GOTO 6-way TimeAligned Horn System

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#102
I believe that midbass horn is also using multiple drivers. In Jeffrey Jackson's home photo it looks like he is using 3, maybe 4 drivers.

IMHO at this stage I would pull out a blank page, clear your mind and start from scratch. You have so many channels!
 
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#103
Just a question a couple questions...
First, you used Autotech horns instead of GOTO's own horns, why? Are GOTO horns unavailable in Russia?
Do you have a 15 dynamic woofer from GOTO and if so where'd you come by it?
Do you also have an FR sweep of the entire system?
Thanks,
Clashing
 
#104
Clashing said:
Just a question a couple questions...
First, you used Autotech horns instead of GOTO's own horns, why? Are GOTO horns unavailable in Russia?
Click to expand...
I have GOTO horns, but not using them.
I realized, that long horn has coloration. I call it "horn mods".
So, for SG-370 I'm using 1000hz horn, not GOTO's 600hz.
And for SG-505 - 550hz, not GOTO's 200hz!
And I've increased throat from 1" to 1.5" for both, to shorter them.
And I fill the gap between SG-146 and SG-505 with JBL 2490 in 270hz horn with 4" throat!

Do you have a 15 dynamic woofer from GOTO and if so where'd you come by it?
Click to expand...
I've just ordered a pair. For now I'm using Supravox with field coil.

Do you also have an FR sweep of the entire system?
Thanks,
Clashing
Click to expand...
I'll prepare soon latest update for each channel separately and entire system.
 
#108
New midbass horn in progress:
http://soundex.ru/uploads/monthly_2016_03/image.thumb.jpeg.80174fd2f9fda47b5eb42cdae592a4bc.jpeg
image.thumb.jpeg.1c2fc8dcae84b568c18577a38403fc6d.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.74347b40f96571ca1e4c9c7d0c6a80b2.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.fc7d19ab92640e833715f4c776127b1d.jpeg
 
#110
SystemaMurata said:
Ha-ha...Romy is posting in my thread some his fantasies regarding my "failure" with GOTO SG-146 🙂
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Another time aligned 5-way horn project
I truly believe, that this drivers are part of the uniqueness of my system's sound.
Now they play just one octave 150-300hz, but I'm going to cover 80-150hz also.
Click to expand...

Magico Ultimo does cover with its hudge midbass horn also just this frequency range. I heard it in San Francisco, at the owners home. This frequency range is so small, that the output was very small, and integration was a total mess. I imagine that the 146 is a fantastic driver. Have you tried to used it between 100hz and 500hz or 800hz ? heck, even 1khz ? In my view, that would make much more sense. Anyway, how you are able to integrate your big bass horn in your system is a mystery to me.
 
#111
This drivers are doing really great now in 150-300Hz range!
I'll be extremely happy if I cover 80-400Hz with one pair for each channel in this new half-circle horn.
300-600Hz is now covered by JBL2490 and 600Hz-1200Hz with GOTO-SG507.
But now I got GOTO-SG570BL!!! and next week getting new horns from AutoTech: JMLC-400 and going to try SG570BL in this horn to cover 400-1200Hz. In this case I reduce number of channels back to 6-way!
20-80Hz Supravox 15"
80-400Hz GOTO SG-147LD
400-1200Hz GOTO SG-570BL
1200-5000Hz GOTO SG-370DX (GOTO SG-3880BL coming)
5000-10000Hz GOTO SG-16TT (GOTO SG-188BL coming)
10000hz-20000Hz RAAL Lazy Ribbon 9"
 
#114
hope to help, its an ambitious project!

SystemaMurata said:
This drivers are doing really great now in 150-300Hz range! <snip>
Click to expand...
400hz JMLC is not appropiate for using down to 400hz. It can be done, but it wont be horn loading around there...

Also Supravox, is it the 480-2000? If so you would be better off using it from at least 80hz as it flattens out and responds nicely from there. Between 70-80hz to 500-600hz you can have good sound with a proper horn. It covers those 3 octaves nicely. To do this and horn load it properly, you need at least a 60hz cf horn, which would be too big and would be hard to align physically if round tractrix or JMLC... Maybe you can use these plans with your supravox drivers. (model them and have a rough idea before doing it) JBL 2240 60hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound.

From above this, you can have a 200hz tractrix horn and your GOTO SG-570BL to cover from 500hz up to roughly 4000hz. I see you can have this built out of wood too.

Below 70-80hz, tapped horn will satisfy you. If you want to have less room modes in your room. Go crazy (as you already seem to be 🙂 ) and build two tapped horns for your room.

So you can cover; (these are rough estimations, not your precise xo points)
20hz to 80hz with tapped horns from volvotreter site (the one I built, full scale)
80hz to 640hz with inlowsound 60hz horn with supravox 15"
640hz to 5120hz with 200hz horn and GOTO SG-570BL
5120hz to 20.000hz with GOTO SG-188BL

This setup, if matched with very precise and good crossovers and precise alignment can potentially be very good. I do not know about inlows 60hz horns but it looks like it can work. This setup will also be about 180cms high! which is great for a fully horn loaded setup (except the tapped horns)

If you want you can add your ribbon tweeter and do not go all the way with the sg-188bl. I don't know, as I havent heard these goto drivers.

