Chris8sirhC said:
You have to buy the Summa from me.
As to the crossover the best that I could do is give you a schematic of the one in the Summa. But then you have to use those exact drivers and the cabinet size and shape is a factor. Otherwise its a custom crossover and those take me a lot of time to do.
Patrick Bateman said:
Sounds like a setup issue. Are the speakers well away from diffracting surfaces? Is the wall behind them well damped? Are they properly toed in? These are things that I have found make a difference.
Bah, everyone needs a subwoofer or three.
By the way, there are two everests.
that is the original, and I've never heard these. I can't speak to how good they are, but I know they were well regarded at the time
these are what I heard, and were quite impressive. Agreed on the price though. I think they justify the price with the quality of parts and complexity of design. They use DC biased crossovers (I'm not saying thats a good thing, but it adds expense), very complex crossovers with a whole lot of parts, beryllium compression drivers, and a very well finished cabinet of pretty complex construction. Lets just say I wanted to create the basic design using parts I could readily buy, I would probably have to use TAD drivers to get the Beryllium compression drivers, so figure three thousand per speaker, around 6 total. Then the woofers, JBL doesn't sell those, but for the sake of argument, we will say they are 600 each. Thats 2400 total in woofers. I would then figure, even with bottom of the line parts, around 500 for the crossovers. I'm already at 10 grand in parts, not including the enclosure, which I'm sure would cost me 3-4 thousand to have made, and would be beyond my ability to make.
I had actually thought about the idea of buying another set of the 12" horns from Dr. Geddes and trying to make a sort of quasi-everest, quasi-summa thing. Something that used dual woofers arranged in the same basic 2.5 manner, and adding a super tweeter to extend the top end past 20khz. However in the end I decided that was a lot of extra expense, complexity, and Dr. Geddes would probably no longer acknowledge my existence for butchering his design.
By the way, there are two everests.
that is the original, and I've never heard these. I can't speak to how good they are, but I know they were well regarded at the time
these are what I heard, and were quite impressive. Agreed on the price though. I think they justify the price with the quality of parts and complexity of design. They use DC biased crossovers (I'm not saying thats a good thing, but it adds expense), very complex crossovers with a whole lot of parts, beryllium compression drivers, and a very well finished cabinet of pretty complex construction. Lets just say I wanted to create the basic design using parts I could readily buy, I would probably have to use TAD drivers to get the Beryllium compression drivers, so figure three thousand per speaker, around 6 total. Then the woofers, JBL doesn't sell those, but for the sake of argument, we will say they are 600 each. Thats 2400 total in woofers. I would then figure, even with bottom of the line parts, around 500 for the crossovers. I'm already at 10 grand in parts, not including the enclosure, which I'm sure would cost me 3-4 thousand to have made, and would be beyond my ability to make.
I had actually thought about the idea of buying another set of the 12" horns from Dr. Geddes and trying to make a sort of quasi-everest, quasi-summa thing. Something that used dual woofers arranged in the same basic 2.5 manner, and adding a super tweeter to extend the top end past 20khz. However in the end I decided that was a lot of extra expense, complexity, and Dr. Geddes would probably no longer acknowledge my existence for butchering his design.
gedlee said:
I have them about four feet out into the room. Getting them away from the sidewalls is a real problem, as the room isn't very wide. I have them almost butted up against the side walls. I tried them closer together, but found that the image was too narrow.
I'm using a very aggressive toe-in; it appears to make the soundstage wider thanks to reflections off the opposite wall.
One thing I might try is to simply bring them closer to the couch. In the previous room they were about five feet away; in the current room they're almost ten feet away.
Basically what I'd like to hear is a better image in the *center* of the soundstage. In the previous room it was more solid, now the image is more diffuse in the new room. I'm hoping the distance makes a difference.
Another big difference in the two rooms is the construction. The old house had a listening room in a concrete basement. So the walls were solid as rock. The new house has wood floors and *eleven* windows.
