I think this would be a very cool speaker but I hear you about the cost. They're already very expensive for a guy like me. Paying more for a pair of speakers than a 50" flat screen just isn't in the budget no matter how good they sound. I can diy some half assed speakers, but I can't do the tv so it got bought and the speakers will have to stay on the dream list.
I'd happily trade down to a 37in and spend the extra money on better speakers. It always amazes me that people spend $2000 on a TV, then drop $200 on speakers. I picked up a 37" LCD at ecost for $600 and it looks fantastic.
Ha, my TV is smaller than my computer screen, and its so old it doesnt even have a remote ... well, I have remote through my digital receiver 🙂
I get your point about the good tv/crappy speakers problem, but (and I mean no offense to Dr Geddes here) doesn't it seem like there's a heck of a lot more technology and components that go into making a big plasma tv than a pair of speakers? I realize Earl's prices are set by the small production numbers he's currently dealing with but speakers have never seemed like they should cost thousands of dollars to me, there's just not that much in there. My motorcycle cost less than a pair of these speakers and that's a lot of material and a lot of molds and casting.
If you're priced out, you're not in Dr. Geddes' market segment.
Google prices for Meyer's smaller cabs the size of the Abbeys and you'll see what I mean.
Google prices for Meyer's smaller cabs the size of the Abbeys and you'll see what I mean.
I guess when it comes to pricing it all depends on your point of view. I see these kits as an incredible value. The wave guide is hand made to extremely tight tolerances. Now think about the intellectual property, how many people in the world can intellectually create solutions to the problems that Dr. Geddes is working on? How many of those people can also craft and market that solution? These numbers start to get very small very quickly.
I just hope Dr. Geddes continues to do what he does and has great success and in time I hope to get a kit. I also hope he is enjoying this journey.
Cheers,
Robert
I just hope Dr. Geddes continues to do what he does and has great success and in time I hope to get a kit. I also hope he is enjoying this journey.
Cheers,
Robert
Patrick Bateman said:
I'm with you there, I have a 37in myself, but decent speakers.
Last night a neighbor invited us over to watch a TV show on her new $2500 52" LCD which I wall mounted for her. Not only was the sound from the TV speakers unbearable on what is a strongly music based show, but she had recorded it into her DVR on the low-def channel when she receives the same program in HD on another channel.
Needless to say the 52" screen made low-def look dreadful.
I was glad to get home and watch another show on my tiny 37"
screen in hi-def with decent sound. Untill I can afford a projector and some of Earl's speakers it will have to do.🙂
Audio and video are a pair and both have to be right. One without the other degrades both. I think that my theater is proof of that.
People can "see" improvements in video, but most can't "hear" the same in the audio system however. But in both cases flashy is a seller and "accurate" falls by the wayside. Its the Kodachrome thing all over again. We, as consumers, have been duped into a belief that "its what we like" that counts and "what we like" is what the mass marketers tell us we like.
As to speaker costs, its all about volume. In the kinds of volumes that TV's sell in, I could make and sell, at a decent profit, a very competant Nathan for about $200 a pair. In the volumes that I sell, $1200 is barely making anything. Its volume, volume, volume.
And at $1200 ($2000 as finsihed systems) they are very far from the most expensive speakers out there. Ask yourself how they justify those!? My speakers ARE a bargin in the vogue hi-end world.
People can "see" improvements in video, but most can't "hear" the same in the audio system however. But in both cases flashy is a seller and "accurate" falls by the wayside. Its the Kodachrome thing all over again. We, as consumers, have been duped into a belief that "its what we like" that counts and "what we like" is what the mass marketers tell us we like.
As to speaker costs, its all about volume. In the kinds of volumes that TV's sell in, I could make and sell, at a decent profit, a very competant Nathan for about $200 a pair. In the volumes that I sell, $1200 is barely making anything. Its volume, volume, volume.
And at $1200 ($2000 as finsihed systems) they are very far from the most expensive speakers out there. Ask yourself how they justify those!? My speakers ARE a bargin in the vogue hi-end world.
poptart said:
I have touble believing that, unless its used. A new Harley costs more than my car - even new. Thats not value.
But you are right, speakers should not be that expensive and they are not in huge volumes (I know I worked in car audio). But there is virtually no demand for sound quality and thats makes it rare. Rare makes it expensive.
gedlee said:
My house is in a semi rural-area. There are six or eight houses near me, but each is separated by fairly large lots. The other night I was listening to "New York" by Lou Reed on the Summas, when it hit me that I might be keeping the neighbors up. And it was such an odd realization, because I don't have subwoofers (yet*), and there's not a lot of low end on that recording. But the Summas can be played at such enormous volume levels without fatigue, I've realized that I better be careful about playing them late!