I want to remind you, my experience has shown me, only when the correct attenuation levels, crossover slopes, correct horn implementation and alignment is reached, the horn shouting and similar artifacts disappear. Then, correct positioning in the room and the room treatment will be your concern 🙂

I hope you reach your satisfaction. You may want to spend more time on a specific and a logically laid out plan and then do less changes. Make stuff work, whatever you buy regardless of price wont be working right away without tuning them properly.

From what I have read, what you call horn coloration can be because you are pushing your horns too much. This is counter intuitive as you have a lot of channels (horns and drivers). Why are you pushing your horns down to their cf? The reason you are having more channels is so you wont be pushing your drivers and horns unnaturally. Be at least half octave above cf, preferably be an octave above.

Hornfabrik in Germany has helped me with my crossovers. Maybe you can talk to Helmut there. They are building crossovers for their own and design for very expensive commercial and diy systems.
 
#117
angeloitacare said:
Why do it simple, if you can do it complex ?

Gone all that through. 12p80nd/TPL150. My search has ended. 🙂
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Angelo, I see you on a lot of horn threads around the web. I think you have found your way out in the land of audio and I congratulate you. However, your recommendations are off-topic on multi way horn applications now 🙂

I see you ended up with efficient direct radiators, maybe a 99db efficient two way system. This is all good, and I hope to hear your application one day as you had a lot of experience on different systems.

Still, when you go through specific equipment, it does not mean that you know how they will sound in other peoples setups unless you have the exact same setup. You can have a guess on potential or you can see some fundamentally wrong applications and tell people about it.

Just hearing the same horns, compression drivers etc is not enough. That approach is lacking. Maybe you have gone through the same driver with the same horn with me or SystemaMurata. Did you also have the exact same components on your crossover? Was it implemented the same way? I do not think so. It is a very big and complex system and everything works in relation to each other. Even very small changes in systems like these alter the sound a lot. One has to be very patient to find out about the problems and then work systematically to get over all the problems.

I ended up with a system that is 109db efficient which is both flat, has good decay (the room setup), integrates very well from the right distance on. Now when I change a single resistor on my crossover for attenuation, the system does not sound like that anymore. It still measures nearly the same but you loose that great illusion. It is true for sitting too close, too low or high as well.

I knew all these when I was building. Every application has pros and cons. On my listening spot, my system sounds very well. Is there more way to go. Yes, I can do the same system, with better drivers. However changing a driver now, would mean a few more months of work for me. I found out, correct implementation is as important if not more important than the parts itself. So if I just buy a better driver and stick it to back of my horn, it wont sound better, it will sound worse. Does that mean that drivers worse than mine, no! It means it is not suited or is not implemented right yet.

From amp to crossover, from crossover to driver, from driver to horn, and then to room. It is all related. Then you have 4 more channels that channel interacts with. Change one thing in this equation and everything has to be rethought.
 
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#118
kodomo said:
Angelo, I see you on a lot of horn threads around the web. <snip>
Click to expand...

Kodomo

let me ask you: If you have 2 hours per day to play with audio, how much time do you spend listening to music, and how much tweaking around ?
Upon my experience, it was more important to me to research how to get my dream configuration, what equipment to choose, what tweak to do, how that or this driver might sound and improve the sound, how to get better integration etc. etc. While it was fun to live with the expectation to get the best possible performance, there was also a constant companion : A dissatisfaction with the actual result. I know there are a lot of people that become addicted to that. And to listen actually to music becomes secondary. I am healed by that " audio-virus". But there is people, that the addiction is never healed...... Of course i am not saying that must be necessarly your case, but generally ..... :=))
 
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#119
Vil said:
No chances to get same dynamics and resolution from 12p80nd/TPL150 compared to GOTO system. This is another league , sure if everything made right .
Click to expand...

I know, i know.... gone all through this. But dynamics is not everything.
To have the most satisfying result is a balance act of several aspects that need to be considered. In Audio, everything is a trade-off. I might have not the same dynamics as a full horn loaded system, but i win other pluses.
 
#120
angeloitacare said:
Kodomo

let me ask you: If you have 2 hours per day to play with audio, how much time do you spend listening to music, and how much tweaking around ?
Upon my experience, it was more important to me to research how to get my dream configuration, what equipment to choose, what tweak to do, how that or this driver might sound and improve the sound, how to get better integration etc. etc. While it was fun to live with the expectation to get the best possible performance, there was also a constant companion : A dissatisfaction with the actual result. I know there are a lot of people that become addicted to that. And to listen actually to music becomes secondary. I am healed by that " audio-virus". But there is people, that the addiction is never healed...... Of course i am not saying that must be necessarly your case, but generally ..... :=))
Click to expand...

Angelo, to answer your question, I tinker with the audio equipment maybe 1 hour or 2 hours a trypical week and listen to music about 3 to 5 hours every night. I plan a lot beforehand though. I read and I calculate if I can. Every once in a while, if I make a big change, I spend about half of a weekend measuring, then the rest listening. If I make small changes, I let them stay for at least 2 weeks and listen before making another change. Sometimes I take more time.

I am single, and I am also a musician and a music studio owner (as a hobby now). I spend all my money on records, audio equipment and instruments. I do not own a tv or cable. I watch a movie through my projection but again with my stereo for sound.

I have thousands of records and thousands of cd's. I also make recordings and listen to them through studio monitors and my hi-fi. I am very lucky to be in this position. I hear and record the actual performance, I know my microphone and its character as the rest of my recording equipment. So I know what should my hi-fi play. This is something I really like people to experience as well. This is the best way I have found to evaluate if my playback is actually high fidelity.
 
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