Soft domes I like. Metal domes I can't stand (for the same thing friendly is saying). Perhaps he is even more sensitive to it than I am.
Below are the polars I did of my DMS37's, no major resonance that I can see, only place there is some misbehaviour is in the 10 - 12 Khz region, though it is pretty mild.
Tony.
Below are the polars I did of my DMS37's, no major resonance that I can see, only place there is some misbehaviour is in the 10 - 12 Khz region, though it is pretty mild.
Tony.
Attachments
Spit and sizzle. I think that's about it. After a lot of thought, I think the fluid in them is too thick. They seen strained. They seem to shift everything towards the tinny, and can't do anything natural sounding.
I just made some FR speakers with the TG9FD. That's the white ones that tail off over 10k. I decided to try some old mission tweeters with just a 2.2uf I had within reach. These tweeters came in the M50 range, covering £200 stand mounts too £550 floor standing units. Nothing special, just a 25mm dome with magnet within. Well... I was astounded. I just got them cheap off ebay, to fix some broke 6x9s that ended up using a pioneer tweeter instead. So never got past a quick functional test. Now my TV speakers have almost legible singing on a test track Ive always thought instrumental. Singers with great radio voices, now sound like live performers. It's opened up a new level of hifi for me. The padding applied does little to effect this dramatic change. You just get more of less. So I try them beside the morels, and it's poor. As the morels volume increases, the pitch of everything seems to. Everything is up tight. Like someone has hold of their balls. I don't like it at any level. Padding them just works by taking them away.
I'm quite sure it's a mechanical issue. They don't have the sharp edge I associate with metal, but they are having a good try at it. While trying to do little else.
I have seen fluid of various thickness, so looking what I have here won't help me. I guess the fluid is the most important component of these, followed by the diaphragm material and rear chamber. The rest is just $9.99 so I have nothing.
I liked the missions so much, I ordered a set of the M50 with it's 100mm mid/bass to get a listen to them. I rarely hear commercial speakers of any merit. I have to calibrate my expectations somehow though.
So yes, much better with more padding. They never add anything to the sound that I want though. They have had lots of use. 20 years or so, and often at house party volumes for prolonged periods. Another poster here changed his fluid with around 20 years of use. I just wouldn't know which to use though or what to expect from them now. I'm facing the idea that their scrap. Fluids not cheap enough to just try it, and I'm not even sure what to expect as a result.
They still sound a lot better than my metal topped TDL's which were my previous measure. £750 floor standers. I'm having trouble resolving this all, to find direction.
A crossover isn't going to fix this. I thank you for all your time helping, but fear my lack of experience has left us chasing baffle step corrections and timing issues, when in fact my tweeters are broke. Or maybe they're not. Maybe they're just over priced.
I will fit the mission tops in place of the morels at some point, as my next logical move. Then the morels can be taken to bits, and cleaned out to at least investigate a little, before they become fridge magnets
I just made some FR speakers with the TG9FD. That's the white ones that tail off over 10k. I decided to try some old mission tweeters with just a 2.2uf I had within reach. These tweeters came in the M50 range, covering £200 stand mounts too £550 floor standing units. Nothing special, just a 25mm dome with magnet within. Well... I was astounded. I just got them cheap off ebay, to fix some broke 6x9s that ended up using a pioneer tweeter instead. So never got past a quick functional test. Now my TV speakers have almost legible singing on a test track Ive always thought instrumental. Singers with great radio voices, now sound like live performers. It's opened up a new level of hifi for me. The padding applied does little to effect this dramatic change. You just get more of less. So I try them beside the morels, and it's poor. As the morels volume increases, the pitch of everything seems to. Everything is up tight. Like someone has hold of their balls. I don't like it at any level. Padding them just works by taking them away.
I'm quite sure it's a mechanical issue. They don't have the sharp edge I associate with metal, but they are having a good try at it. While trying to do little else.
I have seen fluid of various thickness, so looking what I have here won't help me. I guess the fluid is the most important component of these, followed by the diaphragm material and rear chamber. The rest is just $9.99 so I have nothing.
I liked the missions so much, I ordered a set of the M50 with it's 100mm mid/bass to get a listen to them. I rarely hear commercial speakers of any merit. I have to calibrate my expectations somehow though.
So yes, much better with more padding. They never add anything to the sound that I want though. They have had lots of use. 20 years or so, and often at house party volumes for prolonged periods. Another poster here changed his fluid with around 20 years of use. I just wouldn't know which to use though or what to expect from them now. I'm facing the idea that their scrap. Fluids not cheap enough to just try it, and I'm not even sure what to expect as a result.
They still sound a lot better than my metal topped TDL's which were my previous measure. £750 floor standers. I'm having trouble resolving this all, to find direction.
A crossover isn't going to fix this. I thank you for all your time helping, but fear my lack of experience has left us chasing baffle step corrections and timing issues, when in fact my tweeters are broke. Or maybe they're not. Maybe they're just over priced.
