Wish I had kept the BD-1/Black Widow. My high compliance carts might have had a home. My Ampex kit is of sentimental value since my dad laid down bill paying money to get us something good. I pulled the reel to reel in favor of a Dual changer. There's a minimal phono preamp that might be the basis of a future all or mostly all tube set; I can tell that flexibility loading wise is useful for us old school shure lovers.
I even like Fords. Sixes. Scant hope for some of us
I even like Fords. Sixes. Scant hope for some of us
Fords? are you kidding?
I'm a Plymouth man myself. beep! beep!
I guess it depends on what 1960's Fords you're talking about...
The BD-1/219 tonearm is pretty amazing too.
I'm a Plymouth man myself. beep! beep!
I guess it depends on what 1960's Fords you're talking about...
The BD-1/219 tonearm is pretty amazing too.
That's six cylinder, and way off topic. I miss the kick start rubber band plain deal that was the Connoisseur. I did "mass up" the "plinth" but then I let it go. Still have the Goldring 900 that it came with; hoping for a stylus someday.
Your Ampex kit is likely very good. If the speakers are JBL LE8 it's about the best midrange cone driver out there and respectable fullrange performer.
The perceived quality of any audio tool is only a question of personal reference points.
The perceived quality of any audio tool is only a question of personal reference points.
My Ampex is 1958 vintage; the 8" FR looks more GE than JBL. One of them disappeared in a failed repair decades ago. I swapped in a Stephens 8"
Back to turntables: I should maybe attempt to buy back the Zero 100 I sold to an elderly neighbor for 20 bucks years ago.
Back to turntables: I should maybe attempt to buy back the Zero 100 I sold to an elderly neighbor for 20 bucks years ago.
I bought an Oracle Delphi Mk.1 with missing parts and broken lid for about £300, plus maintenance kit for £170, made the missing parts (I have a lathe), glued the lid, made some upgrade parts, and for around £500 have a deck I have wanted for 25 years.
Without the workshop equipment, I could not have done it; it all depends on your skills set. I need lots of help with electronics, but metal and wood working are what I do.
Without the workshop equipment, I could not have done it; it all depends on your skills set. I need lots of help with electronics, but metal and wood working are what I do.
I have been looking more at the Thorens TD 160, 150, and 125 since yesturday and those three seem like they would be a cheaper option right now compared to the td 124, garrard, and Lenco.
Therefore, I think I am going to expand my search to encompass the 160 as I continue to look for a Bogen or Benjamin branded Lenco. Especially since I have learned that Lenco is particuarly hard to find in the states. So unless I find a Lenco first I will be trying to get a 160 as it can be hard for less. It will also be nice to have a nicely restored 160 to compare to the the idler driver type players once I do get my grubby little hands on one.
Therefore, I think I am going to expand my search to encompass the 160 as I continue to look for a Bogen or Benjamin branded Lenco. Especially since I have learned that Lenco is particuarly hard to find in the states. So unless I find a Lenco first I will be trying to get a 160 as it can be hard for less. It will also be nice to have a nicely restored 160 to compare to the the idler driver type players once I do get my grubby little hands on one.
Thorens TD160 decks...
are mighty fine pieces. At little "low rent" feeling compared to the best, and the old idlers, but great turntables regardless. See the information that I provided to user510 (Steve Clark) regarding the Chadwick mods at the Analog Dept's TD160 dept . These can all be accomplished by almost anybody, even if you have 2 left hands, such as I do. My first decent turntable was a Thorens 16X (I can't remember if it was a 160 or 166).
The TD150, TD16X and TD125 tables are a great place to start. With little very effort (and money) they can be made to sound way beyond their "class". Don't be afraid of the Thorens arm, some folks swear by them. DIY mats, custom armboards (that allow the installation of different tonearms), tonearm rewiring, spring /suspension replacement (I particularly like the idea of using pieces of automotive heater hoses as a suspension), base plate replacement or complete removal (as many Linn LP12 owners have done over the years).
