back to the 12 - how about something like "this" ? BVR - speaker at top
there was an attempt with 12lta at "this" thread Eminence beta 12lta & Beyma CP22 (metingen) - forum.zelfbouwaudio.nl
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there was an attempt with 12lta at "this" thread Eminence beta 12lta & Beyma CP22 (metingen) - forum.zelfbouwaudio.nl
Google Translate English version Google Translate
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Scott - is that a dual setup, or are those helper woofers..? Well what all are they?! 
Freddi - I figured the upside down karlson had been done already.. Wonder what the WAF is on that, haha.
which BVR did you mean? The Moose/maria chang one that Dave posted?
The German guys design is okay, not sure what that peak around 100hz would sound like.. would make it sound like a smaller cone maybe..
Freddi - I figured the upside down karlson had been done already.. Wonder what the WAF is on that, haha.
which BVR did you mean? The Moose/maria chang one that Dave posted?
The German guys design is okay, not sure what that peak around 100hz would sound like.. would make it sound like a smaller cone maybe..
BVR were popular in the early 1950's and seen in University Sound's cabinet lineup for the Diffusicone fullrange series (see Abraham Cohen - HIFi loudspeakers and Enclosrues) You can use hornresp look at tradeoffs
(btw- i have a new 0.7 scaled University Classic)
Diffusicone was quite a take on how to make a whizzer cone
btw- the 40Hz Fb tuning refers to the straight reflex port below
- i put it beside the wrong vent type
1954 big vent reflex - aka - stubby horn reflex cabinet - Bill Woods calls them "half horn"
Here's one of Bill's little hitboxes - that hit can emphasize cello and drums - IIRC the chamber is 70 liter
Here's a nice blog from where that picture occurs - its worth it for Bettie Page and also the Twin Power horn pix retro vintage modern hi-fi: May 2016
(btw- i have a new 0.7 scaled University Classic)
Diffusicone was quite a take on how to make a whizzer cone
btw- the 40Hz Fb tuning refers to the straight reflex port below
- i put it beside the wrong vent type
1954 big vent reflex - aka - stubby horn reflex cabinet - Bill Woods calls them "half horn"
Here's one of Bill's little hitboxes - that hit can emphasize cello and drums - IIRC the chamber is 70 liter
Here's a nice blog from where that picture occurs - its worth it for Bettie Page and also the Twin Power horn pix retro vintage modern hi-fi: May 2016
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Just started reading this thread, rather informative so far!
A Speaker that Kicks Butt in Large Spaces
I'll try modeling (in cad) XRK's favorite MLTL with the Betsy K next.
Freddi - I need to try hornresp yet, I've been putting it off for some reason (learning curve perhaps). I need to try some of the other spreadsheets that are out there too... Foolish on my part to have not done that yet
In my defense, much of my reading/research/posting here is done on a little smartphone screen, not sure how I'd run hornresp or excel from there but likely it's over my head.
A Speaker that Kicks Butt in Large Spaces
I'll try modeling (in cad) XRK's favorite MLTL with the Betsy K next.
Freddi - I need to try hornresp yet, I've been putting it off for some reason (learning curve perhaps). I need to try some of the other spreadsheets that are out there too... Foolish on my part to have not done that yet
In my defense, much of my reading/research/posting here is done on a little smartphone screen, not sure how I'd run hornresp or excel from there but likely it's over my head.
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Scott - is that a dual setup, or are those helper woofers..? Well what all are they?!
The woofers are HiVi M12's in a U-frame, 2 each side crossed at 125Hz. The small fullrange is Jordan Eikona (also with active crossover) in the VTL cabinet but I built it with a removable back panel so I could also use it OB.
Scott - nice! That's a bit fancier than was I'm shooting for, I like the look of the dual 12's... how is the bass open baffle with them?
Freddi - I wish I knew! Some of you guys have the experience to just look at the t/s parameters and tell what the speaker will be like... I do not have that sense.
It's not my proposed MLTL, it's xrk971's from that thread I linked to (speaker that kicks butt thread).
He seems to like it:
"45 in tall MLTL (11 in wide x 16 in deep x 1.625 in tall x 11 wide x 4 in deep port at bottom, driver 9 in from top)"
so I'm not sure if that's internal or external dims. If internal, that's 7920 in^3 = 4.58 ft^3 of volume. All I was really going off of there was the frequency plot (#1 plot, first post), which looks like it goes down to about 28hz @ -5dB or 35 hz @ -0dB... Which seems rather remarkable for that particular driver.
Perhaps I'm missing something there... such as, it goes down to 28hz and makes 90dB @ 1w/1m, but perhaps cone excursion exceeds xmax if you crank it up any beyond that? I haven't seen a cone excursion plot posted yet, but I've only just begun reading the thread.. and it's 100 pgs long.
Freddi - I wish I knew! Some of you guys have the experience to just look at the t/s parameters and tell what the speaker will be like... I do not have that sense.
It's not my proposed MLTL, it's xrk971's from that thread I linked to (speaker that kicks butt thread).
He seems to like it:
Dims are posted as
"45 in tall MLTL (11 in wide x 16 in deep x 1.625 in tall x 11 wide x 4 in deep port at bottom, driver 9 in from top)"
so I'm not sure if that's internal or external dims. If internal, that's 7920 in^3 = 4.58 ft^3 of volume. All I was really going off of there was the frequency plot (#1 plot, first post), which looks like it goes down to about 28hz @ -5dB or 35 hz @ -0dB... Which seems rather remarkable for that particular driver.
Perhaps I'm missing something there... such as, it goes down to 28hz and makes 90dB @ 1w/1m, but perhaps cone excursion exceeds xmax if you crank it up any beyond that? I haven't seen a cone excursion plot posted yet, but I've only just begun reading the thread.. and it's 100 pgs long.
that's a big MLTL -don't know how it would perform subjectively. I made some fake "Druid" some years ago for Eminence's original , low qts B102 and tried with Visaton's B20 so BetsyK should work but have cutoff a half octave higher, and probably more power handling where drums and bass viola are centered. (the little Druid pipe is about 1.3 cubic feet internal volume and the backwave exits at the floor - adjustable spikes on the base allow mild voicing - I used to have measurements of my mild attempt outdoors)
I got some "hit" (for an 8 inch) from BetsyK in the old Karlson12 (all K12 are basically the same size on the outside whether 1954 or when Karlson passed away in Jan. 1973) - But BetsyK played only about 5 minutes until a tinsel lead shook loose from its eyelet - that's not the drivers fault as not intended to play at those levels. There was very little visible cone excursion so from that standpoint, BetsyK likes K12. A brighter fullrange such as Fostex FE206EN is more suitable I think for K12. FE206EN is well behaved in K12. W8-1772 OK but oddly, I think 1772 wants a somewhat smaller K-coupler than K12. Its impedance characteristics when tuned as in K12 tend to pull more power below cutoff than FE206E. Maybe the suspension is less limited too (?)
although I carp about 12LTA, at least it in K12 12LTA trounced my AN10 in a reflex when attempting to play Danley's recording of a Harley Davidson bike - K12 sounded reasonably like the real thing while the reflex (tuned too low i suspect at 41Hz) left AN10 flapping chaotically with nothing but distortion. Excursion can go way up when the motor loses control. Sometimes a progressive suspension can help.
with very low xmax drivers, you have to make the most and live within their limits
Hey scottjoplin - what's your OB/sub setup?
I got some "hit" (for an 8 inch) from BetsyK in the old Karlson12 (all K12 are basically the same size on the outside whether 1954 or when Karlson passed away in Jan. 1973) - But BetsyK played only about 5 minutes until a tinsel lead shook loose from its eyelet - that's not the drivers fault as not intended to play at those levels. There was very little visible cone excursion so from that standpoint, BetsyK likes K12. A brighter fullrange such as Fostex FE206EN is more suitable I think for K12. FE206EN is well behaved in K12. W8-1772 OK but oddly, I think 1772 wants a somewhat smaller K-coupler than K12. Its impedance characteristics when tuned as in K12 tend to pull more power below cutoff than FE206E. Maybe the suspension is less limited too (?)
although I carp about 12LTA, at least it in K12 12LTA trounced my AN10 in a reflex when attempting to play Danley's recording of a Harley Davidson bike - K12 sounded reasonably like the real thing while the reflex (tuned too low i suspect at 41Hz) left AN10 flapping chaotically with nothing but distortion. Excursion can go way up when the motor loses control. Sometimes a progressive suspension can help.
with very low xmax drivers, you have to make the most and live within their limits
Hey scottjoplin - what's your OB/sub setup?
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Scott - I must have been between 2 thoughts there.. thinking a few words in front of what you're typing causes trouble! All I meant was "how is the bass from the OB 12s?"
Freddi - I'm guessing huge volume just to get down that low... but no idea what the "hit" would be like, aka how "punchy" it would be.
I do recall reading about the lead coming loose on your Betsy K, that's a bit frightening... I have a feeling I would be pushing them pretty hard to make the sort of volume that the fishers do, maybe too hard. Perhaps won't know til I just buy a pair and make some cheesy OSB enclosures to try them in. I guess I was hoping for more first hand experience with them, other than in the k12 (no offense), to get a sense of what they were like.
I'll have to try the Danley Harley recording... Something (maybe similar) that immediately came to my mind was a scene in the 1st "transformers" movie from a few years ago where the badguy robot is a black mustang police car, and rumbles on past where the good guys are hiding. My poor little 12" powered subwoofer goes into fits and seizures trying to reproduce it, flapping about like a fish out of water.
I think it was this scene, right near the beginning of the clip:
Transformers Bumblebee vs Barricade - YouTube
Freddi - I'm guessing huge volume just to get down that low... but no idea what the "hit" would be like, aka how "punchy" it would be.
I do recall reading about the lead coming loose on your Betsy K, that's a bit frightening... I have a feeling I would be pushing them pretty hard to make the sort of volume that the fishers do, maybe too hard. Perhaps won't know til I just buy a pair and make some cheesy OSB enclosures to try them in. I guess I was hoping for more first hand experience with them, other than in the k12 (no offense), to get a sense of what they were like.
I'll have to try the Danley Harley recording... Something (maybe similar) that immediately came to my mind was a scene in the 1st "transformers" movie from a few years ago where the badguy robot is a black mustang police car, and rumbles on past where the good guys are hiding. My poor little 12" powered subwoofer goes into fits and seizures trying to reproduce it, flapping about like a fish out of water.
I think it was this scene, right near the beginning of the clip:
Transformers Bumblebee vs Barricade - YouTube
I have them differently to in the picture, they are now against the side walls and about 4 feet from the front wall.
don't be scared of the WBAL - I don't think most FR-ers would be pushing an 8 as hard as I did (and it might take a Karlson to keep the cone excursion down enough to even push it that hard) My room is 28x18x8. BetsyK is well made in the US and a cleaner drover I think than the similar looking Visaton B20#. The beginning of Danley's bike recording before it takes off and back is where it sounds nice - mic up close and idling. I like good dynamics so Karlson and horn systems are fun. I have a new little midbass horn - scaled-down University Classic driven by a surplus SWR 10" built by Eminence - rough sim indicates 110dB sensitivity 1pi 1 W 1M - won't know if it'll play til loaded measured - it will need a midhorn - tweeter horn and small sub to be a modest mono rig.
(*B20 - at least graph-wise, looks good when de-whizzered)
(*B20 - at least graph-wise, looks good when de-whizzered)
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@ 007. I'm very happy with the sound. Very accurate, I find double bass a good test. They reproduce all types well, even old school dub sounds effortless and more interesting. I don't use any LF boost but a little EQ to flatten the response. Also they don't pressurize the room as other speakers do and the bass doesn't travel/carry through the house in the same way
scottjoplin - what drivers does your OB system use? What crossover F and slopes? I have Klipschorns in a room with flexy walls - I can tap the wall and it will go "booommmmm" = horrible coloration rendering the cornerhorn unlistenable. I like the Karlson's in general as they do well with drum transients, bowed and plucked/salpped bass. The little K12 makes a good front-load horn substitute and slotted pipe tweeter, much different than large WG sound.
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Four HiVi M12's in total (Swans) Product information:M12 Bass-Midrange and a pair or Jordan Eikonas, using active LR4 crossover at 125Hz
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