Germanium is horrible as a preamp in my opinion. They have awful thermal noise, popping and clicking as they warm up. And they "hiss".
In a power amp stage they are more difficult to achieve thermal stability, and they turn into resistors above 100* C.
Their only saving grace is their low "on" voltage, which made them ideal for battery powered devices back before FET's.
In a power amp stage they are more difficult to achieve thermal stability, and they turn into resistors above 100* C.
Their only saving grace is their low "on" voltage, which made them ideal for battery powered devices back before FET's.
I've found that most of the noise in old tube equipment was due to the carbon comp resistors used. I've done a metal film change-out with astounding results! I've got an old Stereo 70 that has almost zero noise at full gain, before it sounded like pink noise. Early transistors were so impure that they also had lots of grit. Newer copies of old transistors dont seem to be as noisy(must be due to purer materials or such).
thoriated said:
BRAVO!!! I agree with you. But sometimes, just sometimes, tubes in all amplification stages isn't the best choice. In audio chain, we must carefully match ressonant signatures of all the parts and stages,... because multiplaying of similar characters (distortion) isn't clever idea.
Resonant signature
I have to apology. My English language is so, so….. Moreover, it’s hardly to me to explain exactly in this language.
Every (the same tip but different manufacturer) electronic component has his own resonant signature (his color of sound).
If you compare tubes like ECC83 and similar, Sylvania have very sweet sound, Ei with the body (more body than Sylvania but it isn’t sweet), 5751 GE sound a thinner and very delicate and open on the top, 6072 is capable to sound like some (good) silicon, some sounds tight, some very tuby,. …. .
It’s internal characteristic of the electronic component because of internal resonance. It comes into sound because of inductivity low of physic. Valves has often more natural resonant signature than silicon transistors because silicon have effect like some ceramic capacitors (grainy sound).
Resonant signature have also resistors, capacitors,…. and depend on internal characteristic (a way how we made some electronic component). If we look on internal design of 12AX7 tubes (like all the tubes), from manufacturer to manufacturer are visually different. Because of this, differences are into sound, because of different mechanical resonant characteristic, which is the source of (inductivity) its own characteristic in sound. Those (all the electronic components) “generate” own harmonics into sound, have own distortion in the sound, have own kind of non linearity,…
For me is something unusual how technical (electro technical) way is here to build DIY projects. Even in solid state amplifications. In the solid state amplifications resonant signature of the component (transistors) is as important like in world of vacuum tubes. It’s not everything on electronic design. Are we equipment builder or sound neutrality builder? It’s important to made high tech or high musicality?
It is important for DIY maker, to do some (amplification) stages with as much is possible to have natural internal resonant signature, and that this signature isn’t multiplied cross amplification stages. It’s important to made different (but naturally sounding) resonant signatures in every stage (al low as his own character is possible). It’s have nothing with he High End, if we make amplifier with the same type (same type and same manufacturer) cross the amplification stages.
But, have we experience with resonant signatures of all the components on the market?
Have this commercially thinking manufacturers?
till said:
I have to apology. My English language is so, so….. Moreover, it’s hardly to me to explain exactly in this language.
Every (the same tip but different manufacturer) electronic component has his own resonant signature (his color of sound).
If you compare tubes like ECC83 and similar, Sylvania have very sweet sound, Ei with the body (more body than Sylvania but it isn’t sweet), 5751 GE sound a thinner and very delicate and open on the top, 6072 is capable to sound like some (good) silicon, some sounds tight, some very tuby,. …. .
It’s internal characteristic of the electronic component because of internal resonance. It comes into sound because of inductivity low of physic. Valves has often more natural resonant signature than silicon transistors because silicon have effect like some ceramic capacitors (grainy sound).
Resonant signature have also resistors, capacitors,…. and depend on internal characteristic (a way how we made some electronic component). If we look on internal design of 12AX7 tubes (like all the tubes), from manufacturer to manufacturer are visually different. Because of this, differences are into sound, because of different mechanical resonant characteristic, which is the source of (inductivity) its own characteristic in sound. Those (all the electronic components) “generate” own harmonics into sound, have own distortion in the sound, have own kind of non linearity,…
For me is something unusual how technical (electro technical) way is here to build DIY projects. Even in solid state amplifications. In the solid state amplifications resonant signature of the component (transistors) is as important like in world of vacuum tubes. It’s not everything on electronic design. Are we equipment builder or sound neutrality builder? It’s important to made high tech or high musicality?