You may also check with Steve and see if he has any tables for sale. He sometimes does, and although I have never heard any of his tables, I have confidence that for the money it would be hard to beat (as a rebuilt turntable). Also look at Vinyl Nirvana. They sell refurbed tables as well. Currently there is a TD146 (essentially a TD166 with auto shut off) that has been gone through and guaranteed good for $329, which I think is a reasonable price for it, particularly since a cartridge is included. If my facts are correct, it is an electronically speed controlled deck, with auto shut off (semi-auto, which is quite convenient). The plinth could be tossed in the future if you make a custom one, and the bearing/sub-platter can be upgraded at a later date. The included dust cover could be polished out (if doing this find a good auto detailer to do this), or sanded to give it a frosted look.
Please note that I have never had anything to do personally with either Vinyl Nirvana, or the Analog Dept., but have no reason to believe that you would get anything but good service from either of them. There is no financial gain to be had by me by suggesting these 2 sites. I am sure there are other reputable turntable rebuilders out there that can serve folks properly as well, I just have never really looked.
Lencos could be had in the $300 range (or less if you stumble across one).
are mighty fine pieces. At little "low rent" feeling compared to the best, and the old idlers, but great turntables regardless. See the information that I provided to user510 (Steve Clark) regarding the Chadwick mods at the Analog Dept's TD160 dept . These can all be accomplished by almost anybody, even if you have 2 left hands, such as I do. My first decent turntable was a Thorens 16X (I can't remember if it was a 160 or 166).
The TD150, TD16X and TD125 tables are a great place to start. With little very effort (and money) they can be made to sound way beyond their "class". Don't be afraid of the Thorens arm, some folks swear by them. DIY mats, custom armboards (that allow the installation of different tonearms), tonearm rewiring, spring /suspension replacement (I particularly like the idea of using pieces of automotive heater hoses as a suspension), base plate replacement or complete removal (as many Linn LP12 owners have done over the years).
You may also check with Steve and see if he has any tables for sale. He sometimes does, and although I have never heard any of his tables, I have confidence that for the money it would be hard to beat (as a rebuilt turntable). Also look at Vinyl Nirvana. They sell refurbed tables as well. Currently there is a TD146 (essentially a TD166 with auto shut off) that has been gone through and guaranteed good for $329, which I think is a reasonable price for it, particularly since a cartridge is included. If my facts are correct, it is an electronically speed controlled deck, with auto shut off (semi-auto, which is quite convenient). The plinth could be tossed in the future if you make a custom one, and the bearing/sub-platter can be upgraded at a later date. The included dust cover could be polished out (if doing this find a good auto detailer to do this), or sanded to give it a frosted look.
Please note that I have never had anything to do personally with either Vinyl Nirvana, or the Analog Dept., but have no reason to believe that you would get anything but good service from either of them. There is no financial gain to be had by me by suggesting these 2 sites. I am sure there are other reputable turntable rebuilders out there that can serve folks properly as well, I just have never really looked.
Lencos could be had in the $300 range (or less if you stumble across one).
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If on the budget ,I'd forget about restoring vintage idler clunkers. This is an entertainment of bored people who already have too many tables. All those lenco. thorens and Garrard messiahs. Its mostly a big ilusion and herd vintage mania with a few proclaimed gurus with their "ideas"of how to pollute the air with "their " sound. Keep your day job, take extra hrs. and buy decent table and splurge on cartridge not forgetting abou the rest of the chain. Whenever I see folks promoting idler drivers I cannot help it but notice it's a bottom of the barrel. And if a janiotorial guy like me notice that it must be appaling to the rest of sane audio practitioners. Good luck with your journey. 😉
uh, good luck with your sobriety, dude. Diversity actually improves the breeding, if you will. Or if you won't. Idler, dd, bd...live music is best. This needs to be fun, Just My Opinion. We are descended from many ancestors. Who can really say which is the One. Simmer down; don't be like me
ffs - just go get something
tt's are a minefield worse than high end cable. There are many good tables - most of them have already been named in this thread.
In everything apart from infintisimal difference, they produce the same result. the rest is bollocks.
Just buy one - idler, belt, dd, whatever - get a reasonable cart and start spinning the vinyl. Any mistake you make is resale-able anyway and your obsessive compulsive problem will be fed for the rest of your life...
tt's are a minefield worse than high end cable. There are many good tables - most of them have already been named in this thread.
In everything apart from infintisimal difference, they produce the same result. the rest is bollocks.