With the windows open the soundstage changes dramatically (for the better.)
I just listened to these at the Hi End Hifi show here today, they were screeching to my old ears, certain parts of the music did not sound coherent, I think about 30 seconds was what I could take; maybe most people call this kind of sound exciting. From Earl's design, I would judge they will sound much more pleasant than the Everest.pjpoes said:Bah, everyone needs a subwoofer or three.
By the way, there are two everests.
...
these are what I heard, and were quite impressive. Agreed on the price though. I think they justify the price with the quality of parts and complexity of design. They use DC biased crossovers (I'm not saying thats a good thing, but it adds expense), very complex crossovers with a whole lot of parts, beryllium compression drivers, and a very well finished cabinet of pretty complex construction. Lets just say I wanted to create the basic design using parts I could readily buy, I would probably have to use TAD drivers to get the Beryllium compression drivers, so figure three thousand per speaker, around 6 total. Then the woofers, JBL doesn't sell those, but for the sake of argument, we will say they are 600 each. Thats 2400 total in woofers. I would then figure, even with bottom of the line parts, around 500 for the crossovers. I'm already at 10 grand in parts, not including the enclosure, which I'm sure would cost me 3-4 thousand to have made, and would be beyond my ability to make.
I had actually thought about the idea of buying another set of the 12" horns from Dr. Geddes and trying to make a sort of quasi-everest, quasi-summa thing. Something that used dual woofers arranged in the same basic 2.5 manner, and adding a super tweeter to extend the top end past 20khz. However in the end I decided that was a lot of extra expense, complexity, and Dr. Geddes would probably no longer acknowledge my existence for butchering his design.
Patrick Bateman said:
Can you send me a room sketch with speaker locations and windows, doors, etc.?
I understand, but it also means double the capacitors. It adds expense, no matter how you look at it. Given that they used all high voltage polypropylene capacitors, it would further add to the expense.
I'm surprised Soongc found them screechy. I would wonder about setup and associated equipment, as that really was not my experience with them at all. I don't like screechy speakers, and generally feel pretty sensitive to such designs. One reason why I have stayed away from horns is just that, but these surprised me as not being bright or screechy. I didn't hear that at a show but in an actual purpose built listening/demo room, so maybe that made a difference, I don't know.
I'm surprised Soongc found them screechy. I would wonder about setup and associated equipment, as that really was not my experience with them at all. I don't like screechy speakers, and generally feel pretty sensitive to such designs. One reason why I have stayed away from horns is just that, but these surprised me as not being bright or screechy. I didn't hear that at a show but in an actual purpose built listening/demo room, so maybe that made a difference, I don't know.
With Harmon's buying power, it wouldn't be much of an issue in speakers of that price.pjpoes said:
pjpoes said:
The 1500al from JBL, the alnico woofers, are ~$1800 each and are available from Japan, along with the compression mid ($1360 each), and supertweeter ($4535 each).
http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/index.html
That is ~10k per speaker without R+D, shipping, time, or a cool box.
Chris
Mine is used (and almost 40 years old at that) but Honda's cruiser for new riders (the rebel) costs $3000 brand new and most of the other companies have a bike in that price range too. Kawasaki's ninja 250 is very popular at $3500, I think it may actually be their best selling bike. Harleys are just another case of paying for fashion. It does take a lot of metal to make to make a bike 300 pounds heavier than other bikes that go just as fast but mostly you're paying for the image.
Anyways, back on topic I do appreciate how much of the work is being done by hand and I wasn't implying that you were one of those crazy speaker companies with $10,000 systems.
pjpoes said:Bah, everyone needs a subwoofer or three.