It is important for DIY maker, to do some (amplification) stages with as much is possible to have natural internal resonant signature, and that this signature isn’t multiplied cross amplification stages. It’s important to made different (but naturally sounding) resonant signatures in every stage (al low as his own character is possible). It’s have nothing with he High End, if we make amplifier with the same type (same type and same manufacturer) cross the amplification stages.
But, have we experience with resonant signatures of all the components on the market?
Have this commercially thinking manufacturers?
resonance
Electrotechnical signal (it cares music), generate mechanical resonance, but this mechanical resonance depend on mechanical design (of tubes, capacitors,...) and influence back (cros the inductrion) into electronical signal.
But signature isnt only mechanicaly.....
Evey capacitor plays (listen with stetoscope) when we play music, also every ouput transformer, every cable, transistor. If you want to hear music, loudspeakers isnt neccessary
Here we have another efects like acoustic memory of dielectric, parasite capacitivity (transistors,...). Everything of this has influence on the characteristical sound of electronic part. Every electronic part have influence on sound. Electonic Signature of transistors is similar like sound of the glass, cheramic,..... and isn't musical.
If you hear loudspeaker driver made from Kevlar, Poliprophilene, metal or paper (cones) every of those drivers sound diferent (with the same signal). Ti's depent on internal resonanrt signature of the component (of the resonant signature of the cones in this example)
So, the system way to build electronic equipment is neccessary for the High End.
Electrotechnical signal (it cares music), generate mechanical resonance, but this mechanical resonance depend on mechanical design (of tubes, capacitors,...) and influence back (cros the inductrion) into electronical signal.
But signature isnt only mechanicaly.....
Evey capacitor plays (listen with stetoscope) when we play music, also every ouput transformer, every cable, transistor. If you want to hear music, loudspeakers isnt neccessary
Here we have another efects like acoustic memory of dielectric, parasite capacitivity (transistors,...). Everything of this has influence on the characteristical sound of electronic part. Every electronic part have influence on sound. Electonic Signature of transistors is similar like sound of the glass, cheramic,..... and isn't musical.
If you hear loudspeaker driver made from Kevlar, Poliprophilene, metal or paper (cones) every of those drivers sound diferent (with the same signal). Ti's depent on internal resonanrt signature of the component (of the resonant signature of the cones in this example)
So, the system way to build electronic equipment is neccessary for the High End.
All you said Bojan makes sense to me.
I face something alike many times, but i never could put in words the clear way you told us.
The same way some tubes are more "microphonic" than others, the way the can vibrate and oscilate with heavy sound touching its inside extrutures that vibrates a lot. And those ressonances of course, depends of the lenghs, the materials and the fixing methods and gaps.
Also i perceive that an electric machine to shake Milk in my house make one interesting modulating noise in mains.... this noise put whole volume impression up, i could not measure with a multimeter, i will put it on a scope. When the electrical motor start to run, you have an idea of 6 decibels loudness increase!... and sometimes my daugther asked me to reduce volume.... so, 4 rooms distance, doors closed because she studie whole time to prepare to University Challenge tests!, so, if she perceive increase is because sound is beeing modulated by noise... this way, some noise can add a special characteristic in the sound too, this time was volume perceived, i do not measure yet!
Related to Instruments, measurements, i think they are beautifull and usefful, a needed tool to verify or observe some problem.
But i never saw a Distortion Meter going together one Scope to shopping to buy and sound amplifier!
This way, better to do equipment for our ears, because not only one, but two goes together, and always, the one that buy an amplifier, also one man or other can go shopping with their instruments too....but i am sure the mankind will decide, and, sometimes to the one measure bad!
This do not avoid the need of enginnering, without this knowledge nothing good can be donne... but we cannot let for meters the decisions, we are life material, not solid state.
Very happy to meet your person, i like your brain very much.
Carlos
I face something alike many times, but i never could put in words the clear way you told us.
The same way some tubes are more "microphonic" than others, the way the can vibrate and oscilate with heavy sound touching its inside extrutures that vibrates a lot. And those ressonances of course, depends of the lenghs, the materials and the fixing methods and gaps.
