuration did you compare v2 Kit to V1 kit? V1 did not have the SRC active on nomal playback (only for 192k DVD-A) Did you compare standard kit to V2 Kit with SRC operational and XO3 included?
SRC ?
My mind is blank on what SRC means at the moment! But ....
Comparing sound:
Kit 1 (SACD out as 88.2) and also analog out (much modified with Blackgates and trichord clock 4) - sounded much the same into upsampling (192KHz) G91 (and much inferior to CD on G91 ie. flat and 2-dimensional).
Kit 2 (SACD and CD out as 96KHz) with XO3 and reclock on XO3, sep. power supply -
1. some CDs (eg Brothers in Arms, Dire Straits) sounds just like playing CD in G91.
2. G91 has major problem with congestion on groups singing eg. Handel/St Cecilia SACD which Pioneer Kit2 reduces! Also Pioneer has a very slight edge in rhythm. (Linn SC rhythm is much better but depends on waht is playing). So, nothing is perfect!
3. Playing SACD on Pioneer is now better than playing CD layer on G91 because Pioneer finds more information. But sometimes CD layer can sound just more musical on G91! Linn SC can be magical with some SACDs but requires very careful matching of cables etc etc etc!
Changing to 1086CT5 voltage reg was wothwhile. Confirmed this more than once now.
The CT5 has massive ripple rejection - 76dB!
Hope this is useful!
My mind is blank on what SRC means at the moment! But ....
Comparing sound:
Kit 1 (SACD out as 88.2) and also analog out (much modified with Blackgates and trichord clock 4) - sounded much the same into upsampling (192KHz) G91 (and much inferior to CD on G91 ie. flat and 2-dimensional).
Kit 2 (SACD and CD out as 96KHz) with XO3 and reclock on XO3, sep. power supply -
1. some CDs (eg Brothers in Arms, Dire Straits) sounds just like playing CD in G91.
2. G91 has major problem with congestion on groups singing eg. Handel/St Cecilia SACD which Pioneer Kit2 reduces! Also Pioneer has a very slight edge in rhythm. (Linn SC rhythm is much better but depends on waht is playing). So, nothing is perfect!
3. Playing SACD on Pioneer is now better than playing CD layer on G91 because Pioneer finds more information. But sometimes CD layer can sound just more musical on G91! Linn SC can be magical with some SACDs but requires very careful matching of cables etc etc etc!
Changing to 1086CT5 voltage reg was wothwhile. Confirmed this more than once now.
The CT5 has massive ripple rejection - 76dB!
Hope this is useful!
complex music
Just to confirm I am comparing 2 types of music on Pioneer 575A with kit 2 installed using XO3 and XO3 reclocking with sep power supply. Simpler music is excellent. Complex music not as good. Eg. Mahler Symph 4.Tilson Thomas CD layer is much rounder/fuller/musical on G91 than the SACD layer on Pioneer.
Belkin PF30/40/60 products - I am trying out a PF40. The theory is that this should benefit the Pioneer particularly (because it has an inferior power supply).
Just to confirm I am comparing 2 types of music on Pioneer 575A with kit 2 installed using XO3 and XO3 reclocking with sep power supply. Simpler music is excellent. Complex music not as good. Eg. Mahler Symph 4.Tilson Thomas CD layer is much rounder/fuller/musical on G91 than the SACD layer on Pioneer.
Belkin PF30/40/60 products - I am trying out a PF40. The theory is that this should benefit the Pioneer particularly (because it has an inferior power supply).
Re: complex music
Hi Modder
Can you give me some info on the separate power supply & the X03 reclocking ? I'm determining if same needs to be done on an AX-10 (1st Flagship DVD-A player few years back)
thanks
Hi Modder
Can you give me some info on the separate power supply & the X03 reclocking ? I'm determining if same needs to be done on an AX-10 (1st Flagship DVD-A player few years back)
thanks
modder said:
Hi
Very interesting thread you have here!
I wonder whether such a modification would also work in an av preamp or in an av receiver?
Do they usually use dsd or pcm?
I know preamps with 8 channel digital output exist, but I can't pay them.
deathlord
Very interesting thread you have here!
I wonder whether such a modification would also work in an av preamp or in an av receiver?
Do they usually use dsd or pcm?
I know preamps with 8 channel digital output exist, but I can't pay them.
deathlord
tentlabs
Re Pioneer 676A or equivalent.