Just buy one - idler, belt, dd, whatever - get a reasonable cart and start spinning the vinyl. Any mistake you make is resale-able anyway and your obsessive compulsive problem will be fed for the rest of your life...
The whole idea of belt drive in top TTs is the isolation from motor vibration it gives. No other TT topology does this and that's why they sound better than idler or DD in my experience as long as there's a heavy or to be more technically correct a high inertia platter to iron out its one weakness, stylus drag on high amplitude sections of music which can affect musical pitch and timing resolution. A smooth running motor helps a lot, eg Linn's Valhalla upgrade really quietened the motor just by running the motor with a lower voltage synthesized undistorted AC.
There's also been a few mentions that making a plinth is easy. I've made a few that looked great but made the sound lousy, so all I'm saying is do your research.
There's also been a few mentions that making a plinth is easy. I've made a few that looked great but made the sound lousy, so all I'm saying is do your research.
FFS just go get a table... oops a little long
aardvarkash10: not bollocks...even a casual listener can hear the differences. Not everyone admits it, but most can. And the costs have to be rationalized. Given what I know today, I would have opted for a different table/arm combination than I currently have. I'd probably gotten a Heybrook TT2 or a Dunlop/Systemdek IIX, mount multiple motors on it and convert it to rim drive. (so essentially an Audio Note TT2, with a Funk Firm Vector drive system). And I will never spend what I consider to be big money for a tonearm. I'll always make mine from now on. Cables do create a different "sound", as all cables have an impedance and inductance so act as some sort of filter. Whether that filter is palatable to you or not, that is a different story. Having said that my DIY tonearm re-wires use a very inexpensive wire, and very decent connectors at both the cartridge and at the phono stage. Notice I didn't reference cost? More $$$s spent does not always equal increased performance.
limono:
Your comment is contrary to my experience. Please note, I am not looking for a fight, and do not take offense to what follows. My current turntable costs about $8k to replace if I had to. Oracle Alex MkII (no longer made, but the lowest suspended table Oracle currently makes is the Delphi, at about CAD $4k). The tonearm on mine is the SME 309 Magnesium (most recent version), CAD $2650. Phono stage is a PS Audio III, with upgraded power supply. Currently, PS Audio's only phono stage is USD $1k. I use a Grado Sig8 MCZ cartridge. Not sure what the current equivalent is, but perhaps USD $500? This was compared directly to my friend's Xerxes MkI (with class A motor drive amplifier/power supply), a hot-rodded Rega RB250 (Tecno-weight, Michelle VTA adjuster and internal silver/teflon wiring direct to the phono stage)/ Ortofon MC3turbo MC cartridge.
And the idler wheel that both were compared to? A beater Dual 1214 that I gutted (no longer a changer), with a DIY tonearm (silver/teflon internal wiring , single piece to the phono stage) and Grado Sig 8, as above. Was the old, ugly Dual better? Nope, but close enough to call it a draw. The Alex seemed slow by comparison, The Xerxes and the Dual were closer. The Dual presented what I would call "lightening quick" transients, deep bass, and the best imaging of the three. The imaging of the Xerxes was similar although "smaller", and with slightly more bass. The Oracle with the SME 309 presented the most "body" and the deepest bass of the three. So which is better? I liked the Xerxes/RB250 the most, because it was sort of "in the middle" in terms of extension, body, transient attack, and soundstaging. But the Dual was mighty appealing. This was listened to installed in a quick and dirty plinth made of scap pieces of wood. Nothing more exotic than that. There is more potential to be had in a reasonable plinth made of baltic birch ply or hardwood. But nothing that could not be reproduced by anyone with a table saw or even a decent set of skills and a regular old (non-power) hand saw. Which was most accurate? I think the Dual. All three had their speeds checked with a digital tachometer, adjusted (if possible) and rechecked for speed.
The old Dual as tested, represented (without the cartridge) less than $50 total investment, but a fair bit of time. So no more "clunker" comments. How many idlers that are set up properly (in a modern sense, including a decent arm, a decent budget cartridge, reasonable internal wire, etc) have you heard? And there are tons of non-idlers out their worthy of a rebuild or restoration (actually more correctly a "resto-mod")
awkwardbydesign: The Oracles are pretty nice. I have an Alex. The Delphi and Premier were much better. The plinth of the Alex is the single largest problem. It is hollow and made of stainless steel, wood and plastic and is not put together particularly well. The "towers" for the springs are plastic and the Alex sub-chassis always rub up against them---a major flaw. The factory fix? Buy or make a "skid" to attach to each tower...a band-aide at best. The Delphi never suffered from that and the Delphi MkI can be upgraded to Mk IV if you have the $$$s. What arm are you using?
All: The idea here has been to provide ORNJ possibilities for tables worthy of restoration. My suggestion for old Dual or Lenco idler wheel changers is that they are available very inexpensively and with a little work can sound remarkably good for under $100 (including cartridge).
Just for interest sakes here's a list of turntables that I currently own or have owned. I have listened to them all for various periods of time. All have something to bring to listening experience:
DD types:
Belt drive types:
Idler types:
aardvarkash10: not bollocks...even a casual listener can hear the differences. Not everyone admits it, but most can. And the costs have to be rationalized. Given what I know today, I would have opted for a different table/arm combination than I currently have. I'd probably gotten a Heybrook TT2 or a Dunlop/Systemdek IIX, mount multiple motors on it and convert it to rim drive. (so essentially an Audio Note TT2, with a Funk Firm Vector drive system). And I will never spend what I consider to be big money for a tonearm. I'll always make mine from now on. Cables do create a different "sound", as all cables have an impedance and inductance so act as some sort of filter. Whether that filter is palatable to you or not, that is a different story. Having said that my DIY tonearm re-wires use a very inexpensive wire, and very decent connectors at both the cartridge and at the phono stage. Notice I didn't reference cost? More $$$s spent does not always equal increased performance.
limono:
Your comment is contrary to my experience. Please note, I am not looking for a fight, and do not take offense to what follows. My current turntable costs about $8k to replace if I had to. Oracle Alex MkII (no longer made, but the lowest suspended table Oracle currently makes is the Delphi, at about CAD $4k). The tonearm on mine is the SME 309 Magnesium (most recent version), CAD $2650. Phono stage is a PS Audio III, with upgraded power supply. Currently, PS Audio's only phono stage is USD $1k. I use a Grado Sig8 MCZ cartridge. Not sure what the current equivalent is, but perhaps USD $500? This was compared directly to my friend's Xerxes MkI (with class A motor drive amplifier/power supply), a hot-rodded Rega RB250 (Tecno-weight, Michelle VTA adjuster and internal silver/teflon wiring direct to the phono stage)/ Ortofon MC3turbo MC cartridge.
And the idler wheel that both were compared to? A beater Dual 1214 that I gutted (no longer a changer), with a DIY tonearm (silver/teflon internal wiring , single piece to the phono stage) and Grado Sig 8, as above. Was the old, ugly Dual better? Nope, but close enough to call it a draw. The Alex seemed slow by comparison, The Xerxes and the Dual were closer. The Dual presented what I would call "lightening quick" transients, deep bass, and the best imaging of the three. The imaging of the Xerxes was similar although "smaller", and with slightly more bass. The Oracle with the SME 309 presented the most "body" and the deepest bass of the three. So which is better? I liked the Xerxes/RB250 the most, because it was sort of "in the middle" in terms of extension, body, transient attack, and soundstaging. But the Dual was mighty appealing. This was listened to installed in a quick and dirty plinth made of scap pieces of wood. Nothing more exotic than that. There is more potential to be had in a reasonable plinth made of baltic birch ply or hardwood. But nothing that could not be reproduced by anyone with a table saw or even a decent set of skills and a regular old (non-power) hand saw. Which was most accurate? I think the Dual. All three had their speeds checked with a digital tachometer, adjusted (if possible) and rechecked for speed.