I will fit the mission tops in place of the morels at some point, as my next logical move. Then the morels can be taken to bits, and cleaned out to at least investigate a little, before they become fridge magnets
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Tweeter damage is definitely a possibility I hadn't considered! Especially if there have been lots of parties!! (Not sure how many tweeters I blew in my uni days before I found out about polyswitches (I had a period where I used piezos, since they never blew, but they were pretty horrible).
It's interesting that you said the pitch is changing as the volume increases, I did some tests recently and found the same (objectively with measurements).
Note that the -25db level was actually 2.83V so the -10db level is over 10V!
Tony.
It's interesting that you said the pitch is changing as the volume increases, I did some tests recently and found the same (objectively with measurements).
Note that the -25db level was actually 2.83V so the -10db level is over 10V!
Tony.
Attachments
I think a pitch shift is fairly normal? These seem shrill from the moment you can hear them though. I downloaded spectroid for my android phone, which does what you likely imagine. Perhaps with some tones, I may see something. I think it's more that the lower frequencies are weak though, so likely some white noise will highlight a problem.
I've found two eBay sources for fluid. One has a viscosity of 80, while the other sells 400. A factor of 5 thicker. Confirming my loss. The vendor who supplied the tweeters does kits/repairs/upgrades and that, so perhaps they will know. Fingers crossed
I've found two eBay sources for fluid. One has a viscosity of 80, while the other sells 400. A factor of 5 thicker. Confirming my loss. The vendor who supplied the tweeters does kits/repairs/upgrades and that, so perhaps they will know. Fingers crossed
Pitch shift may be normal (I don't really know), but I'd never tested before so got a bit of a surprise. Certainly makes it more difficult to decide on a crossover if it is indeed normal... makes considering what the normal listening level will be important as well.
I've wondered about the ferrofluid in the past. I dropped one of my tweeters when I first got them and the impedance curve has allways been a bit wonky (doesn't seem to affect the FR curve though). I've never been game to open it up because it has the ferro fluid in it though.
Tony.
I've wondered about the ferrofluid in the past. I dropped one of my tweeters when I first got them and the impedance curve has allways been a bit wonky (doesn't seem to affect the FR curve though). I've never been game to open it up because it has the ferro fluid in it though.
Tony.
The weather has picked up about 5-6 degree's and they sound better. Not good, but better. Or I feel better? No, they sound better I'm sure. Leading me to conclude the ferrofluid is getting thick. As discussed in another specific thread.
I will get it cleaned out.
I will get it cleaned out.
Blue Aran sell Sonitus Ferrofluid.
Sonitus Audio Ferro Fluid (ferrofluid) for Speakers and Compression Drivers 0.5ml from Sonitus Audio PS4.99 IN STOCK (27 Jun 2018)
I'd guess you want about a quarter of it for your Morel tweeters. Get on with it...
BTW, you might have to unsolder the voicecoil leadouts for access. Or maybe not. For sure, Morel voicecoils are replaceable.
I have a rough crossover for your MW144 and MDT30 (?), based on Tony's rather good MW144 FRD file, which matches the published curves. Tweeter level might need adjust. Any resemblance between this and a 11 ohm BBC LS3/5A is not coincidental. It's all rather Butterworth. 😀
Sonitus Audio Ferro Fluid (ferrofluid) for Speakers and Compression Drivers 0.5ml from Sonitus Audio PS4.99 IN STOCK (27 Jun 2018)
I'd guess you want about a quarter of it for your Morel tweeters. Get on with it...
BTW, you might have to unsolder the voicecoil leadouts for access. Or maybe not. For sure, Morel voicecoils are replaceable.
I have a rough crossover for your MW144 and MDT30 (?), based on Tony's rather good MW144 FRD file, which matches the published curves. Tweeter level might need adjust. Any resemblance between this and a 11 ohm BBC LS3/5A is not coincidental. It's all rather Butterworth. 😀
Attachments
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I made some more progress. After playing around with spectroid, a questionable sweep on youtube and the miniDSP I have 6.5khz notched down just 2db with a quite tight filter. It's totally rebalanced to my ears. The urge to do a bit better will always be with me, but this 2db dip with just 1khz bandwidth is making me think my ears must be resonant. It wasn't outstanding on spectroid. It was just a blip on a slope that was already falling away (youtube perhaps) but to my ears was the loudest thing going on. Not any more 🙂
I have ordered the fluid today. Perhaps get a result by 2022 🙂
Thank you for finding it
This is so long ago, that I can't remember what we were doing here, but I was looking at this crossover today.