I modified mine with Kit2 (and Kit1 before that). Kit2 has full XO3 clock mod on it. XO3 clock board has the TentLabs CHOKE power supply driving it. XO3 also has re-clock "SPDIF out" option that I found very beneficial. The main board has a Trichord 4 clock driven by its own simple sep psu. Kit2 has a Linear Tech voltage regulator and Panasonic ZA caps. (I've found these caps to be particularly useful in reducing noise (compared to Sanyo OSCONs) in a phono preamp so used them here too - since I had some spare!).
Important point.
I've been doing mods for 20 years and it's obvious to me that the TentLabs designs are just superior to anything I've bought before. Take the XO3 power supply - it's a choke design. Take the XO3 re-clock feature - the difference can be clearly heard.
And Kit2 is relatively simple and "just" ingenious!
I've upgraded the Pioneer psu and the caps around the DAC and output.
So ....... I can make a full set of comparisons!
I listened to some Diana Krall the other day on the Pioneer (SACD digital out to G91), and CD layer on the G91 (no upsampling). No difference! But use upsampling on the G91 and the G91 is far better (3D-like "presence" imaging) - even though it's playing the CD layer! Now configure the G91 for Meridian speakers (amps and upsampling in the speakers) and the sound acquires a 3D space around it and is improved even further. So a Meridian CD system is at least as good, in stereo, as an SACD system (minus a very small amount of detail).
I wonder if the Pioneer is also being let down by its PSU ? Naim sell power supplies for $$$$.cc so players must benefit from better power supplies.
I would have liked to power Kit2 from a sep psu but the TentLabs unit does not appear to have the extra 100mA required to drive Kit2. Pity.
Sep psu need to be driven off relays in the Pioneer (because of the electronic switching).
Re Pioneer 676A or equivalent.
I modified mine with Kit2 (and Kit1 before that). Kit2 has full XO3 clock mod on it. XO3 clock board has the TentLabs CHOKE power supply driving it. XO3 also has re-clock "SPDIF out" option that I found very beneficial. The main board has a Trichord 4 clock driven by its own simple sep psu. Kit2 has a Linear Tech voltage regulator and Panasonic ZA caps. (I've found these caps to be particularly useful in reducing noise (compared to Sanyo OSCONs) in a phono preamp so used them here too - since I had some spare!).
Important point.
I've been doing mods for 20 years and it's obvious to me that the TentLabs designs are just superior to anything I've bought before. Take the XO3 power supply - it's a choke design. Take the XO3 re-clock feature - the difference can be clearly heard.
And Kit2 is relatively simple and "just" ingenious!
I've upgraded the Pioneer psu and the caps around the DAC and output.
So ....... I can make a full set of comparisons!
I listened to some Diana Krall the other day on the Pioneer (SACD digital out to G91), and CD layer on the G91 (no upsampling). No difference! But use upsampling on the G91 and the G91 is far better (3D-like "presence" imaging) - even though it's playing the CD layer! Now configure the G91 for Meridian speakers (amps and upsampling in the speakers) and the sound acquires a 3D space around it and is improved even further. So a Meridian CD system is at least as good, in stereo, as an SACD system (minus a very small amount of detail).
I wonder if the Pioneer is also being let down by its PSU ? Naim sell power supplies for $$$$.cc so players must benefit from better power supplies.
I would have liked to power Kit2 from a sep psu but the TentLabs unit does not appear to have the extra 100mA required to drive Kit2. Pity.
Sep psu need to be driven off relays in the Pioneer (because of the electronic switching).
belkin PF40
With a PF40 the G91 sounds even better, while the Pioneer sound does not appear to change. To maximise the effectiveness of a mod it's important that everything else is of sufficient quality so that improvements can be heard. This is why I think the Pioneer is being let down by its power supply (is it the weakest link now?), and why Kit2 may improve with its own separate psu - but I could be wrong!
With a PF40 the G91 sounds even better, while the Pioneer sound does not appear to change. To maximise the effectiveness of a mod it's important that everything else is of sufficient quality so that improvements can be heard. This is why I think the Pioneer is being let down by its power supply (is it the weakest link now?), and why Kit2 may improve with its own separate psu - but I could be wrong!
Pioneer DV-AX10
modder
thanks for the details !
I've order the extended kit with the clock option, but since I am unfamiliar with all the parts in it as yet. I keep arguing with myself what you have done different from the shipped board.