Also i perceive that an electric machine to shake Milk in my house make one interesting modulating noise in mains.... this noise put whole volume impression up, i could not measure with a multimeter, i will put it on a scope. When the electrical motor start to run, you have an idea of 6 decibels loudness increase!... and sometimes my daugther asked me to reduce volume.... so, 4 rooms distance, doors closed because she studie whole time to prepare to University Challenge tests!, so, if she perceive increase is because sound is beeing modulated by noise... this way, some noise can add a special characteristic in the sound too, this time was volume perceived, i do not measure yet!
Related to Instruments, measurements, i think they are beautifull and usefful, a needed tool to verify or observe some problem.
But i never saw a Distortion Meter going together one Scope to shopping to buy and sound amplifier!
This way, better to do equipment for our ears, because not only one, but two goes together, and always, the one that buy an amplifier, also one man or other can go shopping with their instruments too....but i am sure the mankind will decide, and, sometimes to the one measure bad!
This do not avoid the need of enginnering, without this knowledge nothing good can be donne... but we cannot let for meters the decisions, we are life material, not solid state.
Very happy to meet your person, i like your brain very much.
Carlos
to me it sound more like a alchemy theorem from the middle ages. Like: "every material has its karma".
I think its true you can vary sound by chage a device, but unless we do UHF modulation or mix our NF with very high freq. not caused by resonan signature of the chips´s material. Transfer funktion and properties like capacitance may have more influence.
The resonant signature - theorem sound to me like one of those ideas marketing people who do not understand anything but some dollar -signs light up in their eyes usually find and spread.
We are back on: lay a stone on your amp for good sound.
btw, i have some 10 tons of nice audiophile stones laying on my ground, €12 each, no paypal, cash only....
I think its true you can vary sound by chage a device, but unless we do UHF modulation or mix our NF with very high freq. not caused by resonan signature of the chips´s material. Transfer funktion and properties like capacitance may have more influence.
The resonant signature - theorem sound to me like one of those ideas marketing people who do not understand anything but some dollar -signs light up in their eyes usually find and spread.
We are back on: lay a stone on your amp for good sound.
btw, i have some 10 tons of nice audiophile stones laying on my ground, €12 each, no paypal, cash only....
Dear Bojan,
1) Have you ever built an amp based on germanium transistors that sounded better than well designed silicon transistor amp?
2) If yes, can you display the schematics?
3) Can you tell us which of the germanium vs. silicon amps you have compared?
Please be so kind and do not point to that wonderful sound of 40 years old beach AM receivers with germanium transistors. I mean contemporary comparison.
Pavel
1) Have you ever built an amp based on germanium transistors that sounded better than well designed silicon transistor amp?
2) If yes, can you display the schematics?
3) Can you tell us which of the germanium vs. silicon amps you have compared?
Please be so kind and do not point to that wonderful sound of 40 years old beach AM receivers with germanium transistors. I mean contemporary comparison.
Pavel
Re: All you said Bojan makes sense to me.
Thank You very much for Your comment. I agree with your comments about influences into (an in the) sound in 100%. Something very interesting to me you told us about your experiment at your home.
I'm very happy to meet some inteligent person as you are - also.
I’m so sorry to don’t know English language on your level. It’s a lot of this on www.hiendfi.com - but only on Slovenian side of page. We have to translate this into English in the future.
destroyer X said:
Thank You very much for Your comment. I agree with your comments about influences into (an in the) sound in 100%. Something very interesting to me you told us about your experiment at your home.
I'm very happy to meet some inteligent person as you are - also.
I’m so sorry to don’t know English language on your level. It’s a lot of this on www.hiendfi.com - but only on Slovenian side of page. We have to translate this into English in the future.
Jaka Racman said:
In general.... YES, but parasitic inductances and capacitances also have influence on mechanical (reverse) source of (electric efect) resonant signature. Resonant signature is electric term, but with influences from mechanic source. It's depent in 99% on mechanical design. It's like electronic (RING) loop. Electronical signal influence on mechanik, but mechanical character have influence back into electronical signal. Some mocrophonies are (often, not always) also something like resonant signature...
till said:
Yes, its true. Every material has its karma. Do you tray to shave (in the morning) with something from wood? In this case, steel have better karma
Or you think ist the same if you are diving a car with rubber wheel or you think its the same if you take any material?Do you ever tray to replace on valve (like Sovtek 12AX7) with other (like 12AX7 Ei) in the same (good) valve preamp? Do you ever tray to replace some poliprophilene cone in loudspeaker with paper? If not, you have long way to know what High End is
sorry, i never owned a polypropylene speaker, only paper and beryllium.
als i never owned that tubes, only mosfet amps.
you knife has nothing to do with karma, but with the kind of forces holding the molekules or fibres the material consists of together. Those determinate if you can make the edge of the piece of material sharp enough to shave (i never do in the morning, bad karma those mornings)
all this "proofs" you shopw for your resonant signature theorem are of topic and unrelated.