In the realm of the high end there are affordable speakers which sound great at modest volume levels (Sonus Faber, Totem, Magnepan, etc.) There aren't too many affordable speakers that can hit high SPLs (the Horn Shoppe Horn comes to mind.)
So if you want excellent sound, AND dynamics for days, you're getting into the territory of speakers that cost half as much as a house. We're talking $70,000.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifishow99/sept24a.htm
In fact, if I were the owner of a company like Avant Garde, I would simply license the Summa's technology, and SELL IT for $70,000. They have the dealer network and the global connections to sell a megabuck speaker. I've personally heard the trios half a dozen times, and the Summas sound a LOT better. The Trios have spectacular slam and dynamics, and they can sound very delicate at the same time. But like every other horn I've heard, they get fatiguing quickly. I couldn't imagine listening to them at high SPLs for more than five minutes. (Having said that, they DO sound spectacular if you're cautious with the volume knob, which is likely the reason they're so often paired with flea-powered tube amps.)
To make a long story short, the only speakers which I've heard that were in the same class cost a minimum of $50,000. These speakers are just a ridiculous bargain.
If this were the end of a Stereophile review, this is the part where I'd say "I bought the review samples." (Actually I'm not a reviewer though, just a happy owner of the Summas.)
* see here for my attempts at making a sub : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=114340&goto=newpost
Patrick
Thanks.
People who buy hi-end speakers like Avante-Garde are buying fashion not sound. It's like a purse which in Bangkok costs about $12 on the street for something that costs $250 or more here at the mall. It's the same bag. It's the fashion and the "brand" mystique that makes the difference.
And now, companies like Avante-Garde could never buy (or use) my technology because that would be an admission that they missed something. When technology really doesn't have much effect on the "perception" of the end product, it ceases to have any value.
Could you imagine Avante-Garde making a OS waveguide
"You mean its NOT Tractrix?!! But you said ..."
Thanks.
People who buy hi-end speakers like Avante-Garde are buying fashion not sound. It's like a purse which in Bangkok costs about $12 on the street for something that costs $250 or more here at the mall. It's the same bag. It's the fashion and the "brand" mystique that makes the difference.
And now, companies like Avante-Garde could never buy (or use) my technology because that would be an admission that they missed something. When technology really doesn't have much effect on the "perception" of the end product, it ceases to have any value.
Could you imagine Avante-Garde making a OS waveguide
"You mean its NOT Tractrix?!! But you said ..."a little bit off topic I guess, but I've never liked the sound of the Avante Garde speakers. They have all had a somewhat effortless sound, yes, but they have also all sounded colored to me. I have also thought that the largest speakers they make sounded thin, oddly enough.
As for the comparison with Dr. Geddes speakers, I think the only thing they have in common is efficiency.
The most effortless speakers I have ever heard, which have all the qualities that everyone keeps saying the Suma's have were the JBL Everest's (Newest version). They sounded impressively full, smooth, and fatigue free. The only thing I didn't like about them was that the soundstage seemed a bit vague at times, was magnified (instruments seemed bigger than they would be in real life), and was too low (This was a speaker setup problem).
I'm hopeful that when I do get my Abbey12 kit built, they will give me in my listening room what I heard from those JBL's, and with a better sound stage. Based on the specs I doubt they will have the bass, but Dr. Geddes has already addressed this issue, he feels that the mains don't need bass below 100hz or so, as the subwoofers will be dealing with this anyway.
I hope these aren't too much fun to listen to loud, my neighbor is attached to my house. I live in a duplex, so if I listen too loud, I'm quite certain they will hear me. A new neighbor is moving in as we speak, and the old one listened to bad gangster rap at what sounded like very high levels, but I was told by the land lord they were not as loud as one would think. It always concerned me that they could hear my music and movies, but I never had any complaints. I can only imagine what the cops would say if they walked in for a noise complaint and saw my stereo. One rack with nothing but amplifiers, two large subwoofers, a room full of speakers, and a 100" projection system. While there is nothing unusual about this for you guys, I don't think its common for everyone else to see.
As for the comparison with Dr. Geddes speakers, I think the only thing they have in common is efficiency.
The most effortless speakers I have ever heard, which have all the qualities that everyone keeps saying the Suma's have were the JBL Everest's (Newest version). They sounded impressively full, smooth, and fatigue free. The only thing I didn't like about them was that the soundstage seemed a bit vague at times, was magnified (instruments seemed bigger than they would be in real life), and was too low (This was a speaker setup problem).
I'm hopeful that when I do get my Abbey12 kit built, they will give me in my listening room what I heard from those JBL's, and with a better sound stage. Based on the specs I doubt they will have the bass, but Dr. Geddes has already addressed this issue, he feels that the mains don't need bass below 100hz or so, as the subwoofers will be dealing with this anyway.