The old Dual as tested, represented (without the cartridge) less than $50 total investment, but a fair bit of time. So no more "clunker" comments. How many idlers that are set up properly (in a modern sense, including a decent arm, a decent budget cartridge, reasonable internal wire, etc) have you heard? And there are tons of non-idlers out their worthy of a rebuild or restoration (actually more correctly a "resto-mod")
awkwardbydesign: The Oracles are pretty nice. I have an Alex. The Delphi and Premier were much better. The plinth of the Alex is the single largest problem. It is hollow and made of stainless steel, wood and plastic and is not put together particularly well. The "towers" for the springs are plastic and the Alex sub-chassis always rub up against them---a major flaw. The factory fix? Buy or make a "skid" to attach to each tower...a band-aide at best. The Delphi never suffered from that and the Delphi MkI can be upgraded to Mk IV if you have the $$$s. What arm are you using?
All: The idea here has been to provide ORNJ possibilities for tables worthy of restoration. My suggestion for old Dual or Lenco idler wheel changers is that they are available very inexpensively and with a little work can sound remarkably good for under $100 (including cartridge).
Just for interest sakes here's a list of turntables that I currently own or have owned. I have listened to them all for various periods of time. All have something to bring to listening experience:
DD types:
- Kencraft (Kenwood/Trio) GX870 semi-auto with Ortofon OM10
- Yamaha P751/Shure M95ED
Belt drive types:
- as above, Oracle Alex MkII
- Heybrook TT2/ Xenon, Grado (low dollar type);
- Yamaha PF1000, Grado Silver;
- Yamaha Y450, Shure M95ED
- Garrard Zero 1000 SB/ Shure M65(?);
- Dual CS5000/Ortofon OM5
Idler types:
- Garrard Lab60/DIY arm/Grado Sig8
- Garrard LAb80 with stock arm and Shure M97ED
- Dual 1214/DIY arm/Grado Sig8
"awkwardbydesign: The Oracles are pretty nice. I have an Alex. The Delphi and Premier were much better. The plinth of the Alex is the single largest problem. It is hollow and made of stainless steel, wood and plastic and is not put together particularly well. The "towers" for the springs are plastic and the Alex sub-chassis always rub up against them---a major flaw. The factory fix? Buy or make a "skid" to attach to each tower...a band-aide at best. The Delphi never suffered from that and the Delphi MkI can be upgraded to Mk IV if you have the $$$s. What arm are you using?"
Decca International + Decca London Supergold, or AT 1503(Short version, apparently rare) or Mission 774 (original version) with AT OC9 or Ortofon SPU (E, I think, Van den Hul retipped).
Decca International + Decca London Supergold, or AT 1503(Short version, apparently rare) or Mission 774 (original version) with AT OC9 or Ortofon SPU (E, I think, Van den Hul retipped).
Nanook, I'm certainly not into picking a fight. I just had different experience with idler decks, and maybe we look for different things and values in musical performance. Dual changer was a TT which steered me into vinyl . I could not believe the music that this simple "junky " setup was playing at my GF's father basement with heathkit electronics and Fisher speakers. Reading about "magic" those old idler/DD posses I bought into it and started with Garrad lab 80, than I've got 2 Thorenses TD124, than I've had a few japanese mid-grade Direct Drives the best one being technics Sp-25 and even now I have very good Sony 2251 -equivalent of SP-10. I also have half finished huge birch ply plinth for old Lenco L-75 but failure with Thorens TD-124 project spoiled it a little and I'm not sure I will ever finish it. I don't see messing with machines and cables as a "fun" anymore. Actually I deeply regret getting into this sort of activity 🙂
Looking at this thread and OP's request and the means at his disposal I realise your advice was pretty safe and a sound one. At the end everybody has to arrive on his own , trough experience on the set up which is expression of personality and needs/believes one posseses. Regards, L
Looking at this thread and OP's request and the means at his disposal I realise your advice was pretty safe and a sound one. At the end everybody has to arrive on his own , trough experience on the set up which is expression of personality and needs/believes one posseses. Regards, L
OK, maybe a little harsh, but I get a bit tired of threads that start "I've never heard vinyl before... what should I get?" and then proceed into an esoteric recital of peoples preferences for hand-made or high end and collection of personal biases...
Most new entrants are best served (imo) by just getting SOMETHING (of reasonable quality) and playing some vinyl. Maybe they like it, maybe not. Maybe they are satisfied, maybe they want to start tweaking (gag) or experimenting with newer, better equipment.
