great thanks! Makes sense, I wondered about the levels from 3000 and up since I knew I was getting some help from the tweeter blended in with the mid-woofer in this critical mid-band. That is why I like the sound combination; the piano does sound better with this latest tweeter configuration. I used the online calculator for -6 dB at around 16 Khz based on the impedance curve at that point. I was assuming -7 dB at about 15 K and then -13 at about 7500 Hz but the math didn't support what I was hearing. I need to come into this century like the rest of you guys with sims and measurements. Your "pink" curve supports my listening tests almost exactly what I was hoping for and thought I was achieving! So, 4 to 5 dB per octave drop off it looks like from about 8000 and down instead of text book 6 dB. One reason I chose this tweeter was the rise above 10K, where my hearing needs the "boost" You younger guys would need a much flatter tweeter. This top octave rise does not sound like a nasty break-up however; for my old ears, it provides just enough "sparkle" and "zing" as long as I use higher quality capacitors. This tweeter now sounds like a $100 unit instead of a $30 unit. Same thing with the SB13's; I'm really looking forward to the better inductors. Maybe by the time I get the final box ready; I'll have my measurement mic back. Thanks again Celef!
Can anyone explain why the drop off is only about 4 to 5 dB per octave? Is it because of the tweeter impedance being more "complex" than we might expect? I realize text book formulas and theories don't always hold 100% true in the real world; I'm just curious what makes this less than -6 dB per octave as we were all taught back in the beginning when learning about slopes, roll-offs, etc. I know that these things are different in 2nd order as in L-R vs BW vs BE vs Ch'y, etc. What the sims show is that my 1st order does not have a Q of 0.707 (typical BW) but acts more like L-R on a per octave basis...interesting!
Well, thanks, exactly what I thought. I do remember learning about imaginary and real parts of the complex number including impedances but that was way over 40 years ago! I know about them still but couldn't do the math without a very long and tedious study session or two! It's good to know the sims are sophisticated enough to take all of these complex variables into consideration.
hi oldspkrguy - - since you like lute, maybe these "lute-harpsichord" recordings might be enjoyable.
Bach ? Prelude BWV 997 Played On Lute-Harpsichord (Gergely Sárközy) - YouTube
Bach: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988 (Lautenwerk/lute-harpsichord: Gwendolyn Toth) - YouTube
Bach: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988 (Lautenwerk/lute-harpsichord: Wolfgang Rübsam) - YouTube
J. S. Bach - Works For Lute- Harpsichord - YouTube
Bach ? Prelude BWV 997 Played On Lute-Harpsichord (Gergely Sárközy) - YouTube
Bach: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988 (Lautenwerk/lute-harpsichord: Gwendolyn Toth) - YouTube
Bach: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988 (Lautenwerk/lute-harpsichord: Wolfgang Rübsam) - YouTube
J. S. Bach - Works For Lute- Harpsichord - YouTube
I listen to Baroque era chamber music most mornings; then sometimes I switch up to classical, full symphonies later in the day and mostly acoustic based jazz in the evenings.
I am really into the period instruments especially the theorbo or Chittarone (very large lute), viola da gamba and the baryton. I find it amazing they did so much back in those days; especially something as complex as a large pipe organ. The natural horns, trumpets, and other brass instruments of those days sometimes had no keys or valves or very few. Even the woodwinds had few keys or finger holes. I have always liked the various harpsichords as well. As I have read back through history of music; the first "instrument" besides the human singing voice was the drum (hollow logs, etc) followed by the simple flute (literally reeds blown into). I'm sure early "musicians" quickly figured out different lengths of reeds produced different pitches or "notes".
I am really into the period instruments especially the theorbo or Chittarone (very large lute), viola da gamba and the baryton. I find it amazing they did so much back in those days; especially something as complex as a large pipe organ. The natural horns, trumpets, and other brass instruments of those days sometimes had no keys or valves or very few. Even the woodwinds had few keys or finger holes. I have always liked the various harpsichords as well. As I have read back through history of music; the first "instrument" besides the human singing voice was the drum (hollow logs, etc) followed by the simple flute (literally reeds blown into). I'm sure early "musicians" quickly figured out different lengths of reeds produced different pitches or "notes".