If I remember right, the MDT30 digs a bit lower than the smaller MDT29, but a useful idea for a low 2kHz MW144 crossover here:
MW1448 + MDT29-4 Passive Crossover Design - Madisound Speaker PDF Library
Hope it helps. BTW, I'm not sure if that bass shunt resistor is 3R or 6R overall either. Horrible slackness by Josh! I would call him into the office! LOL
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It's not set in stone but this adjustment sounds alright. Which seems to point to a greater difference in sensitivity than expected. I need to get that fresh fluid in and then see about turning the tweeter down a couple of db. It has been a while but iirc Tony set me up with a 2.4khz crossover drawing which I need to look over but it may allow just a simple L-pad of fixed resistors to fix this. Ultimately it's just the balance I'm talking about here though. I still have thin sounding tops. I think I'm right in saying dynaudio have the softest of silks I tend to like, so may cast my eyes that way soon. I picked up a Roksan K3 and it's not done the tops any favours beside my old Arcam
Looking back over the thread, it seems I used a commercial crossover aimed at this duty, with an additional 5ohm in series with the tweeter. I feel more like a reader than the thread starter now. There are people reading up to this point that know more about what I have done than I do. Actually, that's not really that surprising.
That graph, I should explain, is an old school graphic equaliser. The sliders, if you will. It's the miniDSP mkane77g gave me. I should really use of the software filtering to mimic a flatter upper response. In the software, a 'shelf' filter based around 1500hz should do it. One that puts everything on the left of it on a different height shelf to everything on the right.
Some hours later, I have something so profoundly different sounding that I need to sober up before passing judgement again.
That graph, I should explain, is an old school graphic equaliser. The sliders, if you will. It's the miniDSP mkane77g gave me. I should really use of the software filtering to mimic a flatter upper response. In the software, a 'shelf' filter based around 1500hz should do it. One that puts everything on the left of it on a different height shelf to everything on the right.
Some hours later, I have something so profoundly different sounding that I need to sober up before passing judgement again.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Images aren't working (even if I try to open in another tab) says there is an ssl issue with the remote site.
Strange. It's my usual hosting service and see them here.
As some time has passed, I have found a slope dropping 10db from 500hz to 1khz the most important feature of any 'back to the drawing board' spectrum mod. Even a deep tight dip at 1050hz has proved perfectly listenable. I have another interesting finding. Signal Compression works wonders.
The ferrofluid is here. Another chance to melt the terminals off my tweeters.
As some time has passed, I have found a slope dropping 10db from 500hz to 1khz the most important feature of any 'back to the drawing board' spectrum mod. Even a deep tight dip at 1050hz has proved perfectly listenable. I have another interesting finding. Signal Compression works wonders.
The ferrofluid is here. Another chance to melt the terminals off my tweeters.
I think maybe it's my works proxy server that is blocking them. If I try and open them right clicking on the link I'm getting an access denied message (from work). Unfortunately lately I have been on the VPN almost all of the time. I'll see if I can see them "offline"
You may have some excessive energy in room. I made my speakers pretty flat with semi-anechoic measurements, and in room they have a hump (can't remember exactly where) somewhere between about 500 Hz and 700 or 800 hz.
It's not enough to bother me (but shows on the measurement) so I've been too lazy to deal with it 🙂
Tony.
You may have some excessive energy in room. I made my speakers pretty flat with semi-anechoic measurements, and in room they have a hump (can't remember exactly where) somewhere between about 500 Hz and 700 or 800 hz.
It's not enough to bother me (but shows on the measurement) so I've been too lazy to deal with it 🙂
Tony.
WhatFerro — Freeimage.host
NeFerroFluid — Freeimage.host
It seems I have been constantly working on my crossovers, because the tweeters were constantly drying out. I put in the fluid and suddenly couldn't hear the tweeter. The harsh noise I associated with them was gone. The sound just seamed with that of the mid/bass. I turned off the compression software that had been so effective, and hardly noticed any change. Then set the EQ flat and listened for 5 hours straight. I still like a dip around 1500khz but only a decibel. I think soon enough I will be working on that but for now I'm shaking my head at myself for not seeing this sooner. The difference is night and day. My tweeters were broken but deteriorated so gradually that my soft Arcam covered it for some time.
I changed image host so hopefully you can see these Tony
NeFerroFluid — Freeimage.host
It seems I have been constantly working on my crossovers, because the tweeters were constantly drying out. I put in the fluid and suddenly couldn't hear the tweeter. The harsh noise I associated with them was gone. The sound just seamed with that of the mid/bass. I turned off the compression software that had been so effective, and hardly noticed any change. Then set the EQ flat and listened for 5 hours straight. I still like a dip around 1500khz but only a decibel. I think soon enough I will be working on that but for now I'm shaking my head at myself for not seeing this sooner. The difference is night and day. My tweeters were broken but deteriorated so gradually that my soft Arcam covered it for some time.
I changed image host so hopefully you can see these Tony
Nice! I've wondered for some time whether I need to do a ferrofluid change, my tweeters would be 16 years old now.... they still measure ok though so maybe leave sleeping dogs lie.
Yep I can see the images thanks 🙂
Tony.
Yep I can see the images thanks 🙂
Tony.