My cheapest, and sure path to get to rock nirvana: open baffle speakers made from 1956 Zenith stereo console drivers. 12in +4in paper/alnico drivers, woofer running full range, tweeter decoupled by a single cap. Amp: DIY 6AQ5 in triode mode, SE with cheap 8K:8R Edcor OPT, about 2W output. This combo is super cheap to build (provided you find an elderly couple who will be willing to part with their ancient Zenith console). Yea, these Zenith OBs are sensitive enough to rock on 2W, blow up your house, and send your neighbors screaming to turn the volume down for heaven's sake. (Yet, I never cranked up the volume to the max, not even close! - Plenty of reserves.
Believe me when I say this: you never heard King Crimson: Islands before you heard it on such a combo! Thinking about that experience brings me more elevated adrenaline levels than remembering any hifi show sessions (even Mr Ongaku, yours truly) or live concerts (Aerosmith or Duran Duran just two weeks ago.) The impact of guitar riffs is truly insane coming from these Alnicos. The instruments become ALIVE, living entities in their own right. Vocals tear into your soul. Experience that goes beyond the ears alone. I believe this is what all of us is after.
On paper, they should not go very deep, as the OB helps down to about 200Hz only. But they sound very authoritative and full. They were about 80cm wide, 140cm tall, with 10cm lips around the edges (truly, a very shallow open cabinet, not an OB in the truest sense). Tweeter placed at about 120cm height, and space between tweeter and woofer was about 4cm. (So, not even floor bounce for woofer!) A word of caution: keep the original coupling cap! Which was an ancient, discolored Sprague Atom (yuk! electrolytics in crossover!!!) of unidentifiable value. I tried a huge assortment of different caps, and none sounded right - always too polite and shy. The old leaky Atoms - hell, yeah, they rocked in this setup! Bypassed them with 50nF Russian oil caps, that added extra detail. Other than rock, they sounded great on all kinds of genre. I would say very high quality sound, the kind that you do not get tired of after prolonged listening. (Could listen to them 4-8hrs a day 7/7 for months without getting bored of them.) Also, these very same 6AQ5 amps pooped out completely in comparison to a stereo35 on lowish sensitivity $$ commercial speakers with a tough crossover, but on these OBs they came ALIVE.
BTW these OBs looked great - hacked up a nice cabinet (actually, two) to make them. Other than the screws it was a free venture. (Found the Zenith console on the street ; ). I never found any parameters on these drivers, so I went completely blind on the OBs. Yet, they far surpassed almost anything I heard so far that went through a rigorous design process. (Yes, there are amazing speakers out there, but these OBs sounded better than _most_ of the speakers you find at showrooms.) Blind luck, real bull's eye... They must be very sensitive drivers, this goes insanely loud an 1-2 watts alone. Unfortunately I had people poke through ALL of the drivers. I really, really wish to come accross another pair!!! Completely unknown and grossly undervalued. I built those as a joke, and they surpassed my wildest expectations.
Anyway, Alnico/paper/full range run woofer / simple cap for tweeter crossover in an OB is pretty much guaranteed to give you the gutsy rock&roll sound you crave. Check craigs list for old consoles... ; ) Worth a try, and if you do not like it, you can still spend $$$ for new drivers.