I hope these aren't too much fun to listen to loud, my neighbor is attached to my house. I live in a duplex, so if I listen too loud, I'm quite certain they will hear me. A new neighbor is moving in as we speak, and the old one listened to bad gangster rap at what sounded like very high levels, but I was told by the land lord they were not as loud as one would think. It always concerned me that they could hear my music and movies, but I never had any complaints. I can only imagine what the cops would say if they walked in for a noise complaint and saw my stereo. One rack with nothing but amplifiers, two large subwoofers, a room full of speakers, and a 100" projection system. While there is nothing unusual about this for you guys, I don't think its common for everyone else to see.
It's a real issue. I don't think *anyone* can appreciate how loud these things can get. We're talking about a speaker which just doesn't compress, it doesn't get harsh, it doesn't get nasty at high volumes.
Just for laughs I hooked up the Summas to a tube amp, curious if a set of revealing speakers would make it easy to tell the difference between amps. After a day of this, I went back to solid state, because these speakers just cry out to be played LOUD, and the tube amp didn't have enough watts.
I'm sitting here listening to them, trying to explain how loud they like to be played, and I'm really at a loss for words. It's one of those things you have to hear to believe. Once you own a set of these you're really going to re-evaluate what a "reasonable listening level" is. Once you own a speaker where every last form of distortion and compression has been removed from the playback equation, you'll understand.
Just for laughs I hooked up the Summas to a tube amp, curious if a set of revealing speakers would make it easy to tell the difference between amps. After a day of this, I went back to solid state, because these speakers just cry out to be played LOUD, and the tube amp didn't have enough watts.
I'm sitting here listening to them, trying to explain how loud they like to be played, and I'm really at a loss for words. It's one of those things you have to hear to believe. Once you own a set of these you're really going to re-evaluate what a "reasonable listening level" is. Once you own a speaker where every last form of distortion and compression has been removed from the playback equation, you'll understand.
Is it possible to buy the 15'' version waveguid and XO parts? I remember reading that it was a better speaker than the 12'' version but bc of production costs or shipping costs it is no longer offered.
I have no plans to do a 15" version kit - i.e. the full Summa. Its way too hard to build the fiberglass enclosure. I do still make these, but at a price that makes sense for me.
I am having several 15" waveguides made, which I will sell, but I have no crossover for them. They are $400 each.
The largest speaker that I have tooling for as a kit is the Abbey12.
You just can't imagine how fast the costs go up moving from 12" to 15". I just do not see this as a viable kit. It would have to be $2000 or more (Each!) and quite honestly, you'd be better off just buying the Summa.
I am having several 15" waveguides made, which I will sell, but I have no crossover for them. They are $400 each.
The largest speaker that I have tooling for as a kit is the Abbey12.
You just can't imagine how fast the costs go up moving from 12" to 15". I just do not see this as a viable kit. It would have to be $2000 or more (Each!) and quite honestly, you'd be better off just buying the Summa.
pjpoes said:
I liked that speaker too, I just couldn't understand (or afford) the price.
Maybe 100 Hz. is a bit high, The Abbey12 should have a -6dB point at about 60-70 Hz. Certainly NOT full range, but some bass. They will "need a sub or two", but even if they went down to 30 Hz. they'd still "need a sub or two". Thats the point.
It will be next summer before I will be able to purchase them, but I would be interested in the 15'' waveguide. If purchased, would you provide details of how to make the XO? If I wanted to, where would i buy the Summa?
pjpoes said:
I agree that there are better sounding speakers. The Avant Gardes certainly do a few things right. I can't stand the sound of the cheap ones, I can't recall the name. They have one that's a glorified coax that has me running out of the room every time I've listened to it.
I brought up the Avant Gardes because they're certainly the most accessible audiophile horn. They've been demonstrated year after year at CES, which is attended by thousands of people. JBL has some great stuff, but I haven't got a clue where you could audition it. I bought my prosound JBLs at a musician's store, which isn't set up for critical listening at all.
I've tried the Summas in two houses. I hate to say it, but they sounded better in the basement of my old house than in the living room of my new house. In the old house I had them set up in a tiny room, in the exact same spot where I'd been listening to my JBLs for years. In the same spot, the difference in soundstage was night and day.
In my new house they're in a living room, which is easily twice the square footage. Due to the high ceilings, the volume of the room is probably 4x as much as the old basement living room.
I've noticed that the soundstage has suffered in the new location, and the need for a subwoofer is apparent.
This isn't a knock on the Summa - I really need to get them dialed in.
The reason that I posted this message is that the Summa sounded FANTASTIC in a tiny little basement listening room. So if some of you guys have been on the fence, wondering if they're too big for your room, keep that in mind. I wouldn't have expected them to work so well in such a small room - but they did.
OTOH, if you're putting them in a big room, you'll probably need a sub I'm afraid.