Well, different situations perhaps...
Horizon, yours better sound good @ $1100 for the pair of AN15s..
And you've got the Peerless 12's coming in at 85 hz... hmmm.
Vix has the B200 and the Beta 15 at the bottom...
(no sarcasm or snark in my previous comment btw, in case it read that way - that's just how it got typed!)
Actually I would have thought that Vix's setup would have more "punch" with that big eminence woofer? but I've yet to actually hear an OB setup, maybe they are counter-intuitive. Or maybe one of you is just pushing more wattage... Or some kind of issue with Vix's like Dave was talking, solid state vs tube, high impedance vs low impedance, and not getting the most out of it? (I don't pretend to understand that aspect of this - yet)
I'd expect the H-frame woofers to have more bass than straight OB, since you're trapping/channeling the air somewhat.
Horizon, yours better sound good @ $1100 for the pair of AN15s..
And you've got the Peerless 12's coming in at 85 hz... hmmm.
Vix has the B200 and the Beta 15 at the bottom...
(no sarcasm or snark in my previous comment btw, in case it read that way - that's just how it got typed!)
Actually I would have thought that Vix's setup would have more "punch" with that big eminence woofer? but I've yet to actually hear an OB setup, maybe they are counter-intuitive. Or maybe one of you is just pushing more wattage... Or some kind of issue with Vix's like Dave was talking, solid state vs tube, high impedance vs low impedance, and not getting the most out of it? (I don't pretend to understand that aspect of this - yet)
I'd expect the H-frame woofers to have more bass than straight OB, since you're trapping/channeling the air somewhat.
You are effectively making the baffle larger mh-audio.nl - Home
Have you discovered Linkwitz Lab yet?
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Been there, done that, gone back.
I’ll sort of agree with that, but i would classify them as a significant design, not a great one.
dave
[wiki=]%[/wiki]
H-frames trade HF extension for size. They start to ‘ring’ at frequencies related to the length of the sides and have to be cut-off below that frequency.
dave
H-frames trade HF extension for size. They start to ‘ring’ at frequencies related to the length of the sides and have to be cut-off below that frequency.
dave
I actually changed from the Alpha 15A to the 12 and the 12 hits harder and has more headroom.
So many audiophools write off OB because they think they will not get enough bass. However, most people never go back to boxed bass once they here how OB bass floats in the room.
I am a musician and I need a BIG airy sound top to bottom or it doesn't sound like live music to me. I have been to so many audio shows with highly touted systems and they sound like tiny and boxy representations of live sound.
Scott - had looked briefly at linkwitz lab site... Will take a closer look. That miniLX setup looks interesting and the theory sounds impressive, but its another one I'd have to hear to believe...
Re: room pressurization, should there really be a difference? In the listening area if you're comparing two systems even wildly different but at the same volume, the spl ought to be the same as well - which is just pressure, right?
Re: room pressurization, should there really be a difference? In the listening area if you're comparing two systems even wildly different but at the same volume, the spl ought to be the same as well - which is just pressure, right?
Good point, I really don't know. I've asked on threads a few times but haven't got an answer. I know it feels different to me (my ears). If you imagine a sealed box speaker (or a ported one for that matter) in a room with the doors and windows shut there is going to be a change in pressure within the room, I think this is different to SPL
I've been trying to understand what it is that would make the 12 hit harder than the 15... seems that simple physics would dictate the 15 have the upper hand.. but clearly this is not always the case.
This BIG sound is what im shooting for.
Or a different way of auralizing punch. An OB cab do bass, but because the back cancels the fron tbelow some frequency it does not pressurize the room the same way an omni-dirctional (ie boxed) woofer does.
dave
So cone area(Sd) x Xmax = volume displaced...
But since area goes up with radius squared, the cone dia is going to have more effect than xmax..
Could one theoretically compare drivers "punch" this way then? (Maybe it needs a better name... "sonic impact"?)
And an actual measured cone displacement would be better than using xmax figures...
But since area goes up with radius squared, the cone dia is going to have more effect than xmax..
Could one theoretically compare drivers "punch" this way then? (Maybe it needs a better name... "sonic impact"?)
And an actual measured cone displacement would be better than using xmax figures...
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'Boom/Punch' is in a narrow BW [~100-180 Hz], down where there's 'no replacement for displacement', so one must have either sufficient displacement, power and/or a lot of acoustic efficiency, so stating a 12" has more 'punch' than a 15" is wishful thinking without knowing all the particulars of the comparison.
Since this is the 'FR' forum, I'm assuming we're comparing big ones, which would include all the other frequency bands, so as we move up in frequency the 12" remains a point source much higher and can very well sound more 'in tune' with the music up in the 440-900 Hz 'honk' and 800-1600 Hz 'whack' BWs where to our ears the real 'punch' resides; the LF, mid-bass fundamentals/early harmonics just produce the relatively bog slow pulsing pressure with the 250-450 Hz adding 'fullness', or 'mud' if excessive.
Listen to a woofer XO'd even up to 500 Hz and it sounds ~ like a load of clothes sloshing around back n' forth in an old pre-HE big impeller washing machine.
Anyway, so everybody's on the same 'page' and hopefully will stay there as this info is essential to helping choose driver types, size, XO points to suit the individual's app [do a Google image search if you want bigger pictures and/or more charts]: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/ele...y-chart-electronic-music-what-goes-where.html
Then there's driver, baffle polar response to consider..........
GM
Since this is the 'FR' forum, I'm assuming we're comparing big ones, which would include all the other frequency bands, so as we move up in frequency the 12" remains a point source much higher and can very well sound more 'in tune' with the music up in the 440-900 Hz 'honk' and 800-1600 Hz 'whack' BWs where to our ears the real 'punch' resides; the LF, mid-bass fundamentals/early harmonics just produce the relatively bog slow pulsing pressure with the 250-450 Hz adding 'fullness', or 'mud' if excessive.
Listen to a woofer XO'd even up to 500 Hz and it sounds ~ like a load of clothes sloshing around back n' forth in an old pre-HE big impeller washing machine.
Anyway, so everybody's on the same 'page' and hopefully will stay there as this info is essential to helping choose driver types, size, XO points to suit the individual's app [do a Google image search if you want bigger pictures and/or more charts]: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/ele...y-chart-electronic-music-what-goes-where.html
Then there's driver, baffle polar response to consider..........
GM
Just to add something, it might be useful: Open Baffles need to breathe. They need to be away from the back wall, three feet at least. In my case, they are almost stuck to the back wall. The initial idea was to pull them into the room when listening, but in practice, this hardly happens. When close to the wall, they tend to sound garbled and unnatural, due to early reflections from the back wall. So, before considering an Open Baffle, think about their placement. Also, listener position matters. With OB, best bass is if they are 1/3rd out into the room and the listener is sitting maybe on 2/3rd s into the room. sealed boxes sounded best if close to a wall (not corner though-it was boomy), and if the listener is either close to them, or further out in the room, closer to the opposite wall. So, before deciding about a design, do a sketch of the room, planned speaker position and the listener position.
In my case, I have changed the apartment. Now the room is pretty unforgiving, an almost square one Open baffle speakers are close to the wall and I am sitting on a sofa on the opposite wall.
To summarize: To provide "punch", I would build a Bib with an 8" driver, or something like Sachico, Vulcan or similar. Bbib with Eminence 12 lta would perhaps be too much. If you want to use Eminence, then build a proposed ML-TL, despite that it looks like BR
In my case, I have changed the apartment. Now the room is pretty unforgiving, an almost square one
Open baffle speakers are close to the wall and I am sitting on a sofa on the opposite wall. To summarize: To provide "punch", I would build a Bib with an 8" driver, or something like Sachico, Vulcan or similar. Bbib with Eminence 12 lta would perhaps be too much. If you want to use Eminence, then build a proposed ML-TL, despite that it looks like BR
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GM - So barring crazy efficiencies/crazy power, bigger is better...? When you say displacement here, I'm assuming you mean volume displaced by the cone in motion, like Dave was saying above - not just cone area...
And lack of displacement would explain why headphones can reproduce the full spectrum of sound, but lack "punch"....
Vix - My in-room setup will likely be very similar to yours... And the planned "pull speakers out to listen" will probably go about the same. So this is quite useful information regarding the 1/3 into the room and listening at 2/3! I assume similar rules apply to the H-frame woofer as well, with back wall reflections somewhat killing the sound if too close... I will do a sketch in CAD, keep meaning to but forgetting to take measurements while at home. The physical size of the H-frame and OB stuff is attractive since it's more compact, but if it needs to be way out into the room to work it ends up taking up as much or more space than that damn 12lta BIB... Now, if I had a dedicated listening room.. but this is not likely to happen in the next 20 years or so
I may still try my drivers OB when they arrive, just to hear it.. but perhaps putting them in actual enclosures will be required.
12lta or 12-250tc Fane in BB-BIB "too much"? What's that?!
I was hoping that the BIB design plus large driver would have lots of punch... The new speakers MUST, err, "out-punch" (?) the existing Fisher bass reflex 3 ways with 12's, or I'll end up just listening to the old fishers. Fisher woofers don't look all that impressive either, though they are "pretty"
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GfIAAOSwc0FUpYId/s-l1600.jpg
Fisher DS-826 Speaker Review, Specs and Price |Vintage Speaker Reviews, Specs, Prices, Repairs, Refoaming, Reconing
I wonder if the 8" (like a Betsy K or something) in a BIB would be "enough" displacement...
No t/s parameters for the fisher 12"... but approximated would be something like this:
https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-212-8-12-oem-woofer-8-ohm--290-335
so Sd=525.9 cm^2
Xmax=2.5mm = .25cm (.098")
So one-way displacement is 525.9 x 2.5 = 131.5 cm^3
Compared to:
Betsy K:
Sd=22.97 in^2 = 148.19 cm^2
Xmax=~2mm=.2cm
one-way displacement = 29.6 cm^3 ---> So it may be hard for Betsy to keep up...?
Goldwood gw-1858:
Sd=1277.01cm^2
Xmax=2mm=.2cm
one-way displacement = 255.4 cm^3 --->Lots and lots of cone area, but xmax is small
Dayton Audio DS315-8 12":
Sd=506.7cm^2
Xmax=5.5mm=.55cm
one-way displacment = 278.7 cm^3 --->More xmax, so displacement is larger than the goldwood 18!
Interesting. Of course, these volumes are from Xmax, which ideally you're not hitting while jamming...
And lack of displacement would explain why headphones can reproduce the full spectrum of sound, but lack "punch"....
Vix - My in-room setup will likely be very similar to yours... And the planned "pull speakers out to listen" will probably go about the same. So this is quite useful information regarding the 1/3 into the room and listening at 2/3! I assume similar rules apply to the H-frame woofer as well, with back wall reflections somewhat killing the sound if too close... I will do a sketch in CAD, keep meaning to but forgetting to take measurements while at home. The physical size of the H-frame and OB stuff is attractive since it's more compact, but if it needs to be way out into the room to work it ends up taking up as much or more space than that damn 12lta BIB... Now, if I had a dedicated listening room.. but this is not likely to happen in the next 20 years or so
I may still try my drivers OB when they arrive, just to hear it.. but perhaps putting them in actual enclosures will be required.
12lta or 12-250tc Fane in BB-BIB "too much"? What's that?!
I was hoping that the BIB design plus large driver would have lots of punch... The new speakers MUST, err, "out-punch" (?) the existing Fisher bass reflex 3 ways with 12's, or I'll end up just listening to the old fishers. Fisher woofers don't look all that impressive either, though they are "pretty"
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GfIAAOSwc0FUpYId/s-l1600.jpg
Fisher DS-826 Speaker Review, Specs and Price |Vintage Speaker Reviews, Specs, Prices, Repairs, Refoaming, Reconing
I wonder if the 8" (like a Betsy K or something) in a BIB would be "enough" displacement...
No t/s parameters for the fisher 12"... but approximated would be something like this:
https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-212-8-12-oem-woofer-8-ohm--290-335
so Sd=525.9 cm^2
Xmax=2.5mm = .25cm (.098")
So one-way displacement is 525.9 x 2.5 = 131.5 cm^3
Compared to:
Betsy K:
Sd=22.97 in^2 = 148.19 cm^2
Xmax=~2mm=.2cm
one-way displacement = 29.6 cm^3 ---> So it may be hard for Betsy to keep up...?
Goldwood gw-1858:
Sd=1277.01cm^2
Xmax=2mm=.2cm
one-way displacement = 255.4 cm^3 --->Lots and lots of cone area, but xmax is small
Dayton Audio DS315-8 12":
Sd=506.7cm^2
Xmax=5.5mm=.55cm
one-way displacment = 278.7 cm^3 --->More xmax, so displacement is larger than the goldwood 18!
Interesting. Of course, these volumes are from Xmax, which ideally you're not hitting while jamming...
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Larger Xmax values get you into trouble too though... non-linear response stuff over my head.
Larger cone area is probably going to sound better and be less taxing on the speaker... except that larger cone area inevitably leads to larger cone mass. Catch 22...
So there is certainly some sort of balance to be struck.
Larger cone area is probably going to sound better and be less taxing on the speaker... except that larger cone area inevitably leads to larger cone mass. Catch 22...
So there is certainly some sort of balance to be struck.
Vix - I'm still tempted to do the 12lta in a BIB. It certainly is big, as it's namesake implies. But based on cone area alone, something like the goldwood 18" in a little H-frame (or sealed enclosure since it may be too close to the wall) may still be "punchier" (possibly a lot more.. though I'm unsure how much the TL/horn design might amplify the "punch" on the low end, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison). I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this...
Of course, the "punch" I keep mumbling about isn't the only thing of importance here.
Of course, the "punch" I keep mumbling about isn't the only thing of importance here.
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