Daniel Zapico & Pablo Zapico - Preludio, Passacaglia & Fandango [Video 8/10] [HD] - YouTube
The bite and attack on these strings is really impressive for YT! Someone had a very good mic and up very close! I much prefer the close mic. recordings; as a former musician; I really like to hear all the sounds, not muffled, muted or very far away. I don't care if we hear them take a breath, turn the pages of the music or in the case of say a bassoon; the keys clacking away. I sat near the middle of the band; this is what it really sounds like in real life; I support all recording Engineers that agree with me on this!
The bite and attack on these strings is really impressive for YT! Someone had a very good mic and up very close! I much prefer the close mic. recordings; as a former musician; I really like to hear all the sounds, not muffled, muted or very far away. I don't care if we hear them take a breath, turn the pages of the music or in the case of say a bassoon; the keys clacking away. I sat near the middle of the band; this is what it really sounds like in real life; I support all recording Engineers that agree with me on this!
I just received the Mundorf EVO oil/aluminum caps. I tried several configurations, with and without bypass, with and without attenuation, and other combinations as well. Compared to my preferred Jantzen Superior Z; they have less detail; sound more veiled, etc. If you have an overly bright sounding tweeter, maybe Ti or other hard dome; the EVO would probably help tame that down. To be fair, I didn't give them much break in time which I will now do to see if that helps or changes anything. The new inductors are still a few days away yet.
Breaking in does help some. I would say these are clean and accurate to a degree; just not nearly as capable of higher resolution or micro-detail I always crave at every price point. I may try them on some brighter Vifa Ti dome horn tweeters I have; maybe soon? Maybe not soon?? If anyone is especially curious; I will be glad to do some quick A/B listening tests. The EVO 1 uF cost just under $10 US each; the Jantzens 1 uF cost just over $15 US each so price is not really a factor here.
re:harpsichord and micing, a number of videos have mics pulled quite far from the instrument, letting the reverberant field dominate. I would think a PZM (Pressure Zone Microphone) on the lid could be useful in recording such instruments. (?)
DIY PZM Build Video - YouTube
re:capacitors and two different types I've heard that WIMA's 4-lead DC-link are good. On the other side I've used KBG and MBGO with horn speakers and did not sound rolled off or muffled. Charge coupling may be helpful with highpass filters but could get expensive with boutique caps.
The old Karlson K15 with good coax sounds better to me on harpsichord and string bass than my Klipschorns
DIY PZM Build Video - YouTube
re:capacitors and two different types I've heard that WIMA's 4-lead DC-link are good. On the other side I've used KBG and MBGO with horn speakers and did not sound rolled off or muffled. Charge coupling may be helpful with highpass filters but could get expensive with boutique caps.
The old Karlson K15 with good coax sounds better to me on harpsichord and string bass than my Klipschorns
I have also seen those mics of pianos and harpsichords, etc. I would experiment if it were me, one near and one further back. The design of the lid that tilts is obviously on purpose; I suppose we could think of it as a horn or director of sorts. In those cases, I guess if the mic is too close, some strings or notes could come out louder than others? My Brother has a few string basses; I haven't recorded him but when you sit close; you hear the bow scrapes and more harmonic richness. Further back, it sort of gets jumbled and confused. I can even tell when he changes bows; some bows sound better than other bows; if a mic is close enough and of high quality; the recording would also have this much detail. Some people like to believe there are no differences in the "sound" of passive components; again, they are missing out on the possibilities. I can tell when I do a quick A/B even the difference with having a 0.015 uF in circuit or not. I'm guessing it allows the very sharpest of rise times to not be delayed or smeared in any way so that an instantaneous signal would look nearly perfectly vertical if you observed it in the time domain on a good O' scope. Likewise; higher harmonics should appear in the frequency domain using a good spectrum analyzer. Yes, 0.015 uF is way above the audio band but I can tell you with great certainty it works it's "magic"; many others have also reported these experiences as well. (I'm not imagining things here or wishful thinking; the effect is very real)...until the end of time will these discussions and arguments go on...ha ha ha...
Lesser capacitors on these particular Vifa silk domes make it sound like what I paid for it; less than $25. In using the EVO, the quality improves a little over budget caps. Moving up to the Jantzen Superior Z improves things quite a bit; like it now sounds like a $50 tweeter. Adding my bypass; we have now extracted every last little bit of performance and they now sound like $100. So we have basically a $35 tweeter with $25 to $30 X/O parts; is it worth it? For me yes! I would say it sounds way better than a $100 tweeter with a X/O costing less than $10 to maybe $15.
Lesser capacitors on these particular Vifa silk domes make it sound like what I paid for it; less than $25. In using the EVO, the quality improves a little over budget caps. Moving up to the Jantzen Superior Z improves things quite a bit; like it now sounds like a $50 tweeter. Adding my bypass; we have now extracted every last little bit of performance and they now sound like $100. So we have basically a $35 tweeter with $25 to $30 X/O parts; is it worth it? For me yes! I would say it sounds way better than a $100 tweeter with a X/O costing less than $10 to maybe $15.
maybe i have already posted this but what do you think about this series of articles/posts
Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible? - Part 2 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible? - Part 2 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
I have a decent LCR meter. The difference is not in capacitor tolerances or inductive tolerances or even in resistive tolerances. That would certainly have an effect but this in not what I am talking about at all. The sound quality of course is subjective. I have done these same A/B comparisons with other people, all musicians. They agree with me almost 100% of the time as to which sounds good, better and best and so on. Think of musical instruments; not all violins are created equal and they don't all sound alike either. Of course we are talking about passive electronic components here so maybe not a good example but the idea is that there are most definitely differences; sometimes they are subtle; sometimes very obvious.
Interesting PZM experiment!
Interesting PZM experiment!
I just now received the 0.13 mH 14 AWG flat foil inductors. I am experimenting with tweeter attenuation and also different resistors across the coil. The RL parallel combination is to adjust the roll off of the low pass. The circuit looks just like that used for BSC but this is NOT that; I am tweaking the high frequencies; I don't care about baffle step here at all. Once I get these into the final box; I'll worry about tweaking the bass; right now; I'm more after the best blend of mids to tweeter: X/O F0, slope, attenuation, etc. More later...
Best quick listen so far: 8.0 Ohms in parallel with the 0.13 mH. Series resistor before the tweeter cap is now 2.2 Ohms instead of 3.5 Ohms. This gives me - 3.5 dB instead of - 5.0 dB. Tweeter caps remain as before; 1.165 uF combined. Mostly just very high quality jazz CD and SACD listening tests so far. Female singing voice; full range of piano; bowed acoustic bass, etc. all have a very good balance; nothing missing; nothing exaggerated; nothing too bright; nothing too dull...Goldilocks zone...just right!...stay tuned...yeah, pun intended!
Very happy with these! One of my old buddies had some Rogers BBC monitors, modeled on LS3/5A with Kef Bextrene (sp?) mid bass. He swore by them; he actually had two pairs. These are WAY better! Bass goes lower, treble goes higher, mids are more articulate and better defined. All around a very serious sounding combination for the money spent; I kid you not! I have heard $1000 speakers that are not nearly this good; no exaggeration at all. Are they Satori good? No, obviously but they come really close at a fraction of the cost. If you want or need a really good sounding 5 inch 2-way and are on a serious budget; look no further. PM me for exact details. I no longer do speakers for sale and I am willing to share my exact design if you want. I already pretty much told you most of it already here.
If you are into jazz with acoustic bass; check this out:
Brian Bromberg "Wood"
Brian Bromberg - Wood
The recording level is about as high as one would ever want; I would have probably recorded it maybe 2 or 3 dB lower but it is a good reference CD for acoustic jazz bass.
CHEERS!!!
If you are into jazz with acoustic bass; check this out:
Brian Bromberg "Wood"
Brian Bromberg - Wood
The recording level is about as high as one would ever want; I would have probably recorded it maybe 2 or 3 dB lower but it is a good reference CD for acoustic jazz bass.
CHEERS!!!
I really wouldn't expect most people to follow my design because I do crossovers much differently than most. The point is; these are both very good sounding drivers for the money and could be crossed just about any where one would care to try. Seriously, the SB13PFCR could be used full range depending on the music. The top octaves do better with a mild low pass for my listening habits and personal preferences which is why and how I ended up with such an unusual X/O. Again, those of you without upper octave hearing loss would probably choose a different tweeter but this one does a great job for me.
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