;
Janos
Believe me when I say this: you never heard King Crimson: Islands before you heard it on such a combo! Thinking about that experience brings me more elevated adrenaline levels than remembering any hifi show sessions (even Mr Ongaku, yours truly) or live concerts (Aerosmith or Duran Duran just two weeks ago.) The impact of guitar riffs is truly insane coming from these Alnicos. The instruments become ALIVE, living entities in their own right. Vocals tear into your soul. Experience that goes beyond the ears alone. I believe this is what all of us is after. On paper, they should not go very deep, as the OB helps down to about 200Hz only. But they sound very authoritative and full. They were about 80cm wide, 140cm tall, with 10cm lips around the edges (truly, a very shallow open cabinet, not an OB in the truest sense). Tweeter placed at about 120cm height, and space between tweeter and woofer was about 4cm. (So, not even floor bounce for woofer!) A word of caution: keep the original coupling cap! Which was an ancient, discolored Sprague Atom (yuk! electrolytics in crossover!!!) of unidentifiable value. I tried a huge assortment of different caps, and none sounded right - always too polite and shy. The old leaky Atoms - hell, yeah, they rocked in this setup! Bypassed them with 50nF Russian oil caps, that added extra detail. Other than rock, they sounded great on all kinds of genre. I would say very high quality sound, the kind that you do not get tired of after prolonged listening. (Could listen to them 4-8hrs a day 7/7 for months without getting bored of them.) Also, these very same 6AQ5 amps pooped out completely in comparison to a stereo35 on lowish sensitivity $$ commercial speakers with a tough crossover, but on these OBs they came ALIVE.
BTW these OBs looked great - hacked up a nice cabinet (actually, two) to make them. Other than the screws it was a free venture. (Found the Zenith console on the street ; ). I never found any parameters on these drivers, so I went completely blind on the OBs. Yet, they far surpassed almost anything I heard so far that went through a rigorous design process. (Yes, there are amazing speakers out there, but these OBs sounded better than _most_ of the speakers you find at showrooms.) Blind luck, real bull's eye... They must be very sensitive drivers, this goes insanely loud an 1-2 watts alone. Unfortunately I had people poke through ALL of the drivers. I really, really wish to come accross another pair!!! Completely unknown and grossly undervalued. I built those as a joke, and they surpassed my wildest expectations.
Anyway, Alnico/paper/full range run woofer / simple cap for tweeter crossover in an OB is pretty much guaranteed to give you the gutsy rock&roll sound you crave. Check craigs list for old consoles... ; ) Worth a try, and if you do not like it, you can still spend $$$ for new drivers.
;
Janos
Janos, thanks for the input - they must be very efficient speakers. I could appreciate the nice warm sound they must have, though my own taste is for more low end grunt.
I was actually jamming tonight on some okay headphones, which were bought based on their frequency response down to 20hz, though i dont have a curve or what the db was at 20... but anyway, most things sound pretty good on them even stuff like bass (the instrument). But, there was something missing, and that sonething was the punchy part i keep mentioning. Perhaps felt more than heard? Elsewhere it was described as the 50-70hz range. Conclusion was that a speaker could have the range i want but not be punchy at all (though perhaps this is unfair given that they were on the ear headphones).
I was actually jamming tonight on some okay headphones, which were bought based on their frequency response down to 20hz, though i dont have a curve or what the db was at 20... but anyway, most things sound pretty good on them even stuff like bass (the instrument). But, there was something missing, and that sonething was the punchy part i keep mentioning. Perhaps felt more than heard? Elsewhere it was described as the 50-70hz range. Conclusion was that a speaker could have the range i want but not be punchy at all (though perhaps this is unfair given that they were on the ear headphones).
Janos: Sounds like you had some Zenith 49cz* drivers. I've got a pair of the 12"s and they are damn good. I'm using them full range in some very large open baffles in my garage workshop atm. I've used them over alpha 15a's in h-frame, hp ~150hz and they really performed nicely.
I may experiment with them some more down the road.
One example of them:
Glow in the Dark Audio - Zenith 49CZ852 1950's Alnico full range driver
Best part is they can be quite cheap to buy, even ebay has reasonably priced examples.
I may experiment with them some more down the road.
