I’m a big fan of fullrange drivers because they have no crossover in the region where the ear is the most sensitive. But I’m also aware of the disadvantages of fullrange systems so I want to try to design a 3 way speaker that avoids a crossover in that region but still got a good dispertion and no resonances in the passband. In my experience the passband where the ear is the most sensitive to that is between 400Hz and 3.5kHz.
Tweeter and woofer is no issue to find, but it’s hard to find a midband driver that does that band clean and with a good dispertion, so I’m looking for your advice. Dome mids were my first thought, but most don’t do that full region, they can’t get low enough. Cone drivers mostly don’t do it clean to 3.5 a 4Khz as they start to beam or resonate. So my question is, do you know drivers that can do that, and that are reasonable priced. I know smaller Mark Audio drivers can do that, so that may be an option, but I’m looking for a project without those (as I already have a few in my home).
System I had in mind is about 88dB efficient with a 1” tweeter and one or two 8” woofers. For mid I think the best would be a 3 to 5” cone mid or a 2-3” dome mid. Crossovers are not decided yet (i do that after i have the drivers and cabinets), but it’s a big chance I do it passive (as I like those more). It’s a long term project (I got quiet a few others in the pipeline), but as I’m very slow in my developments of designs, it does not harm to start already with that.
So what mid drivers do you suggest for this project?
Tweeter and woofer is no issue to find, but it’s hard to find a midband driver that does that band clean and with a good dispertion, so I’m looking for your advice. Dome mids were my first thought, but most don’t do that full region, they can’t get low enough. Cone drivers mostly don’t do it clean to 3.5 a 4Khz as they start to beam or resonate. So my question is, do you know drivers that can do that, and that are reasonable priced. I know smaller Mark Audio drivers can do that, so that may be an option, but I’m looking for a project without those (as I already have a few in my home).
System I had in mind is about 88dB efficient with a 1” tweeter and one or two 8” woofers. For mid I think the best would be a 3 to 5” cone mid or a 2-3” dome mid. Crossovers are not decided yet (i do that after i have the drivers and cabinets), but it’s a big chance I do it passive (as I like those more). It’s a long term project (I got quiet a few others in the pipeline), but as I’m very slow in my developments of designs, it does not harm to start already with that.
So what mid drivers do you suggest for this project?
You seem to have answered your own question already. 🙂 If you like fullrange drivers, why not use a fullrange driver as a midrange driver? I have not yet seen one driver labeled as "fullrange" that cannot handle the frequency range of 400Hz to 3.5KHz.
As to a good fullrange driver for the midrange duty, I'd suggest you check out Fostex FX120. It is used in Von Schweikert Audio Unified Model 3, which was described as an “augmented” one-way loudspeaker.
Kurt
As to a good fullrange driver for the midrange duty, I'd suggest you check out Fostex FX120. It is used in Von Schweikert Audio Unified Model 3, which was described as an “augmented” one-way loudspeaker.
Kurt
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Tang Band may also be an option as used by Jim Holtz Statements_Monitor
I know you want to stay away from MA but here's an interesting project for inspiration 3 way build with Alpair 7MS mid | KJF Audio
The Fostex FF85WK or FF105WK may also be worthy of consideration. I have the FE103EN that has a particularly sweet midrange that challenges the Alpair 7MS. Just that the top end is dry (flat on axis but narrow) and limited XMAX for the bass.
I know you want to stay away from MA but here's an interesting project for inspiration 3 way build with Alpair 7MS mid | KJF Audio
The Fostex FF85WK or FF105WK may also be worthy of consideration. I have the FE103EN that has a particularly sweet midrange that challenges the Alpair 7MS. Just that the top end is dry (flat on axis but narrow) and limited XMAX for the bass.
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I successfully used the L.Cao 6" drivers as a midrange. Had mixed results with the PS95 due to the 2k oddity (which I can hear quite clearly).
Plenty of examples of using a FR driver as a midrange. They seem to do pretty well at that, unlike when used by themselves.
Plenty of examples of using a FR driver as a midrange. They seem to do pretty well at that, unlike when used by themselves.
What max SPL do you pursue? For -say- clean 105dB at 3m (half space) you need a volume displacement (Vd) of 25cm3 @ 400Hz. Not every midrange will do that and with two 8" woofers 105dB is realistic at the least. Power dissipation is another aspect. Use Basta! or WinISD for some analysis there. Guess you will find 4,5-5" to be suitable.
Next: are you in for metal cones? Zaph ZA14, Dayton RS150S, Visaton AL130(M), SB 15NBAC and others offer breakup-free operation up till 8-9kHz. So essentially dispersion is cone shape related. Distortion is determined by motor characteristics. But it all isn't that exciting, every serious brand offers seriously good mid(bass) speakers. First set your goals clear.
Next: are you in for metal cones? Zaph ZA14, Dayton RS150S, Visaton AL130(M), SB 15NBAC and others offer breakup-free operation up till 8-9kHz. So essentially dispersion is cone shape related. Distortion is determined by motor characteristics. But it all isn't that exciting, every serious brand offers seriously good mid(bass) speakers. First set your goals clear.
Good recipe! LR2 highpass 400Hz should be no prblem for 4-5" mid/fullranges. Very sweet sound crossed to 2x8" in one of my projects. Plenty of good mids available, no idea of recommendations here.
have a look at the volt VM752 3" textile dome successfully used in the OSMB between 400 - 3000 Hz:
Open Source Monkey Box
osmcdoc/osmc_paper.pdf at master * mbrennwa/osmcdoc * GitHub
Attachments
Be wary of these. We tried a 4” and they sucked.
But they did lead to Aiko which is a fantastic load for the FE108e∑ and FE103A family.
Now on their way to Toronto.
dave
Currently I'm using the Peerless Ne149 in a similar application and am very fond of its performance from 300-4,000 Hz.
Thanks for all the sugestions.
The Peerless Ne149 looks the most interesting so far, but a bit low on sensivity (not that it's unsable). Dayton Audio RS150-4 is resonating lower than 8K, it starts at 5K but a 3.5k higher order CR could work for this. Kartesian Wom120_vMS also is a good candidate.
SB15Bac starts to beam to soon (for this project i'm very picky on that). Fostex drivers are not my cup of tea i know, so not an option. The volt dome i looked at before but does not go low enough. Audax HM100Z i can't find.
I know the Alpair 70MS and some smaller Tangband drivers can work, but that is not really what i was looking for. They stay for the moment a last option.
But keep suggesting, and thanks all who did.
The Peerless Ne149 looks the most interesting so far, but a bit low on sensivity (not that it's unsable). Dayton Audio RS150-4 is resonating lower than 8K, it starts at 5K but a 3.5k higher order CR could work for this. Kartesian Wom120_vMS also is a good candidate.
SB15Bac starts to beam to soon (for this project i'm very picky on that). Fostex drivers are not my cup of tea i know, so not an option. The volt dome i looked at before but does not go low enough. Audax HM100Z i can't find.
I know the Alpair 70MS and some smaller Tangband drivers can work, but that is not really what i was looking for. They stay for the moment a last option.
But keep suggesting, and thanks all who did.
Limited experience, but i did enjoy them. first heards as a FR and then as a wide-range mid in a 3-way.
dave
Very interesting concept although once you decide to have a tweeter in your design the choice widens considerably.
A lot of these nice playing midwoofers are quite expensive though.
What about the SB10PGC21-4? Looks good on paper at least and doesn't cost a lot.
Edit: just realize its sensitivity is too low..
I tried to mate an alpair 7.3 with a seas 27tffnc because it's small and you can possibly position it nearer to the full range. Obvious problem with high xo frequencies is the spacing.
Still haven't found a configuration I'm happy with but then I do lack the experience for a good passive xo.
A lot of these nice playing midwoofers are quite expensive though.
What about the SB10PGC21-4? Looks good on paper at least and doesn't cost a lot.
Edit: just realize its sensitivity is too low..
I tried to mate an alpair 7.3 with a seas 27tffnc because it's small and you can possibly position it nearer to the full range. Obvious problem with high xo frequencies is the spacing.
Still haven't found a configuration I'm happy with but then I do lack the experience for a good passive xo.
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"Filler" driver ala B&O
This type of filter allows for a lower treble crossover point as well as a less efficient midrange driver (..along with that sort of "minimum phase" result.)
JohnK had a spreadsheet calculator for this - but it's tough to find now.
This type of filter allows for a lower treble crossover point as well as a less efficient midrange driver (..along with that sort of "minimum phase" result.)
JohnK had a spreadsheet calculator for this - but it's tough to find now.
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well, the wavelength of 3500Hz is 98mm (3.87"), so at 1/4th of the wavelength (what it sould be in theory) you have abotu 24.5mm to play with. As the Peerles NE149 (as example) is 149cm wide, it won't happen that they are within those rules. Even with lower crossover point that won't happen.
But it's not that much an issue if you listen from a distance. And as my design is ment as a standmount that will be listened from +/- 3m distance it's not something i try to archive, just keep them as close as possible. The tweeter i had in mind is the SB Acoustics SB19ST-C000-4, a small tweeter with good response and dispertion, but it needs to be crossovered above 2Khz at least and mine should be arround 3500hz. Woofer is still in consideration as i need to find out which one will work in a short MLTL style cabinet (if it's possible).
And that SB10 is too low in sensivity for me, i want to stay in the region of 88dB/2.83v and it's not even close. If that is not an issue for you, it can work in that kind of setup i think looking at the specs.
But it's not that much an issue if you listen from a distance. And as my design is ment as a standmount that will be listened from +/- 3m distance it's not something i try to archive, just keep them as close as possible. The tweeter i had in mind is the SB Acoustics SB19ST-C000-4, a small tweeter with good response and dispertion, but it needs to be crossovered above 2Khz at least and mine should be arround 3500hz. Woofer is still in consideration as i need to find out which one will work in a short MLTL style cabinet (if it's possible).
And that SB10 is too low in sensivity for me, i want to stay in the region of 88dB/2.83v and it's not even close. If that is not an issue for you, it can work in that kind of setup i think looking at the specs.
Hi,
the beaming is due to the size of the transducer, unless you use some waveguide. You will find your driver simply by choosing smallest one that can still deliver SPL to the low frequency you are planning. Prepare to relax the bandwidth requirement, or the SPL as compromise.
Depending what kind of beaming is too much, I'd be looking for 3" or smaller drivers. SS 10f/8424 seems to be about 100 degree nominal dispersion at the 3500Hz, not too narrow yet. NE149 with its 85cm2 SD has about bit less than 80 degrees nominal dispersion at 3500Hz which is not too narrow either but the point for caring about dispersion (beaming) on midrange speaker is to get directivities match at the crossover for smoothly changing response off-axis. If you care smooth off-axis the mid transducer needs to be very small to crossover to a tweeter at 3500Hz, or tweeter needs to have a waveguide.
I'm not sure if you should be afraid of crossovers, drivers outside their comfort zone seem to be nastier. At least crossover is able to fix the nastiness given the other aspects of design allows crossover to do it's job, fix what it can fix 😉 While the 400-3500Hz range would be nice goal to get done with one transducer I don't have any other options to offer for it than the small full range driver, all solutions seem to come with some issues. Problems like this are hard or impossible because of physics, size of sound and transducers. Still, many speakers manage to sound very good. Have fun!
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I have found Monacor MSH115 midrange to be very nice, smooth working range, just a small hint of extra air before it rolls off. It's Also fairly cheap and excellent value for money. Not many mids seem to make 10kHz as nicely (of the few I have heard)
Also Faital 4FE35 are very good, for little money. A little more sensitive, and not quite as smooth as the Monacor.
Also Faital 4FE35 are very good, for little money. A little more sensitive, and not quite as smooth as the Monacor.