But you have to start somewhere. Asking for the opinions of others endlessly seems just a procrastination exercise. Again, imo e&oe, and ymmv
Trouble is, there is so much variation in turntable sound, at least there was when my ears were young and I kept upgrading until I was satisfied. It's easy to waste money upgrading.
My upgrade progression and rough guide to quality from the late 60's ......
Late 50's Radiogram with blunderbuss plastic arm with >10g tracking crystal cartridge- Awful & destroyed records.
Garrard autochanger SP25, ceramic cartridge - better but still rumble, distort, muddled. Vinyl survived though mostly.
Connoiseur BD1 belt drive TT & arm kit, Sonotone ceramic cart, made a plinth - now there was music and separation of instruments, I was hooked on hifi. Later upgrade to Shure magnetic enhanced everything. Not bad for the time (1970?) and price.
Dual 504 autochanger (1978?), it had good reviews and was good for an autochanger but no real improvement on the Connoiseur apart from it didn't suffer from acoustic feedback due to the suspension actually working, so bass could be played louder!
Michelle Focus 1 (1980?). What a massive improvement and it looked superb. Really clear open sound at last but it had a fierce top end which got tiring. It was a league above run of the mill hifi at the time though.
Rega Planar 3 (1980?). Got one after a friend played me his Planar 2. For the 1st time I heard 3 dimensional sound, massive depth as well as the clarity of the Focus 1. I was happy with this using Ortofon and A&R magnetics.
Linn Sondek/Ittok arm/Osawa moving coil (1982) . I suddenly had some money so splashed out on this and it just took the RP3 sound up to another plane. It had the 3D, the openness, clarity of the RP3 but more so, and it also had something nothing else I had heard had ever shown and that was pace and drive - probably just another word for clarity but this clarity extended to wider frequency extremes than before. At last I could follow both the bass drum and bass guitar completely separately, and cymbals could 'clang' along with the usual tizz i.e. they sounded like they were made of real metal. Apart from 3 upgrades to the Linn and cartridge, this has stayed as my TT source until present. Further adventures into CD brought much disappointment, early CD was no better than the Dual 504, and took a good while to sort out so it could be very close to LP12 vinyl, late 90's before I managed that.
In the 70's I also had much exposure to a Garrard 401 in a radio studio -it was quite good, probably a bit like the Focus 1 for sound quality thinking about it in retrospect, a clear sound but 2D only but that could have been other things at fault as it wasn't my equipment. In the early 80's I loved a Pink Triangle for it's ability to present all instruments in their own 'walk around' space. I heard all sorts of TTs at hifi shows but couldn't say that any over-impressed but you know what shows are like, Townsend Rock, Systemdeck, Oracle, Thorens, Technics, Roksan etc. Never heard a Goldring Lenco though.
Basically, turntables don't just sound a bit different, there are absolutely huge variations in sound quality. I wouldn't bother restoring anything that didn't have the prospect of excellent sound at the end of the rainbow. Wish I could help on the Lenco.
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IMO this is the daddy of all TTs:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/atta...d1187012629-emt-950-347-bbc-turntable-emt.jpg
It is an EMT 950 wide body with BBC mods. A refurb should do as they are pretty indestructible and they also come with their own phono pre. Signal output is on balanced XLRs. When new they cost about as much as a comfortable family home in London. 8 years ago they could be had for £1300 on ebay but since then prices have more than doubled.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/atta...d1187012629-emt-950-347-bbc-turntable-emt.jpg
It is an EMT 950 wide body with BBC mods. A refurb should do as they are pretty indestructible and they also come with their own phono pre. Signal output is on balanced XLRs. When new they cost about as much as a comfortable family home in London. 8 years ago they could be had for £1300 on ebay but since then prices have more than doubled.
This is well put, get your feet wet, and then experiment later if you want/think you can get more out of your vinyl.
I've had a progression of tables, most recently acquiring a pair of TD-124 which are keepers, preceded for a short while by an SME-20/2 and for a very long while by a TD-125/I. All made (make) music at some (pretty high) level and that is what counts.
I highly recommend Thorens tables like the 125/126/145/150 etc. Some of these are still bargains relative to the performance they can offer. I love my TD-124s, but anyone thinking of going this route had better be willing to spend some very serious money - the others all offer good performance with less fuss.
Go out and get a table!
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