One example of them:
Glow in the Dark Audio - Zenith 49CZ852 1950's Alnico full range driver
Best part is they can be quite cheap to buy, even ebay has reasonably priced examples.
looks like the Zenith would have a vibrant midrange - small light coil, small light spider, alnico magnet, and multi-rib cone. For modern 12" speakers I would think the Fane 250 (and Cannabus Rex) would do pretty well (I've run both in a little Karlson but not OB) - I wish Eminence would make a fullrange 12 based on the Cannibus Rex using 56oz magnet
harmonically rich voices such a Pavel Lisitsian are a good test
harmonically rich voices such a Pavel Lisitsian are a good test
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pcgab - yes, they are the same woofers as in the link. I could use the exact same words that the link described them with. Coincidentally, I also ran them with a Darling amp as well (although the "beefy" DC coupled - PSE Darling with a whopping 1.5W) and the big brother of 6V6, the 807 (Heathkit W2 modified for 807). My experience with my amps was the exact same as on the website with his amps. Glad to see confirmation! ; )
sbcrx007 - I used to use HPs extensively, and yes, they lack the punch-feel. Even though an HP can go super low, you miss something, esp in rock. Best solutions: HPs, and leave the speakers on as well! You'll get the added imaging and resolution of the HPs plus the slam from the floorstanders - and the complaints of the neighbors for listening too loud ; ).
Indeed, these Zeniths must be around / at least 96dB sensitive. Listened to them on the OB side by side with Fostex FE204 Voigt pipes (95/96dB sensitive drivers), and the Zeniths in the OB are noticeably more sensitive / louder / more dynamic.
sbcrx007 - I used to use HPs extensively, and yes, they lack the punch-feel. Even though an HP can go super low, you miss something, esp in rock. Best solutions: HPs, and leave the speakers on as well! You'll get the added imaging and resolution of the HPs plus the slam from the floorstanders - and the complaints of the neighbors for listening too loud ; ).
Indeed, these Zeniths must be around / at least 96dB sensitive. Listened to them on the OB side by side with Fostex FE204 Voigt pipes (95/96dB sensitive drivers), and the Zeniths in the OB are noticeably more sensitive / louder / more dynamic.
HPs? What's that one stand for? You guys have as many acronyms as the military guys do...
Edit - "headphones", of course.. ha!
Indeed, i found it sounded best with the main speakers still on as well...
At one point i was considering just putting headphone jacks at the couch for movies, and bass shakers or similar mounted to the back of the couch...
Edit - "headphones", of course.. ha!
Indeed, i found it sounded best with the main speakers still on as well...
At one point i was considering just putting headphone jacks at the couch for movies, and bass shakers or similar mounted to the back of the couch...
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So, where do I stand here on this single driver project? I'm still open to all options, even OB I suppose (with wire mesh over the woofer H-frame to kid-proof it?). Wish there was an easy way to hear all of the different options.
I still like some of the TWQT/TL/BH designs, the BIB in particular, but question what the bass would be like... extension down to low low frequencies yes, but possibly more "boomy" than "punchy? I want to feel the impact of the drums and feel the weight of organs or deeper orchestral bits... perhaps best not to fool around making a smaller/lighter speaker sound bigger with an engineered chamber/tuned length/horn and just use a larger speaker itself for the bass?
The Karlson/ator designs are pretty neat and have a cool 50's look to them (though these would need wire mesh over them as well to keep fingers out of the cones), but I don't have a good feel for what these would sound like either. A big enough karlson (to make some real bass) would probably need a 12 or 15 like that big coax that Freddi had linked to (except if I go with a horn driver and woofer it's no longer a full range "single driver" setup, even less so than adding a helper woofer or tweeter), and would then need a helper tweeter up at the top at the very least, maybe a tweeter coming in lower like a normal 2-way.
A bass reflex enclosure would be easy to design and make, but similar concerns to the BIB and less low end than a TWQT or horn. And probably boomy. Though as to how much "boom" is acceptable is gray area... my current mains are bass reflex and I enjoy them quite a bit and don't find them excessively "boomy" or resonant at one particular note during normal listening - though perhaps with certain bass guitar notes you might notice something. And using a driver that is "full range" is probably not going to provide enough low end grunt... even the much loved 12lta I have my doubts about.