I'm mostly using this as a digital transport, so I will focus on getting best quality digital outputs and forgo analogue outs (although the DVD-Audio out of this unit is real good)
Is SPDIF reclock not supported out of the box for kit2 so you have to roll it yourself ? I'm using the kit with the Pioneer AX10, which has a slightly better power supply (japan made), should I still consider which psu for upgrade ?
May I send you a link to the service manual on PM (file is >8MB) to get more of your opinions on this machine ? This machine is a keeper because of the transport and 480i video performance, so I want to push it further as DVD-A/SACD transport
Happy New Year !
modder
thanks for the details !
I've order the extended kit with the clock option, but since I am unfamiliar with all the parts in it as yet. I keep arguing with myself what you have done different from the shipped board.
I'm mostly using this as a digital transport, so I will focus on getting best quality digital outputs and forgo analogue outs (although the DVD-Audio out of this unit is real good)
Is SPDIF reclock not supported out of the box for kit2 so you have to roll it yourself ? I'm using the kit with the Pioneer AX10, which has a slightly better power supply (japan made), should I still consider which psu for upgrade ?
May I send you a link to the service manual on PM (file is >8MB) to get more of your opinions on this machine ? This machine is a keeper because of the transport and 480i video performance, so I want to push it further as DVD-A/SACD transport
Happy New Year !
kit2
Kit2 enables digital out for SACD (and all other audio too). Kit2 intercepts the PCM stream and re-clocks it (eg. to 96KHz). Kit2 will take an external clock, eg XO3 - this is much better than using the main-board audio clock of the 575A (because of it's simple implementation and because it's derived from the video clock). So, all this removes the jitter coming off the disk read.
XO3 has a SPDIF re-clock option - this removes even more jitter (timbre of instruments is improved). I had to add a 1K resistor, in series, to the XO3 re-clock input to get the DAC to lock on to the signal.
Kit2 enables digital out for SACD (and all other audio too). Kit2 intercepts the PCM stream and re-clocks it (eg. to 96KHz). Kit2 will take an external clock, eg XO3 - this is much better than using the main-board audio clock of the 575A (because of it's simple implementation and because it's derived from the video clock). So, all this removes the jitter coming off the disk read.
XO3 has a SPDIF re-clock option - this removes even more jitter (timbre of instruments is improved). I had to add a 1K resistor, in series, to the XO3 re-clock input to get the DAC to lock on to the signal.
re psu
upgrading the psu in anything:
1. replace whole power supply - probably impossible because it's switched mode with multiple DC voltages-out that have to be supplied.
2. upgrade components - might be useful. Also VERY dangerous (to self, and psu) if you do not understand switched-mode. (Minimum: read and understand a book on switched-mode before attempting to do anything! Do NOT touch anything with a probe etc while it is switched on unless you understand completely what it is you have in front of you).
3. provide separate psu to any added components, eg. XO3 kit - this is simplest and best to do.
upgrading the psu in anything:
1. replace whole power supply - probably impossible because it's switched mode with multiple DC voltages-out that have to be supplied.
2. upgrade components - might be useful. Also VERY dangerous (to self, and psu) if you do not understand switched-mode. (Minimum: read and understand a book on switched-mode before attempting to do anything! Do NOT touch anything with a probe etc while it is switched on unless you understand completely what it is you have in front of you).
3. provide separate psu to any added components, eg. XO3 kit - this is simplest and best to do.
send link
send link if you like but I am no expert.
An excellent design is often compromised by poor quality of components. (see history if QUAD amplifiers).
send link if you like but I am no expert.
An excellent design is often compromised by poor quality of components. (see history if QUAD amplifiers).
ftp://geoff_download:etrg985@220.246.20.59/temp/PIONEER-ax10-R2429-service.pdf
is the link to the service manual. Thanks !
is the link to the service manual. Thanks !
dit4096
Hello All,
I implemented the dit4096 way what was suggested by dieringe in post #39.
One thing to add to the schematic given there, is that you should pull pins 26&27 to GND (these're user data and validity bits). This was necessary to work with my emu 1820m soundcard.
Otherwise, that works fine with my sacds 🙂 Thanks for it!
igy137
Hello All,
I implemented the dit4096 way what was suggested by dieringe in post #39.
One thing to add to the schematic given there, is that you should pull pins 26&27 to GND (these're user data and validity bits). This was necessary to work with my emu 1820m soundcard.
Otherwise, that works fine with my sacds 🙂 Thanks for it!
igy137
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