For the speaker cone material internal damping will be more important as resonants. "damping signature" could be influenced by many thing.
What about the germanium and the resonants it causes on NF? propagation of solitone waves on the die ? transistor as mechanical filter? do we talk gigaherz here?
what i read from you is called "half knowlege" in my country.
you watch something, and because you lack knowledge you draw some wrong conclusions, diy your own science island, and try to spread this as truth. But be asured, may famous people of this board, especially from the chipamp crowd, do so.
als i never owned that tubes, only mosfet amps.
you knife has nothing to do with karma, but with the kind of forces holding the molekules or fibres the material consists of together. Those determinate if you can make the edge of the piece of material sharp enough to shave (i never do in the morning, bad karma those mornings)
all this "proofs" you shopw for your resonant signature theorem are of topic and unrelated.
For the speaker cone material internal damping will be more important as resonants. "damping signature" could be influenced by many thing.
What about the germanium and the resonants it causes on NF? propagation of solitone waves on the die ? transistor as mechanical filter? do we talk gigaherz here?
what i read from you is called "half knowlege" in my country.
you watch something, and because you lack knowledge you draw some wrong conclusions, diy your own science island, and try to spread this as truth. But be asured, may famous people of this board, especially from the chipamp crowd, do so.
PMA said:
1 – Yes, of course. We have experience with. I’m electronic professional. ED Electronic Design ltd is very successful electronic engineering (and manufacturer). We work in more than 30 countries in the World (professional electronic) and are exclusively supplier for some multinational companies (some of the biggest in the World). Our firm have some technologies like only (no one) in the World. I am owner of this firm, High End is mostly our hobby (a little manufacture named Hajdinjak Labs)
2 - We start to produce some amps on PCB basis also like serial production (first example we’ll se in the autumn this year). One of this (also like DIY project) will be amp with the name Germanium. Some of the prototypes play in some studios in Europe (Slovenia, Germany, Austria,…) in past months. We compare this with everything (it’ll be incorrect to write names on this forum). I suggest you read page http://www.hiendfi.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=62
If we play in the Shows in Germany (Frankfurt), Ljubljana, Zagreb,… always is the same,…. but a write this only because you ask me about experience with other products.
3 – Germanium (HL amp) in DIY version, we’ll sell with custom made OP AMP (discrete construction in epoxy cases) based on germanuim - HL production of OP AMP, because of business. You have to understand us, that it’s business and it’s impossible to shows some designs in public. No one HL design (NO ONE) with which we made serial products isn’t for the public. But in the next months, you’ll see some interesting (germanium based) circuits on www.hiendfi.com Until than I hope to see some interesting designs from the audiophiles in this site also. You’ll see also serial DIY germanium based project on the web but with HL (Hajdinjak Labs) germanium based OP AMP.
We (ED) have enough big business (some of the biggest export companies around). High End audio is our love. We do this, because we hardly listen this what you know under High End audio market.
till said:
About karma. It’s a JOKE, like your answer (it’s on the same, primitive level).
About “damping signature”. You are right. It’s nothing to do with our question.
Resonant signature isn’t nothing new for Americans. You have plenty of this in Absolute Sound in the past from owner of WAC (Dr. of physic scientist)
Everything you hear causes on NF
About knowledge in your country and opinion about HL electronic in Germany:
Image HIFI, 6/2000, Nr 36, pages 54, 55 and 109. Jubal / Hajdinjak Laboratories (made for Pear audio), SOME OF THE BEST TEST REVUEVS IN THE GERMANY EVER.
(( Hope other will understand this:
-Bezüglich Raumbbildung und Durchsichlichkeit legt der Jubal die Messlate sogar sehr weit oben auf, dort, wo sich viel teuere Konkurenz tummelt – Respekt.
- Ein klarer Kandidat für den Geheimtipp-Status.
- Marottenfreier Musikant, harmoniert dank Autobias mit vielen Röhrentypen, feiner Rhytmus, viel Raum und fast Raketenschub. ))
Revuewer is one of the most respected german rewuevers Roland Kraft.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.