I know I'm forgetting some other options here...
Youtube videos of various designs being played thru my computer speakers all seem to sound "okay" (oddly enough most of them sound like small computer speakers...) but this seems to be of pretty token value.
Some of the hi-fi ideas in this thread probably sound great at reasonable listening levels, maybe even fairly loud (without helper woofers to eliminate distortion from trying to play the lower frequencies)... but in rock concert mode? watching a movie in home theater mode? I'm thinking a lot of the smaller lightweight stuff that sounds good otherwise is going to fall down hard in these listening modes. Plus being driven by a solid state amp pushing more watts than a tube amp means that I can and do occasionally crank it up to 11.
***
Which leaves me with basically with a FAST setup - a single driver for most of the range, and a helper woofer for the low low stuff.
So my options are sealed or open baffle for FAST?
No point doing a vented enclosure for the full range speaker if it's not going to be reproducing any bass right (plus possible phase issues fighting what the dedicated woofer is producing)? Same thing for any TWQT/ML-TL/Horn enclosure right?
Something like the Goldwood 18 for woofer, and an Alpair 10.3 for mid/highs?
(looking at MJK's project here for inspiration: http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Jordan.pdf) Though I'm not altogether sold on OB yet...
I still wouldn't mind using that big 12lta for mids/highs, but its not going to have the reach of the 10.3 up high and would need a helper tweeter (making it a "single driver" 3-way!!)...
So, ($97+85+crossover+wood) x2 = maybe $564 all in? This would be an acceptable price.
[There's some irony in using the budget 12lta in something like the BBBIB, since the speaker is only 70 bucks but you need like $250 in wood to make them both (if you want them to look nice, using birch ply) so you're still at $490 with some FT17Hs, plus a few dollars more for the components to roll in the supertweeter up high.]
I still like some of the TWQT/TL/BH designs, the BIB in particular, but question what the bass would be like... extension down to low low frequencies yes, but possibly more "boomy" than "punchy? I want to feel the impact of the drums and feel the weight of organs or deeper orchestral bits... perhaps best not to fool around making a smaller/lighter speaker sound bigger with an engineered chamber/tuned length/horn and just use a larger speaker itself for the bass?
The Karlson/ator designs are pretty neat and have a cool 50's look to them (though these would need wire mesh over them as well to keep fingers out of the cones), but I don't have a good feel for what these would sound like either. A big enough karlson (to make some real bass) would probably need a 12 or 15 like that big coax that Freddi had linked to (except if I go with a horn driver and woofer it's no longer a full range "single driver" setup, even less so than adding a helper woofer or tweeter), and would then need a helper tweeter up at the top at the very least, maybe a tweeter coming in lower like a normal 2-way.
A bass reflex enclosure would be easy to design and make, but similar concerns to the BIB and less low end than a TWQT or horn. And probably boomy. Though as to how much "boom" is acceptable is gray area... my current mains are bass reflex and I enjoy them quite a bit and don't find them excessively "boomy" or resonant at one particular note during normal listening - though perhaps with certain bass guitar notes you might notice something. And using a driver that is "full range" is probably not going to provide enough low end grunt... even the much loved 12lta I have my doubts about.
I know I'm forgetting some other options here...
Youtube videos of various designs being played thru my computer speakers all seem to sound "okay" (oddly enough most of them sound like small computer speakers...) but this seems to be of pretty token value.
Some of the hi-fi ideas in this thread probably sound great at reasonable listening levels, maybe even fairly loud (without helper woofers to eliminate distortion from trying to play the lower frequencies)... but in rock concert mode? watching a movie in home theater mode? I'm thinking a lot of the smaller lightweight stuff that sounds good otherwise is going to fall down hard in these listening modes. Plus being driven by a solid state amp pushing more watts than a tube amp means that I can and do occasionally crank it up to 11.
***
Which leaves me with basically with a FAST setup - a single driver for most of the range, and a helper woofer for the low low stuff.
So my options are sealed or open baffle for FAST?
No point doing a vented enclosure for the full range speaker if it's not going to be reproducing any bass right (plus possible phase issues fighting what the dedicated woofer is producing)? Same thing for any TWQT/ML-TL/Horn enclosure right?
Something like the Goldwood 18 for woofer, and an Alpair 10.3 for mid/highs?
(looking at MJK's project here for inspiration: http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Jordan.pdf) Though I'm not altogether sold on OB yet...
I still wouldn't mind using that big 12lta for mids/highs, but its not going to have the reach of the 10.3 up high and would need a helper tweeter (making it a "single driver" 3-way!!)...
So, ($97+85+crossover+wood) x2 = maybe $564 all in? This would be an acceptable price.
[There's some irony in using the budget 12lta in something like the BBBIB, since the speaker is only 70 bucks but you need like $250 in wood to make them both (if you want them to look nice, using birch ply) so you're still at $490 with some FT17Hs, plus a few dollars more for the components to roll in the supertweeter up high.]
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This could be due to a room mode. Perhaps now might be a good time to put the decision on speaker type on hold for a while and tell us a bit more about the rest of your set up, room and placement
Scott, that could very well be. It's a bit of an odd living room. Back wall is solid, left wall is solid. Right wall has a doorway opening at the rear that goes to the upstairs. Front wall with stereo/tv/speakers has a large doorway (like double width) on the left and also a normal doorway on the right. The stereo and speakers sit between the two doorways on the front wall (maybe 4" off the wall), meaning that they are probably not corner loaded much - if at all - since there's a big hole between them and the corner of the room. So they are floor/wall loaded only. Room dimensions I gave somewhere in this thread I thought (?) but I can't seem to find it right now.. I'm not there now, so a guess would be 30' wide x 15' deep, with carpet on the floor, plus a couch and bookshelves full of books on the left side to soak up echoes.
I don't want to over-analyze the current room anyhow, as the house is up for sale... and who knows what the new living room will look like (though likely dimensionally similar), and the new place may not have 3 doorways into the room so the mains may well end up corner loaded... So potentially totally different room modes in a few months, whenever we find the next house...
Amp is a Yamaha RX-V870 and the blue ray player does double duty as cd player since my 5 disc player died some years ago (which oddly enough seems to be about the time all my cds were stolen out of my car anyway...). I have a graphic equalizer/spectrum analyzer that I play with from time to time, but find I like the sound as-is with it disengaged better. Admittedly, much of my music these days gets played on mp3 format or even from youtube (ouch, I know, I know..) But since the kids seem to destroy everything it hardly seems worth having a bunch of cds (let alone records) for them to run around with and play "frisbee"...
I don't want to over-analyze the current room anyhow, as the house is up for sale... and who knows what the new living room will look like (though likely dimensionally similar), and the new place may not have 3 doorways into the room so the mains may well end up corner loaded... So potentially totally different room modes in a few months, whenever we find the next house...
Amp is a Yamaha RX-V870 and the blue ray player does double duty as cd player since my 5 disc player died some years ago (which oddly enough seems to be about the time all my cds were stolen out of my car anyway...). I have a graphic equalizer/spectrum analyzer that I play with from time to time, but find I like the sound as-is with it disengaged better. Admittedly, much of my music these days gets played on mp3 format or even from youtube (ouch, I know, I know..) But since the kids seem to destroy everything it hardly seems worth having a bunch of cds (let alone records) for them to run around with and play "frisbee"...
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FWIW I am running the following OB/full range setup:
Audio Nirvana Classic 15 Alnico - full range (no helper tweeter needed)
Peerless 830669 12" Paper Cone - plate amp crossing over around 85 Hz)
For me, 60% of the magic comes from full range. The other 40% magic is due to OB. These are mounted on a 48 x 20 OB.
I would strongly stick to a large driver of 12" or larger if you like a full and rich sound and a large soundstage. I tried the Alnico Zeniths and they are good but nowhere nearly as transparent as the Audio Nirvanas. And the Zeniths need a helper tweeter. If I were to go in the vintage Alnico direction, I would get some 12" Cleveland Alnicos (just as good as the Zeniths at a fraction of the price).
I would seriously look at the AN12s at $350/pair if that is in your range. The minute that you add a helper tweeter, you have lost some of the full range purity and point source magic.
Audio Nirvana Classic 15 Alnico - full range (no helper tweeter needed)
Peerless 830669 12" Paper Cone - plate amp crossing over around 85 Hz)
For me, 60% of the magic comes from full range. The other 40% magic is due to OB. These are mounted on a 48 x 20 OB.
I would strongly stick to a large driver of 12" or larger if you like a full and rich sound and a large soundstage. I tried the Alnico Zeniths and they are good but nowhere nearly as transparent as the Audio Nirvanas. And the Zeniths need a helper tweeter. If I were to go in the vintage Alnico direction, I would get some 12" Cleveland Alnicos (just as good as the Zeniths at a fraction of the price).
I would seriously look at the AN12s at $350/pair if that is in your range. The minute that you add a helper tweeter, you have lost some of the full range purity and point source magic.
Also, speaking of crossovers and such... I don't think DSP is in this budget right now, was planning on passive crossovers if they were needed.
Dave @ P10 had mentioned line level crossovers, but it appears they are just high pass or low pass, and since I'm running a single amp I don't see how that could work.
Horizons - thanks for the input, I just wish there was an OB setup somewhere local to listen to, just to convince me... I'm very used to the boxed enclosure sound...
I had looked briefly at the Audio Nirvana stuff, but most of that is a little outside the budget.. though maybe not the AN12 ferrite. It's tough to imagine (or impossible) how these different ideas would sound in comparison to one another!
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an12classicspecs.jpg
I'm a little concerned on wattage rating too, despite what dave said... That's a 30W rated/45W max speaker, and my amp is 80w rms per channel.. and I like things pretty loud occasionally.
The no tweeter/point source magic is the main reason I'm considering going to a smaller full range like the Alpair 10.3 that sings a little better up higher and using a helper woofer down low. Just not entirely sold on Open Baffle yet.
Dave @ P10 had mentioned line level crossovers, but it appears they are just high pass or low pass, and since I'm running a single amp I don't see how that could work.
Horizons - thanks for the input, I just wish there was an OB setup somewhere local to listen to, just to convince me... I'm very used to the boxed enclosure sound...
I had looked briefly at the Audio Nirvana stuff, but most of that is a little outside the budget.. though maybe not the AN12 ferrite. It's tough to imagine (or impossible) how these different ideas would sound in comparison to one another!
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an12classicspecs.jpg
I'm a little concerned on wattage rating too, despite what dave said... That's a 30W rated/45W max speaker, and my amp is 80w rms per channel.. and I like things pretty loud occasionally.
The no tweeter/point source magic is the main reason I'm considering going to a smaller full range like the Alpair 10.3 that sings a little better up higher and using a helper woofer down low. Just not entirely sold on Open Baffle yet.
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Scott, why not? MJK made it work here:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Passive_Crossover.pdf
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Passive_Crossover.pdf
We have done passive XOs for 2 of our current FASTs. They work fine (very fine), but the size of the parts make them very expensive. And not that easy.
dave
Yeah, I see he used $180 worth of bits to make his... What's the budget active setup to use right now? I was going to use an iNuke3000dsp for the HT sub, but not for the mains...
If I went passive, I'd likely be doing a copycat build of Martin's or someone else who has the expertise... may as well follow in the footsteps of someone who knows much more than myself than trying to reinvent the wheel.
If I went passive, I'd likely be doing a copycat build of Martin's or someone else who has the expertise... may as well follow in the footsteps of someone who knows much more than myself than trying to reinvent the wheel.
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