By the way, there are two everests.
that is the original, and I've never heard these. I can't speak to how good they are, but I know they were well regarded at the time
The Summas, when properly toed in, do exactly what the Everest horn was intended to do. It falls off gradually from one side to the other with the far side being the greater response. Don Keele wanted to do this with an asymmetric pattern and I didn't see why it had to be asymmetric. (Mine is symmetric about the axis, but when the axis is at 22° then its asymmetric about the centerline, so the response falls from one side to the other at a constant distance.) We were both after the exact same thing. I hope mine lasts longer than his did.
chrismercurio said:
Or the crossover, don't underestimate the cost of a crossover. You don't have to use expensive esoteric parts to spend a lot on a crossover. My last speaker project used all polypropylene capacitors, but were mostly surplus and nothing fancy, the inductors were all 20 gauge air core or steel laminate (the cheapest I could get), and 1 mills resistor. The total of 4 inductors and 4 capacitors per speaker still cost around 50 dollars a speaker, or 100 dollars total for the crossovers of a basic inexpensive 2-way design. Now make it a 3.5 way design and increase the inductors to 14 gauge and you can easily multiply that number by 5.
When I mentioned this, by the way, it was with regard to designing it myself, not justifying Harman's pricing. Just saying that, I could not DIY this particular speaker for cheap using equal quality parts.
I think you are helping me drive home my point. Unless you have some kind of hook up, use the 2345be, or don't use the supertweeter, there isn't a cheap way to klone this one.
Chris
Chris
This Hi End show is held in a hotel, and each system has it's own room. I visit this show every year. One exhibitor is an old friend, and he thinks that the rooms at the Grand Hotel are not good which causes the sound of most systems to sound screechy to him, so maybe it's the room. But I don't think so. Anyway, the the exhibitor thinks it sound okay for customers to listen to, then it must be good to them.pjpoes said:
Recently a few friends listened to and measured a Thiel CS5. It sounded a bit screechy, and when we did the measurements, sure enough there was a tweeter breakup mode a bit higher than 20KHz. So it seems that probably the Everest is using some tweeter of rigid material.
chrismercurio said:
But isn't the point that you don't need to!? The drivers Don't make a difference, its the system design that matters.
soongsc said:
"Screechy", "a bit OVER 20 kHz.", a little too over the top for me. I don't worry about anything above 10 kHz.
Sorry for late. Let's get back to 2 pages ago on the elliptical thing, shall we?
If a waveguide was done right in an elliptical shape, it should have a curvy front because of the constant countour path lengths. So, I imagine a pair of lips slightly protruding forward on the narrower side.
Or, I think it'd be very close in shape to the new AH 500. (He calls it " Conical Radial Horn " though.... And the sharp edge around mouth is somewhat questionable considering the diffractions... )
My real question is: how can we deal with the curvy front when integrating the whole baffle? The mib-bass driver would face the lower "lip" in a very short distance. That's not a good thing.
If we make the round over on mouth bigger, then the protruding part would seem not so obstructive. But that also decreases one of the benefits of an elliptical top - bringing the 2 closer. In the end, due to the larger round over, they might be in the same c-c distance as with the round WG.
Last but not least, the narrower vertical dispersion is really that good to justify all these troubles?
If a waveguide was done right in an elliptical shape, it should have a curvy front because of the constant countour path lengths. So, I imagine a pair of lips slightly protruding forward on the narrower side.
Or, I think it'd be very close in shape to the new AH 500. (He calls it " Conical Radial Horn " though.... And the sharp edge around mouth is somewhat questionable considering the diffractions... )
My real question is: how can we deal with the curvy front when integrating the whole baffle? The mib-bass driver would face the lower "lip" in a very short distance. That's not a good thing.
If we make the round over on mouth bigger, then the protruding part would seem not so obstructive. But that also decreases one of the benefits of an elliptical top - bringing the 2 closer. In the end, due to the larger round over, they might be in the same c-c distance as with the round WG.
Last but not least, the narrower vertical dispersion is really that good to justify all these troubles?
This resonance area is the main cause for metal domed,cone driver to sound harsh. Normally if you solve that, metal drivers are very good. Well, my father at the age of 90 won't mind the thigh frequency either.😀 I personally would like to have drivers well behaved up to 50KHz.gedlee said: